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Old 11-22-2015, 05:31 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Exactly.

Those who quote the verses of the Surat 9 saying muslims can lie or break treaties as they wish just because the others people are disbelievers are :

- Dishonest people who don't give an explanation for the end of the treaties.
- People who have never read the Surat except some verses they found in some websites.


9.4 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).

9.6 And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

9.7 (...) So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty.

You are deceptive in leaving out 9:1-3, i.e. [mine]
9:1. Freedom from obligation [immunity] (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those [infidels] of the idolaters [infidels] with whom ye [Muslims] made a treaty:


9:2. Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye [infidels] cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound [disgrace, shame, humiliate] the disbelievers [infidels] (in His guidance).


9:3. And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage [alhajji in Mecca] that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters [infidels], and (so is) His messenger [Muhammad].
So, if ye [infidels] repent, it will be better for you; but if ye [infidels] are averse, then know that ye [infidels] cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those [infidels] who disbelieve.


9:4. Excepting those [infidels] of the idolaters [infidels] with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your [Muslims'] right [have not failed in their committments] nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them [infidels] till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those [Muslims] who keep their duty (unto Him).


Note Chapter 9 is the last chapter in chronological order.


The above 9:1-4 is interpreted as Muslims are free [they can break the treaty] from obligations of all treaty made with non-Muslims except those stipulated in 9:4 i.e. except with infidels who
i. have since abated nothing of your [Muslims'] right [have not failed in their committments] nor
ii. have supported anyone against you.


Other than the two conditions stated in 9:4 Muslims then can break all treaties made with the infidels. If there had been 1000s of treaty [contracts] of whatever, the Muslims would take the opportunity to break them because the conditions are so vague.


From Chapter 9 onward Muhammad was so vengeful [full of anger and hatred] and therefrom he and his followers unleashed the reign of terror mercilessly unto to non-Muslims that had continued to the present.




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Old 11-22-2015, 06:11 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are deceptive in leaving out 9:1-3, i.e. [mine]
9:1. Freedom from obligation [immunity] (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those [infidels] of the idolaters [infidels] with whom ye [Muslims] made a treaty:


9:2. Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye [infidels] cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound [disgrace, shame, humiliate] the disbelievers [infidels] (in His guidance).


9:3. And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage [alhajji in Mecca] that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters [infidels], and (so is) His messenger [Muhammad].
So, if ye [infidels] repent, it will be better for you; but if ye [infidels] are averse, then know that ye [infidels] cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those [infidels] who disbelieve.


9:4. Excepting those [infidels] of the idolaters [infidels] with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your [Muslims'] right [have not failed in their committments] nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them [infidels] till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those [Muslims] who keep their duty (unto Him).


Note Chapter 9 is the last chapter in chronological order.


The above 9:1-4 is interpreted as Muslims are free [they can break the treaty] from obligations of all treaty made with non-Muslims except those stipulated in 9:4 i.e. except with infidels who
i. have since abated nothing of your [Muslims'] right [have not failed in their committments] nor
ii. have supported anyone against you.


Other than the two conditions stated in 9:4 Muslims then can break all treaties made with the infidels. If there had been 1000s of treaty [contracts] of whatever, the Muslims would take the opportunity to break them because the conditions are so vague.


From Chapter 9 onward Muhammad was so vengeful [full of anger and hatred] and therefrom he and his followers unleashed the reign of terror mercilessly unto to non-Muslims that had continued to the present.




One needs to be aware that Ayyats 9:1-12 where a proclamation to all Muslims that the Mushrikuns had violated the treaty under which they lived in Mecca, For that reason the treaty is Null and the Mushrikun are given one year (the complition of the 4 sacred Months which are the months of Ramadan, Muharram, Rabee’ Al-Awwal and Shawwaal it takes a full year to pass through all 4 of the sacred Months.

At the end of the year it would be considered an act of war for a Mushrikun to be in Mecca.

The treaty which the Mushrikun had required that they not stop the Muslims from performing Hajj. They stopped the Muslims from coming to Mecca for Hajj and that nullified the treaty.

Quote:

n 628, Muhammad and his followers wanted to enter Mecca for pilgrimage, but were blocked by the Quraysh. Subsequently, Muslims and Meccans entered into the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah, whereby the Quraysh promised to cease fighting Muslims and promised that Muslims would be allowed into the city to perform the pilgrimage the following year. It was meant to be a ceasefire for 10 years. However, just two years later, the Quraysh violated the truce by slaughtering a group of Muslims and their allies. Muhammad and his companions, now 10,000 strong, marched into Mecca. However, instead of continuing their fight, the city of Mecca surrendered to Muhammad, who declared peace and amnesty for its inhabitants. The pagan imagery was destroyed by Muhammad's followers and the location Islamized and rededicated to the worship of God. Mecca was declared as the holiest site in Islam ordaining it as the center of Muslim pilgrimage, one of the faith's Five Pillars. Then, Muhammad returned to Medina, after assigning Akib ibn Usaid as governor of the city. His other activities in Arabia led to the unification of the peninsula.[35][49]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca
The Quraysh were Mushrikun (Idol worshppers) I am not certain when Mecca was closed to all non-Muslims I have read some stories of Christians still living there in the 10th Century.
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Old 11-22-2015, 07:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are deceptive in leaving out 9:1-3, i.e. [mine]




Woodrow LI already gave that verse 9.1 and he explained the context.

I gave the other verses explaining why they ended the treaty.
There's nothing complicated here.



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Old 11-22-2015, 07:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post


From Chapter 9 onward Muhammad was so vengeful [full of anger and hatred] and therefrom he and his followers unleashed the reign of terror mercilessly unto to non-Muslims that had continued to the present.


The last chapter was the 114 by the way.


Muhammad emphasized on refraining from fighting unless Quresh attacked. The Muslim army entered Mecca on Monday, 11 December 629.

The entry was peaceful and bloodless entry on three sectors except for that of Khalid's column. The hardened anti-Muslims like Ikrimah and Sufwan gathered a band of Quresh fighters and faced Khalid's column.

The Quresh attacked the Muslims with swords and bows, and the Muslims charged the Quresh's positions. After a short skirmish the Quresh gave ground after losing twelve men. Muslim losses were two warriors.


Then, along with his companions Muhammad visited the Kaaba. The idols were broken and their gods were destroyed.




Then Muhammad turning to the people said:
"O Quraish, what do you think of the treatment that I should accord you?"

And they said, "Mercy, O Prophet of Allah. We expect nothing but good from you."


Thereupon Muhammad declared:
"I speak to you in the same words as Yūsuf spoke to his brothers. This day there is no reproof against you; Go your way, for you are free."






Ten people were ordered to be killed who had been guilty of murder or other offences or had sparked off the war and disrupted the peace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Mecca



Muhammad was so bad !
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Old 11-22-2015, 06:49 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
One needs to be aware that Ayyats 9:1-12 where a proclamation to all Muslims that the Mushrikuns had violated the treaty under which they lived in Mecca, For that reason the treaty is Null and the Mushrikun are given one year (the complition of the 4 sacred Months which are the months of Ramadan, Muharram, Rabee’ Al-Awwal and Shawwaal it takes a full year to pass through all 4 of the sacred Months.

At the end of the year it would be considered an act of war for a Mushrikun to be in Mecca.

The treaty which the Mushrikun had required that they not stop the Muslims from performing Hajj. They stopped the Muslims from coming to Mecca for Hajj and that nullified the treaty.

The Quraysh were Mushrikun (Idol worshppers) I am not certain when Mecca was closed to all non-Muslims I have read some stories of Christians still living there in the 10th Century.
You are mixing and conflating perspectives here thus ending with a mess.


1. First you are a Muslim as an adherent of the religion [& way of life] of Islam.
2. The central authority of Islam is the Quran-MGA-610 and nothing else.
3. The Quran as the final words of Allah contain all the necessary doctrines [principles not forms] that is necessary for a person to be a Muslim proper.


4. Chapter 9 of the Quran is the words of Allah and thus a Muslim and no one can change the words of Allah.


5. 'History is always written by the winners' [& others] who are humans and will never reflect the actual truth.


6. Thus your attempt to use history,
Woodrow wrote: One needs to be aware that Ayyats 9:1-12 where a proclamation to all Muslims that the Mushrikuns had violated the treaty under which they lived in Mecca,
to explain the doctrine that Allah intend to convey cannot be full credible. What proofs do you have to ensure your point is factual? A Muslims cannot try to outsmart Allah with his/her own interpretation.


7. I agree the story and history behind the verses and chapters as told by MANY [as subjective views] could be use a guide, but what is critical is the universal Islamic principles intended to be convey by Allah as stipulated in the Quran-MGA-610.


8. The principles as reflected in 9:1-4 is Allah has declared all treaties with infidels are from thence [till now] are null and void because there is a 'reason' to do so except for those stated conditions in 9:4.


9. Once all the treaties has run their terms, there shall be no more treaties with the infidels. So the question of Muslims breaking off their treaties do not arise.


10. In practice as in many cases Muslims compromise the above but the principle in 9:1 imply there shall be no more treaties with infidels from there on.
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Old 11-22-2015, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
The last chapter was the 114 by the way.
Note I mentioned chronological order, i.e. arrange based on the time [years] the chapters were written during the life of Muhammad.
Chapter 9 is the last chapter [or penultimate] as recognized by most scholars.


As for argument based on history [normally never accurate], note my point to Woodrow LI above.
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Old 11-23-2015, 04:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I mentioned chronological order, i.e. arrange based on the time [years] the chapters were written during the life of Muhammad.
Chapter 9 is the last chapter [or penultimate] as recognized by most scholars.
Sorry i mean the 110 not the 114.
According to the majority of scholars it's the 110 "El nasr" (the Victory)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_the_Quran

Quran Verses in Chronological Order: Qran.org
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Old 11-23-2015, 04:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

4. Muhammad(saws) is dead. He is not going to return. Jesus(a.s.) is still alive,and has not completed his life on Earth. He will return to Earth to complete his life which is to,with the Mehdi, conquer the anti-Christ and his followers, lead all the remaing people to Islam and a Caliphate will be an era of peace from then until the final Judgement.
Jesus is just as dead as Muhammad. Whether Jesus will return to Earth remains to be seen.
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Old 11-23-2015, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
Jesus is just as dead as Muhammad. Whether Jesus will return to Earth remains to be seen.
Yes, it is a matter of faith that Jesus was lifted up to heaven and spared death, for awhile. But all Humans must face death and Jesus(a.s.) is no exception, for that reason he has to return to earth and complete his life.

I agree we will will not have any verifiable proof until he does that.
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Yes, it is a matter of faith that Jesus was lifted up to heaven and spared death, for awhile. But all Humans must face death and Jesus(a.s.) is no exception, for that reason he has to return to earth and complete his life.

I agree we will will not have any verifiable proof until he does that.
As far we know Jesus is dead just like every other human being (that dies at some point). Anything else can't be proven at this time.
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