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Old 11-17-2015, 09:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
I've never read the Quran and don't intend to, but are there really verses in there that instruct muslims to kill non-muslims?
Well, there is this:

Quran 9:5 - 6 (If they convert to Islam, you don't have to kill them)
And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Quran), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.

And this:

Quran 33:60-61
Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time:
Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.

This:
Quran 35-37
And Allah turned back the Unbelievers for (all) their fury: no advantage did they gain; and enough is Allah for the believers in their fight. And Allah is full of Strength, able to enforce His Will.
And He caused you to inherit their land and their houses and their wealth, and land ye have not trodden. Allah is ever Able to do all things.
It seems here that Muhammed and his gang were attacking the land of these unbelievers.)

This:
Quran 8:12 - 13
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.

This (which shows that allah demanded that Muslims not retreat,, but slaughter....which is not what peaceful people would do. They would run away rather than to fight,)

Quran 8:15 - 16:
O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them.
And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah , and his refuge is Hell - and wretched is the destination.

Quran 47:4 (Does this sound peaceful?)
So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost,

Quran 21:43-45
Or have they gods that can guard them from Us? They have no power to aid themselves, nor can they be defended from Us.
Nay, We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?

Quran 9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Quran 22 19-22 (This is what allah has planned for disbelievers)
These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads,
Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted;
In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning.

Quran 5:33
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

 
Old 11-17-2015, 09:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
I've never read the Quran and don't intend to, but are there really verses in there that instruct muslims to kill non-muslims?
Besides the Quran, there are also hadiths, which tell the story of Muhammed's life. Here are some quotes from hadiths:

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)

Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried, “Muhammad with his force,” and turned tail and fled… The apostle seized the property piece by piece… (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)

These attacks were not in self defense.
 
Old 11-17-2015, 10:21 PM
 
4,414 posts, read 1,642,332 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
Why do muslim extremists yell "HALLA HACK BAR" before they open fire?
And how do you know it's a Muslim? Anyone can grow a beard, should the slogan and open fire.
 
Old 11-17-2015, 10:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
And how do you know it's a Muslim? Anyone can grow a beard, should the slogan and open fire.
Good question. There's tons of evidence. Investigations uncover where they were born, where they lived, which mosques they attended, who their family is, where they have travelled, what is on their computers.....and, they belong to Muslim terrorist groups and those groups claim responsibility. Often, if they are still alive, the terrorist will say they are Muslim.

I can't think of a single time where a terrorist was screaming about Allah and turned out to be a Christian. Do you have any examples?
 
Old 11-18-2015, 03:28 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Not necessarily. He could also be trying to intimidate Muslims that disagree with his views. Another possibility is he could be trying to demean Islam by associating the Qur'an with ISIS.

I believe if you ask a large number of Muslims you will find that the majority of us find that the Qur'an inspires peace, tolerance and tranquility, not violence.

even the "violent" ayyats when read with understanding of the Surah they occur in are to instill peace, not to justify or command violence.
While reading the Quran [probable more than 50 times] I can feel that exhortation, impulse, threats and nudging by Allah and Muhammad to defend the religion and kill non-believers [highly condemned and dehumanized].
I can feel it but of course I can psychoanalyze and deflect away such feelings objective.
However to SOME [20% = 300 million ] average vulnerable Muslims who are hanging by the skin of his teeth teetering on the verge of existential threat of extinction, they are most likely to buy what is sold by the Quran [i.e. Muhammad]. This is a proven reality with the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims as inspired by the evil laden verses Quran.

The threat to the Muslim is ending in Hell and the carrot is eternal life in heaven fill with superlative rewards [virgins for men]. Allah and Muhammad exhort Muslims to defend Islam especially in foreign lands and one is made to be like a coward if the Muslim do not strive for the cause of Allah with his wealth and his life.
9:41. [O ye Muslims] Go forth, light armed and heavy armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you [Muslim] if ye but knew.
To verify the above read the Medinian verses in chronological order ending with chapter 9.
 
Old 11-18-2015, 06:06 AM
 
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Why is it that the VAST majority of terrorist acts committed around the world (not 100% of them, but almost all) are by muslims?

It's not just weird coincidence.

Every time you see something about a terrorist act on TV, even before you hear any details, it's almost automatically assumed to be muslims in the name of islam.

What the hell is wrong with your religion!
 
Old 11-18-2015, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
Why is it that the VAST majority of terrorist acts committed around the world (not 100% of them, but almost all) are by muslims?

It's not just weird coincidence.

Every time you see something about a terrorist act on TV, even before you hear any details, it's almost automatically assumed to be muslims in the name of islam.

What the hell is wrong with your religion!
Actually the majority of acts of Terrorism are not by Muslims. The acts of terrorism by Muslims are the only ones the world labels as being "Religion Motivated"

But the Most violence is by non-Muslims, the US alone averages over 14,000 murders annually but as they are not done by Muslims they are not counted as Terrorism

Since the first of this year there has been at least one mass shooting a week. In the past 3 years nearly one mass shooting every day. Over 10 times the deaths of the Paris attacks. But these are not by Muslims so therefore do not count as terrorism

Quote:
994 mass shootings in 1,004 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like

The Oregon school shooting is evidence that the US response to gun violence ‘has become routine’, Barack Obama says. The data compiled by the crowd-sourced site Mass Shooting Tracker reveals an even more shocking human toll: there is a mass shooting – defined as four or more people shot in one incident – nearly every day
994 mass shootings in 1,004 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like | US news | The Guardian
That is in the US alone


World wide Terrorism by Non-Muslims is epidemic. But since they are not by Muslim they do not Qualify to be called terrorism.

This next one is actually from a site I consider unreliable. But since when ever Walid Shoebat says something against Muslims the anti-Islamic sites consider his words the "Gospel Truth"

Quote:
The Mexican Drug Cartel “El Chapo” Butchers Christians In Mexico And Now Is Bringing His Terrorist Family Into America To Get U.S. Citizenship
By Shoebat Foundation on July 14, 2015 in Featured, General

By Walid Shoebat

“Neither the government nor priests can handle El Chapo” was a warning sent by Joaquin Guzman (El-Chapo) to what he considered his two biggest threats at the time: Christian priests and the government.

To ensure he was taken seriously, the note accompanied two corpses: soldiers that he arranged to be killed so everyone gets the message: you need to fear the drug cartel of Sinaloa, especially the infamous El Chapo.

The message was sent in response to Hector Gonzalez, the archbishop of the northern state of Durango, who raised fears of attacks on the clergy. Indeed, according to the Catholic Multimedia Center (CCM) Mexico is the most dangerous country in Latin America for priests.





SOURCE


world wide there is considerably more violence by non-Muslims than by Muslims. But only violence by Muslims is labeled "Terrorism" Therefore there is more Terrorism by Muslims as only violence by Muslims is consistently labeled terrorism.
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Old 11-18-2015, 11:56 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,221 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Actually the majority of acts of Terrorism are not by Muslims. The acts of terrorism by Muslims are the only ones the world labels as being "Religion Motivated"

But the Most violence is by non-Muslims, the US alone averages over 14,000 murders annually but as they are not done by Muslims they are not counted as Terrorism

Since the first of this year there has been at least one mass shooting a week. In the past 3 years nearly one mass shooting every day. Over 10 times the deaths of the Paris attacks. But these are not by Muslims so therefore do not count as terrorism



That is in the US alone


World wide Terrorism by Non-Muslims is epidemic. But since they are not by Muslim they do not Qualify to be called terrorism.

This next one is actually from a site I consider unreliable. But since when ever Walid Shoebat says something against Muslims the anti-Islamic sites consider his words the "Gospel Truth"






SOURCE


world wide there is considerably more violence by non-Muslims than by Muslims. But only violence by Muslims is labeled "Terrorism" Therefore there is more Terrorism by Muslims as only violence by Muslims is consistently labeled terrorism.
Do you want to take my challenge? We'll compare occurrences of Deadly Islamic terrorist attacks with Deadly Christian terrorist attacks. You keep declining. We can even make it Deadly atheist terrorist attacks, or deadly Wiccan terrorist attacks, or Scientology, or Buddhist.

The point is, you want to bundle all other crime, done by anyone, into a terror attack. Drug wars, family violence, robberies, nut cases..... You can't compare apples and oranges. These things are not terrorism. What happened and is happening in Paris is not comparable to a family violence incident, or a nut job firing on a crowd.

Terrorism:
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investi...ism-definition

I am ready to proceed with the challenge any time.
 
Old 11-18-2015, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
While reading the Quran [probable more than 50 times] I can feel that exhortation, impulse, threats and nudging by Allah and Muhammad to defend the religion and kill non-believers [highly condemned and dehumanized].
I can feel it but of course I can psychoanalyze and deflect away such feelings objective.
However to SOME [20% = 300 million ] average vulnerable Muslims who are hanging by the skin of his teeth teetering on the verge of existential threat of extinction, they are most likely to buy what is sold by the Quran [i.e. Muhammad]. This is a proven reality with the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims as inspired by the evil laden verses Quran.

The threat to the Muslim is ending in Hell and the carrot is eternal life in heaven fill with superlative rewards [virgins for men]. Allah and Muhammad exhort Muslims to defend Islam especially in foreign lands and one is made to be like a coward if the Muslim do not strive for the cause of Allah with his wealth and his life.
9:41. [O ye Muslims] Go forth, light armed and heavy armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you [Muslim] if ye but knew.
To verify the above read the Medinian verses in chronological order ending with chapter 9.
There is not much mention of virgins in the Qur'an. Actually all that is said is that those entering heaven (male and female) will be greeted by companions of high virture and for them servants will be created to serve their every wish.

Although the Surah are classified as Medina or Mecca based upon the revealed date of the first ayyat in a surah. the first Ayyat, is not always the first ayyat of a surah, in reference to the date revealed. Most if not all of the Medinah Surah contain ayyats that were revealed in Mecca and elsewhere. Each Surah has to be considered a separate book being worked on over a 27 year period and most not completed until shortly before tje death of Muhammad(saws)

If reading the Qur'an multiple times indicates proficiency in Islam, that makes me a blooming Qur'anic genius. From May 2005 until today I have read the Qur'an in Arabic one Juz per day which means the full Qur'an each month for 10 years 5 Months =125 times in addition to reading multiple translations in English, French and German. Prior to leaving Christianity in 1985 I know I read the Qur'an at least 50 times in Arabic to enble me to debate Muslims during my Evangelical reign of terror as a Christian Missionary in the Mideast and North Africa. I did not read any translations until after accepting Islam

The members of ISIS seem to be more motivated by the promise of earthly wealth and power than by the Qur'an.

Many, probably most of us Muslims feel the Qur'an inspires Peace and tranquility, not violence.

The surat frequently quoted as being violent is Surat 9. Surat 9 was revealed at a time of considerable conflict. There were many attempts made to destroy Islam. The Muslims had been infiltrated by many people that claimed to have accepted Islam, but in reality sought to destroy Muhammad. Also it was a discouraging time for Islam

Even 9:41 instills peace when you read the entire paragraph and not one sentence. One must remember the reasons behind it. Ayyat 9:41 actually should be read as 38-72. It deals with the promises and rewards that those who perevere and live a pious life will gain and enjoy.

Reading just 38- 44 we have:

Quote:

O ye who believe! What aileth you that when it is said unto you: Go forth in the way of Allah, ye are bowed down to the ground with heaviness. Take ye pleasure in the life of the world rather than in the Hereafter? The comfort of the life of the world is but little in the Hereafter.
If ye go not forth He will afflict you with a painful doom, and will choose instead of you a folk other then you. Ye cannot harm Him at all. Allah is Able to do all things.
If ye help him not, still Allah helped him when those who disbelieve drove him forth, the second of two; when they two were in the cave, when he said unto his comrade: Grieve not. Lo! Allah is with us. Then Allah caused His peace of reassurance to descend upon him and supported him with hosts ye cannot see, and made the word of those who disbelieved the nethermost, while Allah's word it was that became the uppermost. Allah is Mighty, Wise. -
Go forth, light armed and heavy armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew. -
Had it been a near adventure and an easy journey they had followed thee, but the distance seemed too far for them. Yet will they swear by Allah (saying): If we had been able we would surely have set out with you. They destroy their souls, and Allah knoweth that they verily are liars. -
Allah forgive thee (O Muhammad)! Wherefore didst thou grant them leave ere those who told the truth were manifest to thee and thou didst know the liars? -
Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day ask no leave of thee lest they should strive with their wealth and their lives. Allah is Aware of those who keep their duty (unto Him). -
-
It is basically a pep talk and a reminder. That was given to a people when they were in great dispair.
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Old 11-18-2015, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is not much mention of virgins in the Qur'an. Actually all that is said is that those entering heaven (male and female) will be greeted by companions of high virture and for them servants will be created to serve their every wish.
Relative to the 6,236 verses, the verses on virgins are not many but they are of great significance to the male Muslims. If you read those verses in context, the intended reference is to virgins.
Many of the verses mentioned pure companions but there are verses that mentioned maidens as companions.
78:33. And maidens for companions,
Maiden =a girl or young unmarried woman;
Maiden | Define Maiden at Dictionary.com

Why is gender implicated here? That can only imply sex [obviously for sexually active males] which is imperative part of life and thus also heaven.

Note the verses on 'virgins' are amplified in the Hadith with the concept of eternal virgin and permanent erections. After every penetration the maiden is refresh as a 'virgin.'

'High virtue' ?? there is no need to mention this as all Muslims who are in heaven are by default of high virtues in the eyes of Allah.

What is most noticeable in this discussion is "you" and your psychology of confirmation bias, inoculation theory and whatever it take to defend your position and religious sanity.



Quote:
Although the Surah are classified as Medina or Mecca based upon the revealed
date of the first ayyat in a surah. the first Ayyat, is not always the first
ayyat of a surah, in reference to the date revealed. Most if not all of the
Medinah Surah contain ayyats that were revealed in Mecca and elsewhere. Each
Surah has to be considered a separate book being worked on over a 27 year period
and most not completed until shortly before tje death of Muhammad(saws)
The Quran that came out of Muhammad's mind and mouth has to be chronological. Muhammad actual life is chronological. Whilst it may not be exact it is not difficult to arrange the contents and the chapters as close as possible in chronological order. It is obvious what Muhammad recited earlier [say in 610-623] can be repeated later in 628-632. There is no issue in this at all using various justification methods.

Quote:
If reading the Qur'an multiple times indicates proficiency in Islam, that makes
me a blooming Qur'anic genius. From May 2005 until today I have read the Qur'an
in Arabic one Juz per day which means the full Qur'an each month for 10 years 5
Months =125 times in addition to reading multiple translations in English,
French and German. Prior to leaving Christianity in 1985 I know I read the
Qur'an at least 50 times in Arabic to enble me to debate Muslims during my
Evangelical reign of terror as a Christian Missionary in the Mideast and North
Africa. I did not read any translations until after accepting Islam
It is obvious there is a difference between reading and understanding. Thus reading a million times does not imply thorough reading of a book.
However there is a difference for me and anyone if they say they read it once, twice and 50 times. As for me I take the trouble to understand every chapter, every sentence and every critical word in the Quran as thoroughly as possible. Then I interpret the Quran in its whole context and with every aspect of reality. Besides I have done lots of details analysis of the Quran from various perspectives. In addition I am referring to more than 45 English translations of the Quran.

From my discussions with you, I am sure you have not come across many non-Muslims like me [& Juju] who had taken such an in depth seriousness with the Quran. [thanks to you for your many assistance and discussions].
I have taken the trouble to smoothen every sentence and every verses so that when I read I can read through it fast with high understanding of the chapters.

Quote:
The members of ISIS seem to be more motivated by the promise of earthly wealth
and power than by the Qur'an.
I think you should be aware your own narrow views cannot be trusted. The Quran favored martyrs and always put the hereafter as more rewarding than life in this world. Surely you should know that. All it need is for 1 million jihadists [in reality more than 1 million out of 1.5 billion] to buy into this to set the world afire.

Quote:
Many, probably most of us Muslims feel the Qur'an inspires Peace and
tranquility, not violence.
Being holed in a very tall silo in the middle of USA, your 'many' cannot be reliable and credible.

Quote:
The surat frequently quoted as being violent is Surat 9. Surat 9 was revealed at a time of considerable conflict. There were many attempts made to destroy Islam. The Muslims had been infiltrated by many people that claimed to have accepted Islam, but in reality sought to destroy Muhammad. Also it was a discouraging time for Islam

Even 9:41 instills peace when you read the entire paragraph and not one sentence. One must remember the reasons behind it. Ayyat 9:41 actually should be read as 38-72. It deals with the promises and rewards that those who perevere and live a pious life will gain and enjoy.

Reading just 38- 44 we have:

It is basically a pep talk and a reminder. That was given to a people when they were in great despair.
Whilst I quoted 9:41 I did not say chapter 9 is the determinant violent chapter. I said one has to the read all the Medinian chapters in one go then one will feel the sense of anger and 'hatred' for the dehumanized non-Muslims and wanting to express one's anger against them.
Nevertheless final Chapter 9 is the 'spearhead' of Islam for those [minority of 300 millions] who are inclined toward violence.
The point as I had always mentioned is there are 20% of evil prone Muslims [as in any large group of people], i.e. 300 million.
All we need is for 50,000 out of this 300 million potentials to seriously buy into the imbue violent ethos of the Medinian phase evils. This is highly possible and it is already a reality from the past to the present.

However even reading 9:38-44 there are evil impulses.
Obviously [knowing your state] you will not see it.

The Quran is a two-faces reality of good and evil and it depend on who [of certain psychological state] is reading it.
If one has a good disposition, they will most likely to see good, but the person who is evil prone will definitely be inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran. This is a fact one cannot deny. This is why a religion or spiritual book should not have any active and leading evil laden element at all [like Buddhism and others].

I presume you are familiar with the Rorschach test or Inkblot Test.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_test
Where people are given an image and different people with different psychological states will interpret the image differently.
The Rorschach test or Inkblot Test is a psychological test in which subjects' perceptions of inkblots are recorded and then analyzed using psychological interpretation, complex algorithms, or both. Some psychologists use this test to examine a person's personality characteristics and emotional functioning. It has been employed to detect underlying thought disorder, especially in cases where patients are reluctant to describe their thinking processes openly. The test is named after its creator, Swiss psychologist Hermann Rorschach.
The Quran is not an inkblot but a holy book with it share of good and evil [>55%] contents.
Thus the Quran is dualistic and has two truths of either good or evil as like the duck-rabbit image below.



There is only one image above but there are two truths in it.
Depending on one's perspectives and various angles one will either see a duck or a rabbit but never two at the same time.

Objectively there is no denying the Quran contains both the good and evil elements within the same book, ethos and the life of Muhammad.
The fact is 20% of Muslims [as with any large group of humans] are evil prone, that is a frightening pool of 300 million evil prone [of various degrees] Muslims.

Factually and psychologically many from this 300 million are likely to be influenced by the evil laden elements to commit real terrors, evils and violence on non-Muslims and even Muslims. This is already a reality from past to the present and there is nothing much humanity can do about it as long as the Quran remain within the consciousness of 1.5++ billion Muslims.
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