U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 11-20-2015, 10:15 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
Reputation: 435

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
Wasn't Aisha only 8 or 9? Man, that mohammed dude's got nothing on Jared Fogle....
She was six when he 'married' her and she was 9 when Muhammed started having sex with her (and Muhammed was 53).

SAHIH AL-BUKHARI

Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)

Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)


Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88)

SAHIH MUSLIM

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3309; see also 3310)

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

 
Old 11-23-2015, 07:51 AM
 
4,015 posts, read 5,062,679 times
Reputation: 3897
child molester.
 
Old 11-23-2015, 09:15 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
child molester.
Yes, today he would be in jail. The worst part is that Muhammed is the example for Muslims to follow. This is why you see child brides and horrible abuse in the middle east today....in the name of Muhammed. The mass rapes of girls and women also comes from the examples Muhammed set.
 
Old 11-23-2015, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Here is an interesting point on why SOME Muslims are killing non-Muslims;

Moreover, that most Muslims do not engage directly in such violence, or may even condemn it, does not change the fundamental doctrines that justify it, no more than the millions of Catholic women who use birth control invalidate the church’s doctrine against contraception.


The doctrine of jihad has been part of Islam from its beginning, enjoined by the Koran and Hadith, and confirmed and celebrated by the most eminent Islamic historians, jurisprudents, and theologians.


One of the most famous, the late-14th century writer Ibn Khaldun, wrote in the Muqaddimah,
“In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force.”


When we see Muslims in the 21st century killing and dying in service to this traditional religious imperative created in the 7th century, it is perverse blindness to claim that there is no connection between Islam and Islamic terrorism.
-Bruce Thornton

 
Old 11-23-2015, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is an interesting point on why SOME Muslims are killing non-Muslims;

Moreover, that most Muslims do not engage directly in such violence, or may even condemn it, does not change the fundamental doctrines that justify it, no more than the millions of Catholic women who use birth control invalidate the church’s doctrine against contraception.


The doctrine of jihad has been part of Islam from its beginning, enjoined by the Koran and Hadith, and confirmed and celebrated by the most eminent Islamic historians, jurisprudents, and theologians.


One of the most famous, the late-14th century writer Ibn Khaldun, wrote in the Muqaddimah,
“In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force.”


When we see Muslims in the 21st century killing and dying in service to this traditional religious imperative created in the 7th century, it is perverse blindness to claim that there is no connection between Islam and Islamic terrorism.
-Bruce Thornton

While you will see many probably most Muslims speak of Jihad one does need to take into consideration what is meant by the word Jihad.. The Basic Meaning of Jihad is "Struggle" there are very few instances where a Muslim means a "Physical Struggle" for most people the only jihad they will ever take part in is the "Greater jihad" which is our own struggle against the temptations we constantly face.

Also Jihad need not entail violence. Jihad can be fought most times with words and the presentation of facts.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 11-23-2015, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While you will see many probably most Muslims speak of Jihad one does need to take into consideration what is meant by the word Jihad.. The Basic Meaning of Jihad is "Struggle" there are very few instances where a Muslim means a "Physical Struggle" for most people the only jihad they will ever take part in is the "Greater jihad" which is our own struggle against the temptations we constantly face.

Also Jihad need not entail violence. Jihad can be fought most times with words and the presentation of facts.
You missed the point. It is not about the word but the actual acts of terrors, evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims.


The central point of the post was,

Moreover, that most Muslims do not engage directly in such violence, or may even condemn it, does not change the fundamental doctrines that justify it [the violence],
In this case one can called it by whatever term 'Jihad' or otherwise, but the main concept of importance is with reference to 'violence by SOME Muslims' as sanction by Allah within whatever the justifications [often vague]. It is not about the term 'jihad' in general.


The point was, while the majority of Muslims >80% do not commit violence, this does not absolve Islam [in part] from being inherently evil and violent.


All Muslims must be like most smokers [you're familiar with this] today who continue to smoke regardless of the warnings even when they are fully aware of the inherent malignant dangers of smoking per-se. Most parents who smoked from young and are caught into it will often advise their children not to take up smoking because the fact that cigarettes has malignant potentials.


As such, Muslims, while they must continue to believe in Islam for various reasons, they must at the same time acknowledge the fact that Islam [in part] is inherently evil which is undeniable.
 
Old 11-24-2015, 05:04 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You missed the point. It is not about the word but the actual acts of terrors, evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims.


The central point of the post was,
Moreover, that most Muslims do not engage directly in such violence, or may even condemn it, does not change the fundamental doctrines that justify it [the violence],
In this case one can called it by whatever term 'Jihad' or otherwise, but the main concept of importance is with reference to 'violence by SOME Muslims' as sanction by Allah within whatever the justifications [often vague]. It is not about the term 'jihad' in general.


The point was, while the majority of Muslims >80% do not commit violence, this does not absolve Islam [in part] from being inherently evil and violent.


All Muslims must be like most smokers [you're familiar with this] today who continue to smoke regardless of the warnings even when they are fully aware of the inherent malignant dangers of smoking per-se. Most parents who smoked from young and are caught into it will often advise their children not to take up smoking because the fact that cigarettes has malignant potentials.


As such, Muslims, while they must continue to believe in Islam for various reasons, they must at the same time acknowledge the fact that Islam [in part] is inherently evil which is undeniable.
Each person is responsible for their own beliefs and actions. Being led by any book or person to commit an evil act is their choice and they alone are accountable.

It also muxt be noted that most of the world's Muslims do not read the Qur'an in English.

If you can read French, I urge you to read a French translation. the connotations come out somewhat different.

For example 2:191-193

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. - 2:191 (Picktall) -

But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. - 2:192 (Picktall) -

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. - 2:193 (Picktall) -

but in French is:

Et tuez-les, où que vous les rencontriez; et chassez-les d'où ils vous ont chassés: l'association est plus grave que le meurtre. Mais ne les combattez pas près de la Mosquée sacrée avant qu'ils ne vous y aient combattus. S'ils vous y combattent, tuez-les donc. Telle est la rétribution des mécréants. - 2:191 (French)

S'ils cessent, Allah est, certes, Pardonneur et Miséricordieux. - 2:192 (French)

Et combattez-les jusqu'à ce qu'il n'y ait plus d'association et que la religion soit entièrement à Allah seul. S'ils cessent, donc plus d'hostilités, sauf contre les injustes. - 2:193 (French)

No where near as violent as in English and actually contains quite a bit of uncerstanding. Reading the three ayyats in French as a single thought The over all understanding is that one should not harm the unjust and only fight the agressors, but to first allow them to change their ways.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 11-24-2015, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Each person is responsible for their own beliefs and actions. Being led by any book or person to commit an evil act is their choice and they alone are accountable.

It also muxt be noted that most of the world's Muslims do not read the Qur'an in English.

If you can read French, I urge you to read a French translation. the connotations come out somewhat different.

For example 2:191-193

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. - 2:191 (Picktall) -

But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. - 2:192 (Picktall) -

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. - 2:193 (Picktall) -

but in French is:

Et tuez-les, où que vous les rencontriez; et chassez-les d'où ils vous ont chassés: l'association est plus grave que le meurtre. Mais ne les combattez pas près de la Mosquée sacrée avant qu'ils ne vous y aient combattus. S'ils vous y combattent, tuez-les donc. Telle est la rétribution des mécréants. - 2:191 (French)

S'ils cessent, Allah est, certes, Pardonneur et Miséricordieux. - 2:192 (French)

Et combattez-les jusqu'à ce qu'il n'y ait plus d'association et que la religion soit entièrement à Allah seul. S'ils cessent, donc plus d'hostilités, sauf contre les injustes. - 2:193 (French)

No where near as violent as in English and actually contains quite a bit of uncerstanding. Reading the three ayyats in French as a single thought The over all understanding is that one should not harm the unjust and only fight the agressors, but to first allow them to change their ways.
I undertand the ultimate is based on one's effort and responsibility.
BUT, there is no way an individual can be a Muslim effectively without consultation with others [experts and otherwise]. Note my thread on this point;
Islam is Personal and Shared
Btw, I'd appreciate if you could read that OP as I have a question on something re Arabic therein.


Re translated Quran, I have mentioned I usually refer to more than 45 English translations of the Quran. Therein you will find there is a range of psychological mode in their interpretation. Some are very extremes in terms of aggression while some are very genial and gentle in the interpretation to suit their biasness. One will note the Quran translated by the Ahamadiya, Sufi and some others are very mild.
This is why I prefer to read Pickthall's version [more in tuned to the original martial ethos of Muhammad] which was translated earlier and thus not very likely to be influenced by current biasness.


Now you are merely giving one French translation of the Quran and if you said it is mild and not aggressive, it is most likely not to be in line with the original ethos of Muhammad and Islam. It is most likely polished by the translator to suit his own biasness.


It is not the question of whether is it the English translations or not but whether the translation reflect the original ethos. You were saying [one point] most of the problem of evils and violence are from Middle Easterners. Are you saying they are reading the English version [your claim that the English version is more violent inclined than the French]? I am sure the clergies who influence the Middle Easterners to commit terrible evils are reading from the Arabic Quran.


So your argument for me to read the French translations is useless.
 
Old 11-25-2015, 06:05 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I undertand the ultimate is based on one's effort and responsibility.
BUT, there is no way an individual can be a Muslim effectively without consultation with others [experts and otherwise]. Note my thread on this point;
Islam is Personal and Shared
Btw, I'd appreciate if you could read that OP as I have a question on something re Arabic therein.


Re translated Quran, I have mentioned I usually refer to more than 45 English translations of the Quran. Therein you will find there is a range of psychological mode in their interpretation. Some are very extremes in terms of aggression while some are very genial and gentle in the interpretation to suit their biasness. One will note the Quran translated by the Ahamadiya, Sufi and some others are very mild.
This is why I prefer to read Pickthall's version [more in tuned to the original martial ethos of Muhammad] which was translated earlier and thus not very likely to be influenced by current biasness.


Now you are merely giving one French translation of the Quran and if you said it is mild and not aggressive, it is most likely not to be in line with the original ethos of Muhammad and Islam. It is most likely polished by the translator to suit his own biasness.


It is not the question of whether is it the English translations or not but whether the translation reflect the original ethos. You were saying [one point] most of the problem of evils and violence are from Middle Easterners. Are you saying they are reading the English version [your claim that the English version is more violent inclined than the French]? I am sure the clergies who influence the Middle Easterners to commit terrible evils are reading from the Arabic Quran.


So your argument for me to read the French translations is useless.
All Muslims are to to do their best to learn to read the original Arabic. In a mosque only the Qur'anic Arabic is recited. Translations are best considered commentaries by the Author, rather than accurate translations. Qur'anic Arabic is actually easier to Learn than spoken Arabic as it has a very small vocabulary and very much repetition with each word used in multiple forms. If one can Master Juz 30 (Surah 78-114) They will encounter over 85% of the vocabulary used in the Qur'an. A person studying to be Hafiz begins by memorizing Juz 30.

Most Muslims learn the Qur'an by first mastering reading the Arabic and then learn the meanings by studying the commentary of scholars, past and present. Only after that will they begin studying various translation in their native language.

I find the French Translation to be closer to the Arabic, possibly because the French have had considerable exposure to to Arabs with the French occupations of North Africa. I do reccommend any French translation over English, if a person reads French reasonably well.

Pickthal and Ali were both highly influenced by the Elizabethan English of the KJV and felt that was the proper English to use for any Holy Text.

Pickthalls Translation "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur'an: an Explanatory Translation" is more of an interpretation than a translation.

Abdullah Yusuf Ali Wrote His Translations shortly after Pickthall's translation. His use of Elizabethan English reflects his being influenced by Pickthall and his learning English in India.

He actually wrote several translations the ones I am familiar with are:

"The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an"

"An English Interpretation of the Holy Qur'an"

"The Holy Qur'an Text and Translation"

"The Koran"

"English Translation of the Holy Qur'an"

"Holy Quran"

"The Meanings of the Illustrious Quran"

"Meanings of the Glorious Quran"

Ali's translations have subtle differences as they are interpretations rather than translations. His interpretations changed slightly as he learned more English. He does seem to have grasped much of the meaning, but at the expense of not being accurate translations.

Some of his interpretations might be more more accurately considered commentary.

The Translation most recommended by Saudi Scholars is "The Noble Quran" printed in Saudi also called the "Hilali-Khan Translation" It is one I do not like, I personally find too much Wahhabi influence in it and it seems to be based upon MSA (Modern Standard Arabic) rather then Qur'anic Arabic..
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
 
Old 11-25-2015, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Ex-Bostonian in Woodstock, GA
706 posts, read 598,641 times
Reputation: 873
Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
I've never read the Quran and don't intend to, but are there really verses in there that instruct muslims to kill non-muslims?

If so, how do peaceful, non-radical muslims interpret this?
No, it does not. People on the far right try to "interpret and translate" what they want the Quran to say.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top