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Old 11-15-2015, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
45,144 posts, read 36,338,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Among the victims :

-Mohammad Merah killed 2 muslims : Imad Ibn Ziaten, Mohammad Farah the 2 were militaries

-The Brothers Kouachi killed : Mustapha Ourrad (corrector in Charlie Hebdo, muslim when he was young then we don't know) and a police officer Ahmed Merabet (muslim)

-The Paris attack : one of the victim is the cousin of the soccer/football player Lassana Diarra (muslim)
[Lassana = Hassan in african countries]

I saw on the news that among the victims who were in hospitals waiting for their relatives some were muslims.

Among the foreigners who can be muslims there is : 2 algerians, 2 morrocans (one wounded), 2 tunisians, 1 senegalese.
(source France24)

We'll know more later i guess about the victims.

People should remember that terrorists don't care if there's some muslims among the victims.


We stand for the victims all over the world.
2 days before the Paris attack , there was a bomb attack in Lebanon too.
I agree - most of the victims of radical Islam are, at present, Muslims.

That's a pretty sad state of affairs.
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Old 11-15-2015, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonkonkomaNative View Post
Not Muslim, but I join you in condemning these acts of terrorism. These men attach themselves to the cloak of Allah(), and they are unworthy. This is not a Muslim problem, and Muslims should not have stand alone in their condemnation.
Most of the victims of the daily terrorism perpetrated by Islamic radicals are Muslims. So yes, it's a Muslim problem, on both sides of the coin.
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Old 11-15-2015, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Listener2307 View Post
Thanks for your post, Woodrow.

Even those of us who proclaim that we have no religion at all must recognize that as long as Westboro Baptist Church is allowed to call itself Christian, there must be radical mosques filled with those who will call themselves Muslim.
How many people have the handful of adherents to the ridiculous Westboro "Baptist" church killed?
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Old 11-15-2015, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
28,553 posts, read 15,494,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
1 billion people are Muslim. 1 billion.

Literally 99% of them are not violent terrorists.

Seems like YOU are defining things.
How do you believe most people outside of Islam see that religion? If people's main knowledge of Islam is through terrorism, they will make a perception that Islam is violent.

I understand that criminals are hijacking that religion to take part in a soft war - I guess I don't hear much in opposition to what they do. I don't see action against these people in Islamic countries were they train and are allowed to exist. As much as they have done around the world, these Islamic countries are allowing this behavior to persist - and to me become guilty by association.

I am not trying to be mean - just trying to be real here. At some point, there has to be more than talk. They train and are allowed to exist among the 99%.

I am just frustrated that they are doing what they are doing, and it should be easily squashed - if 99% are against it. It is what it is.
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Old 11-15-2015, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
How do you believe most people outside of Islam see that religion? If people's main knowledge of Islam is through terrorism, they will make a perception that Islam is violent.
I believe the majoity of what non-Muslims know about Islam is what they see on the media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I understand that criminals are hijacking that religion to take part in a soft war - I guess I don't hear much in opposition to what they do. I don't see action against these people in Islamic countries were they train and are allowed to exist. As much as they have done around the world, these Islamic countries are allowing this behavior to persist - and to me become guilty by association.
what are the countries are they trained in? The only Nations I am aware there are or have been Terrorist "Training Camps" are Iraq and Afghanistan. both of which are in chaos and have not recovered from war. They still have no central governments in control and are in a state of anarchy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I am not trying to be mean - just trying to be real here. At some point, there has to be more than talk. They train and are allowed to exist among the 99%.
75% of the World's Muslims live in just 5 countries Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, India and Malaysia. I have not heard of any State supported terrorist training camps being found in any of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I am just frustrated that they are doing what they are doing, and it should be easily squashed - if 99% are against it. It is what it is.
The terrorist do not seem to be coming from where most Muslims live. Nearly all terrorists seem to have had Mideastern ties which contain less than 20% of the World's Muslims
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Old 11-15-2015, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
1 billion people are Muslim. 1 billion.
Literally 99% of them are not violent terrorists.

Seems like YOU are defining things.
YOU seem to ignore reality and live in a self deceiving world.

Here is the reality [posted earlier];
1. DNA wise, All humans are 'beasts' and has beastly potential.

2. A high percentage of humans are actively beastly and evil prone [of various degrees], say 20% [Normal Curve]

3. Thus a potential pool of 20% of 300 million evil prone Muslims.
Muslim Opinion Polls - Challenging the 'Tiny Minority of Extremists' Myth

4. More than 55% of the 6,236 verses has evil laden elements [of various degrees] against non-believers.

5. The evil laden elements catalyze and inspire the evil prone Muslims into committing terrible evils an violence onto non-Muslims as supported by the glaring evidence we see from the past to the present.

The above reality of 1-4 is fact and is indisputable.
Can you prove the above wrong?

Yes, literally 99% are not extremely violent terrorists.
If only 1% [from the pool of 20% evil prone of various degrees] has very violent tendencies, note we have a potential pool of 15 million evil prone Muslims around the world hungry to feast on the evil elements that are sanction by God.
15 million!! and it only took 7 and a few supporters to carry out the Paris attacks, 18+ to do a 911 and a lone wolf is enough to create serious terrors and havoc.
It is out of the 15 million evil prone that we have tens of thousands forming ISIS and other terror groups around the world.

Btw we are not talking about merely terrorism which is VERY evil but the whole range of evils that these extremists commit upon non-Muslims, i.e. oppression, restriction of freedom of speech, infringement of the basic human rights of non-Muslims and others.

Whilst those from the 1% pool will carry out the actual evils and terrors, they have the support of the other 20%, i.e. 300 millions and others perhaps up to 50% who are the silent supporters who provide moral support to the actual terrorists and others evil prone Muslims.
Note this polls I posted above.
Muslim Opinion Polls - Challenging the 'Tiny Minority of Extremists' Myth

What is the most critical cause of the terrible evils and violence by Islamists is not the evil prone Muslims but the religion-in-part, i.e. Islam-in-part is inherently evil due to point 4 above.

Those non-Muslims [I presume] like you who failed to recognize the truth of the above reality and condemn [or are critical of] those who speak the truth are actually indirectly complicit to all the evils and terrors committed by the Islamist terrorists [who are truer Muslims literally] around the world.
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Old 11-15-2015, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post
What about the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland and those who supported them financially and with arms in the United States? Or the Sikhs bombing Air India?

If the majority of the one and a half billion Muslims were out to get us there would be a lot more than the odd terrorist attacks.

Woodrow, it doesn't matter how many Muslims condemned the terrorists attacks or how loud that condemnation is the haters will only notice those that support the terrorists.
Note my post #36 on the reality of the situation. I hope you respect whatever is the truth.
I agree there may be 'haters'* but you cannot generalize that all those who critique Islam objectively and truthfully are 'haters'.
*Btw, I don't agree with associating the term 'hate' with anything that can be changed as it should be confined to concepts [human variables] that are not easily changed, e.g. race, sex, genetic traits and the likes.

As for religious violence [to be truthful and precise] we must differentiate them as;
1. Religious-related violence - by believers who act on their own
2. Religion-inspired violence - by believers who are inspired by the immutable holy text

1. Religious-related violence
As with human nature, there will always be a percentile of people of evil prone people in any large group of people. Thus religions are no exceptions.
This is why we have Buddhists in Myanmar and elsewhere committing terrible violence on other believers, BUT there is no way any Buddhist can use their holy texts as an excuse to commit their crimes. Thus we cannot blame Buddhism as the cause of violence committed by SOME Buddhists.
This is the same for Christianity which has an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. 'love your enemies' 'give the other cheeks' etc.

2. Religion-inspired violence
Religious-inspired violence are those violence committed by the believers who are inspired directly by the holy texts of their respective religion.
At present the most prevent incidents of religion-inspired violence is from Islam, as explained objectively in post 36# above.

As a person who had failed to recognize the truth and condemn [with intention to silence] those who objectively critique the evils of Islam-in-part [the evil Muslims are not that critical] you are in fact indirectly complicit to the terrible evils and violence that are committed by SOME Islamists around the world.
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Old 11-15-2015, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Texas
43,588 posts, read 52,772,341 times
Reputation: 70912
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
YOU seem to ignore reality and live in a self deceiving world.

Here is the reality [posted earlier];
1. DNA wise, All humans are 'beasts' and has beastly potential.

2. A high percentage of humans are actively beastly and evil prone [of various degrees], say 20% [Normal Curve]

3. Thus a potential pool of 20% of 300 million evil prone Muslims.
Muslim Opinion Polls - Challenging the 'Tiny Minority of Extremists' Myth

4. More than 55% of the 6,236 verses has evil laden elements [of various degrees] against non-believers.

5. The evil laden elements catalyze and inspire the evil prone Muslims into committing terrible evils an violence onto non-Muslims as supported by the glaring evidence we see from the past to the present.

The above reality of 1-4 is fact and is indisputable.
Can you prove the above wrong?

Yes, literally 99% are not extremely violent terrorists.
If only 1% [from the pool of 20% evil prone of various degrees] has very violent tendencies, note we have a potential pool of 15 million evil prone Muslims around the world hungry to feast on the evil elements that are sanction by God.
15 million!! and it only took 7 and a few supporters to carry out the Paris attacks, 18+ to do a 911 and a lone wolf is enough to create serious terrors and havoc.
It is out of the 15 million evil prone that we have tens of thousands forming ISIS and other terror groups around the world.

Btw we are not talking about merely terrorism which is VERY evil but the whole range of evils that these extremists commit upon non-Muslims, i.e. oppression, restriction of freedom of speech, infringement of the basic human rights of non-Muslims and others.

Whilst those from the 1% pool will carry out the actual evils and terrors, they have the support of the other 20%, i.e. 300 millions and others perhaps up to 50% who are the silent supporters who provide moral support to the actual terrorists and others evil prone Muslims.
Note this polls I posted above.
Muslim Opinion Polls - Challenging the 'Tiny Minority of Extremists' Myth

What is the most critical cause of the terrible evils and violence by Islamists is not the evil prone Muslims but the religion-in-part, i.e. Islam-in-part is inherently evil due to point 4 above.

Those non-Muslims [I presume] like you who failed to recognize the truth of the above reality and condemn [or are critical of] those who speak the truth are actually indirectly complicit to all the evils and terrors committed by the Islamist terrorists [who are truer Muslims literally] around the world.
You can insert Christian to everything you wrote and leave it the same. Still works.

By the way, you are woefully uneducated on Christian text if you believe that there are none that support violence or groups who use the the Bible to fuel.oppression.

It's actually 0.001% or less. Not actually the entire 1% based on worldwide terrorism counts. I was just rounding up.

People, most especially those with XY chromosomes, are inherently selfish and violent. Shall we ban being male?
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Old 11-15-2015, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
You can insert Christian to everything you wrote and leave it the same. Still works.

By the way, you are woefully uneducated on Christian text if you believe that there are none that support violence or groups who use the the Bible to fuel oppression.
I know there are tons or more violent elements in quantity wise in the OT than in the Quran. But I was referring to the NT which has some but note I said the Overriding weighting is a ceiling limit of pacifism from the NT.

This will be the likely scenario when the evil Muslim and Christian come to face with God on Judgment Day.
God to 'evil' Christian: WTF, I told you to love your enemies, not kill them violently! You shall be given the accorded punishment for such sins.

God to the 'evil' Muslim: Yo.. give me five, you have earned your badge as a truer Muslim in compliance with my verses [all the sword verses] and I shall endow you with the greatest possible rewards, eternal life in heaven with countless virgins, etc.
[Note I can produce lot of verses from the Quran to support this point]
Quote:
It's actually 0.001% or less. Not actually the entire 1% based on worldwide
terrorism counts. I was just rounding up.
Are you sure you are good at your Maths and living in reality.
Less than 0.0001% is merely 15!
There were already 18++ doing 911.
There are tens of thousands in ISIS Syria and Iraq.
You cannot be that desperate to the extent of insulting your own competence in Maths and sense of reality.

For a sense of reality I insist you review the following polls;
slim Opinion Polls - Challenging the 'Tiny Minority of Extremists' Myth
This will give you an idea of why my 20% of evil prone in general is very conservative.

As for the very active evil-prones and those very likely to act, note this is what the professional researchers has said in terms of real human psychology.

According to Wikipedia, the DSM IV-TR gives the prevalence of psychopathy as 3% in males and 1% in females. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant...)
https://www.quora.com/What-percentag...ths-sociopaths

I hope you understand the traits and negative liabilities of what psychopathy is. Of course not every psychopath will be violent but there is a fact of a pool of potential psychopaths.
Therefore there will be at least 1%+ of psychopaths within a large group of Muslims.

As for Schizophrenia, note 1.1% of adult above 18 are likely to be schizophrenics of various degrees.
Schizophrenia Facts and Statistics

As for mental illness in general,
Approximately 1 in 5 adults in the U.S.—43.8 million, or 18.5%—experiences mental illness in a given year. 1.
https://www.google.com/#q=%25+percentage+mental+illness

Around 20% of the world's children and adolescents have mental disorders or problems ...
WHO | 10 facts on mental health


The above statistics support the fact there a large potential pool of people who could succumb to evil tendencies by themselves are influence and triggered by external secondary elements, such as violence in media, abused, parental examples, social elements or evil laden verses from holy books.

What is critical with Islam is the evil laden verses, i.e. >55 % of the 6,236 verses in the Quran, are catalytic in inspiring some of the evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence.
What is worst is religious believers are under the stress of existential desperation to do what is take to ensure their salvation in heaven with eternal life. So if the religious texts contain evil and violence elements sanction by God, this is a sure potential for religion-inspired violence by SOME evil prone believers.


Quote:
People, most especially those with XY chromosomes, are inherently selfish and violent. Shall we ban being male?
There is also the so-called 'Warrior Genes.'
As I had said, DNA wise all humans are 'beasts' and many cannot contain their beastly impulses. These are inherent traits of human nature and of course humanity must dealt with such a problem and find solutions to them.

Islamic evil elements and other evil elements from various media are secondary elements that trigger the above inherent evil elements.
At present we are not in a position [yet] to control effective the inherent DNA based elements that contribute to human violence and evils. [these are the uncontrollable variables]
Whilst we cannot control the basic inherent elements effectively [yet] we can control the secondary elements that catalyze, trigger and activate the inherent elements. This is why we have PG ratings and censorship for violent materials that are likely to influence children and adults to commit evil and violence. [these are the controllable variables]

If we can ban or limit these secondary elements [from the media, etc.] why should we not do the same with the more than 55% of evil elements [note of various degrees] in the Quran. It is because of oil or what?
Whist we cannot change our DNA [uncontrollable variable] at present [yet] we can change a person's religion [a controllable variable]. Changing or weaning off one's religion may not be easy in the short run but it can be done [not by force but voluntarily] in the intermediate future.

As for the uncontrollable variable within the DNA, I am confident humanity will someday [100, 200 or 300 years] be able to vary the human DNA to get rid [not by force but fool proof methods via genomics and other approaches] of those genes that contribute the evils and violence [religion, secular or otherwise].
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Old 11-15-2015, 10:17 PM
 
6,014 posts, read 2,307,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note my post #36 on the reality of the situation. I hope you respect whatever is the truth.
I agree there may be 'haters'* but you cannot generalize that all those who critique Islam objectively and truthfully are 'haters'.
*Btw, I don't agree with associating the term 'hate' with anything that can be changed as it should be confined to concepts [human variables] that are not easily changed, e.g. race, sex, genetic traits and the likes.

As for religious violence [to be truthful and precise] we must differentiate them as;
1. Religious-related violence - by believers who act on their own
2. Religion-inspired violence - by believers who are inspired by the immutable holy text

1. Religious-related violence
As with human nature, there will always be a percentile of people of evil prone people in any large group of people. Thus religions are no exceptions.
This is why we have Buddhists in Myanmar and elsewhere committing terrible violence on other believers, BUT there is no way any Buddhist can use their holy texts as an excuse to commit their crimes. Thus we cannot blame Buddhism as the cause of violence committed by SOME Buddhists.
This is the same for Christianity which has an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. 'love your enemies' 'give the other cheeks' etc.

2. Religion-inspired violence
Religious-inspired violence are those violence committed by the believers who are inspired directly by the holy texts of their respective religion.
At present the most prevent incidents of religion-inspired violence is from Islam, as explained objectively in post 36# above.

As a person who had failed to recognize the truth and condemn [with intention to silence] those who objectively critique the evils of Islam-in-part [the evil Muslims are not that critical] you are in fact indirectly complicit to the terrible evils and violence that are committed by SOME Islamists around the world.
I have no problem with anyone being critical of Islam, I am an atheist and believe that there is both good and bad in all the holy books. No its with people who claim that Islam is a wicked religion and ignore the evils done in the name of Christianity, I am against those who paint all Muslims as either terrorists or supporters of terrorists and I am against those who hate Muslims because they are Muslims. In the past the same has been applied to Jews, Pakistanis and First Nations people. In many Muslim countries people do not protest groups like ISIS because they do not know who around them is ISIS.

Two days before the Invasion of Iraq the Arab league meet and pleaded with the USA not to invade because it will cause instability in the region. This advise was of course ignored, Iraq was invaded and instability is widespread in the entire region. The history of the past century is full of powerful countries, USA, Britain, France and the Soviets interfering and keeping the mostly Arabs down and from that perception of being held down many radical groups have sprung up and supportEd by the local population as they were not taught the truth and they are looking for a better life.

It is easier to be critical when you live in a free and democratic country. Not so easy if you are living in a country with a strong presence of radical Muslims, lived in Rwanda during its genocide or in the former Yugoslavia and certainly n9t in the former Soviet block or Nazi Germany. And when Muslims do condemn these acts of terrorism too many of us just use this as an excuse to be even more critical of them.

We must condemn acts ot terrorism but we should also support those Muslims who also condemm those acts. We must also stand against acts of hatred and bigotry against Muslims. Attempting to burn down a mosque 8s not a sign of being critical of the religion of Islam aND we can not use acts of terrorism to justify our own acts of terrorism..
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