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Old 11-16-2015, 08:25 AM
 
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I am wondering if the following is truly written in the Koran:

1) The Koran says that is okay for a believer to lie to a non-believer if it helps Islam.
2) The Koran says it is okay not honor a contract that a believer makes with a non-believer.
3) The Koran says the believers should make 3 attempts to convert non-believers to Islam. If after the 3rd attempt the non-believers have not be willing to convert to Islam, it is okay for the believers to kill the non-believers.
4) A Caliphate (where only believers in Islam are acceptable) is necessary for the return of the Prophet Mohamed and to have a 1000 years of peace. It is the duty of all Muslims to make this happen.
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Old 11-16-2015, 08:47 AM
 
4,431 posts, read 1,654,261 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
I am wondering if the following is truly written in the Koran:

1) The Koran says that is okay for a believer to lie to a non-believer if it helps Islam.
2) The Koran says it is okay not honor a contract that a believer makes with a non-believer.
3) The Koran says the believers should make 3 attempts to convert non-believers to Islam. If after the 3rd attempt the non-believers have not be willing to convert to Islam, it is okay for the believers to kill the non-believers.
4) A Caliphate (where only believers in Islam are acceptable) is necessary for the return of the Prophet Mohamed and to have a 1000 years of peace. It is the duty of all Muslims to make this happen.
You will have a few posters come here acknowledging your comments, and some will deny it. But it really isnt the right way to get to the bottom of this and find your answer.

You must do your own research, use your own intelligence and reach a well informed decision.

And this is how you do it

Whoever provided you with the above 4 points, ask them to provide with the verse # reference.

Once you know the reference, pick an authentic translation of quran done by an Islamic scholar.

Read 5 versus before and after the each referenced verse.

Read the commentary (detail about the translation) and the particular situation in which these versus were revealed. And you will reach to a point to make your own judgement.

It's always helpful to read Quran (at your own speed) from cover to cover to know its theme, and it's message.
It becomes a lot easier to understand the meaning of versus.

If you have a question, ask an Islamic scholar who knows the subject.

Just like if you have a question related to physics, you will consult a professor of physics, and not biology.
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Old 11-16-2015, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
You will have a few posters come here acknowledging your comments, and some will deny it. But it really isnt the right way to get to the bottom of this and find your answer.

You must do your own research, use your own intelligence and reach a well informed decision.

And this is how you do it

Whoever provided you with the above 4 points, ask them to provide with the verse # reference.

Once you know the reference, pick an authentic translation of quran done by an Islamic scholar.

Read 5 versus before and after the each referenced verse.

Read the commentary (detail about the translation) and the particular situation in which these versus were revealed. And you will reach to a point to make your own judgement.

It's always helpful to read Quran (at your own speed) from cover to cover to know its theme, and it's message.
It becomes a lot easier to understand the meaning of versus.

If you have a question, ask an Islamic scholar who knows the subject.

Just like if you have a question related to physics, you will consult a professor of physics, and not biology.
An excellent repy, I can not add anything t it
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Old 11-16-2015, 08:31 PM
 
Location: US
27,998 posts, read 15,087,733 times
Reputation: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
I am wondering if the following is truly written in the Koran:

1) The Koran says that is okay for a believer to lie to a non-believer if it helps Islam.
2) The Koran says it is okay not honor a contract that a believer makes with a non-believer.
3) The Koran says the believers should make 3 attempts to convert non-believers to Islam. If after the 3rd attempt the non-believers have not be willing to convert to Islam, it is okay for the believers to kill the non-believers.
4) A Caliphate (where only believers in Islam are acceptable) is necessary for the return of the Prophet Mohamed and to have a 1000 years of peace. It is the duty of all Muslims to make this happen.
Sounds like Christianity...
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Old 11-16-2015, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
I am wondering if the following is truly written in the Koran:

1) The Koran says that is okay for a believer to lie to a non-believer if it helps Islam.
2) The Koran says it is okay not honor a contract that a believer makes with a non-believer.
3) The Koran says the believers should make 3 attempts to convert non-believers to Islam. If after the 3rd attempt the non-believers have not be willing to convert to Islam, it is okay for the believers to kill the non-believers.
4) A Caliphate (where only believers in Islam are acceptable) is necessary for the return of the Prophet Mohamed and to have a 1000 years of peace. It is the duty of all Muslims to make this happen.
I am very familiar with the Quran.
The Quran does not say any of the above as a direct affirmative.

Re point (2), note 9:1 the final chapter [chronological order] of the Quran; [mine]
9:1. Freedom from obligation [immunity] (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those [infidels] of the idolaters [infidels] with whom ye [Muslims] made a treaty:

This is the final declaration for Muslims to break off all treaty they have with non-Muslims and there should be no more treaty with non-Muslim therefrom.
The Quran declares Muslims should not befriend [awliyaa: as allies, partners, guardian] with non-Muslims thus that would imply no more treaties, agreements nor contracts.
If there is no more treaties, there is nothing to dishonor therefrom 9:1 as the final chapter.

Note this my related post on the above issue.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/41962400-post5.html
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:55 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,841 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
I am wondering if the following is truly written in the Koran:

1) The Koran says that is okay for a believer to lie to a non-believer if it helps Islam.
2) The Koran says it is okay not honor a contract that a believer makes with a non-believer.
3) The Koran says the believers should make 3 attempts to convert non-believers to Islam. If after the 3rd attempt the non-believers have not be willing to convert to Islam, it is okay for the believers to kill the non-believers.
4) A Caliphate (where only believers in Islam are acceptable) is necessary for the return of the Prophet Mohamed and to have a 1000 years of peace. It is the duty of all Muslims to make this happen.
1 No
2 No.
3 No
4 No

1 It's ok to lie if you fear for your safety (in Quran), if you are engaged in a war (not against civilians, and as a tactic of war) (in Quran), if you don't want to hurt people feelings (in some hadiths).

2 You can stop honoring a contract/pact if the other side is not honnest/attacked you.
That's what happened in the Sourate 9.

3 No, the Quran doesn't say that at all.

4 No. We had Caliphates before were non muslims used to live.
You never noticed that in Syria or Egypt they were other religions like christianity, zoroastrism, judaism and others ?
Muslims in general don't try to convert people, exept few of us who make da'wa which consist in calling to Islam only. I never saw that in muslim countries (even if it can exist) just in the west.

The Caliphate is not necessary for "the return of the prophet Muhammad" because Mohammad died.
If you meant by that Jesus and the Imam Mahdi, we don't believe it's necessary because we know the Caliphate will exist when Jesus will return.
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Old 11-18-2015, 09:09 PM
 
10,567 posts, read 15,646,282 times
Reputation: 11900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
I am wondering if the following is truly written in the Koran:

1) The Koran says that is okay for a believer to lie to a non-believer if it helps Islam.
2) The Koran says it is okay not honor a contract that a believer makes with a non-believer.

Those two are definitely in Tora. Specifically for #2 read on Kol Nidre. Add to this it is Ok to apply usury to a Goim but none should be for a Hebrew. Add to this "many nations will bow to you but you will bow to none". And so on. Including killing Goim.
Jewish Talmudic Quotes - Facts Are Facts
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Old 11-21-2015, 04:51 AM
 
32,119 posts, read 33,037,268 times
Reputation: 14967
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
You will have a few posters come here acknowledging your comments, and some will deny it. But it really isnt the right way to get to the bottom of this and find your answer.

You must do your own research, use your own intelligence and reach a well informed decision.

And this is how you do it

Whoever provided you with the above 4 points, ask them to provide with the verse # reference.

Once you know the reference, pick an authentic translation of quran done by an Islamic scholar.

Read 5 versus before and after the each referenced verse.

Read the commentary (detail about the translation) and the particular situation in which these versus were revealed. And you will reach to a point to make your own judgement.

It's always helpful to read Quran (at your own speed) from cover to cover to know its theme, and it's message.
It becomes a lot easier to understand the meaning of versus.

If you have a question, ask an Islamic scholar who knows the subject.

Just like if you have a question related to physics, you will consult a professor of physics, and not biology.
If I have a question in Physics, I will ask my father who is a professor of physics. But if I have a question about biology, personally I don't know any professors of biology that I can ask and the same goes for the Koran & Islamic scholars.

But I do appreciate everyone who has tried to give me a relevant answer to my query.
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Old 11-21-2015, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
I am wondering if the following is truly written in the Koran:

1) The Koran says that is okay for a believer to lie to a non-believer if it helps Islam.
2) The Koran says it is okay not honor a contract that a believer makes with a non-believer.
3) The Koran says the believers should make 3 attempts to convert non-believers to Islam. If after the 3rd attempt the non-believers have not be willing to convert to Islam, it is okay for the believers to kill the non-believers.
4) A Caliphate (where only believers in Islam are acceptable) is necessary for the return of the Prophet Mohamed and to have a 1000 years of peace. It is the duty of all Muslims to make this happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
If I have a question in Physics, I will ask my father who is a professor of physics. But if I have a question about biology, personally I don't know any professors of biology that I can ask and the same goes for the Koran & Islamic scholars.

But I do appreciate everyone who has tried to give me a relevant answer to my query.
While I do not consider myself an Islamic scholar, I do know a few scholars and have discussed these very same questions after seeing they are common misconceptions spread on the anti-Islamic sites.

They seem to be commonly believed to be true by non-Muslims, but I do not know of any Muslims that believe them to be true.

They are the result of people taking just part of a statement and passing it off as being the whole.

Trying to answer your 4 questions.

1. Lying to anyone is a sin. However there are 5 conditions in which a sin is considered a pardonable offense. a.When it is under duress and the person succumbs to force. b. When it is the only way to save a lfe after all other options fail

2. that is out right false. nothing in the Qur'an even suggests it is permissible to violate a contract with anyone. The only times a contract can be nullified is if the person you have a contract with violates the terms of the contract. which is what happened in Surah 9. Many non-Muslims are under the impression that the Qur'an is a stand alone book of commands.


9:1 Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty: - 9:1 (Picktall)

is very often quoted as proof that we are not obligated to keep treaties with non-Muslims. However, that is because they are unaware of the conditions under which Surah 9 was revealed. .The Mushriks (idolators) where living in Mecca under a treaty. A condition of the treaty was they would not interfer with the Muslims coming to Mecca for Haj they instead blocked them from coming for hajj. An announcement was then sent to all Muslims notifying them that the Mushikun had violated the treaty and it is now nullified. Ayyats 1-10 specify that the Muhrikun are to be given one year (the 4 holy months) to leave Mecca and if after that time if they are found in Mecca it will be considered an act of war and they will be treated as invaders..As a result of this warning the Mushrikan left Mecca and there was no blood shed.

3. Is totally false, I have no idea how the hate sites came up with that one.

4. Muhammad(saws) is dead. He is not going to return. Jesus(a.s.) is still alive,and has not completed his life on Earth. He will return to Earth to complete his life which is to,with the Mehdi, conquer the anti-Christ and his followers, lead all the remaing people to Islam and a Caliphate will be an era of peace from then until the final Judgement.
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When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
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Old 11-22-2015, 05:10 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,841 times
Reputation: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
2. that is out right false. nothing in the Qur'an even suggests it is permissible to violate a contract with anyone. The only times a contract can be nullified is if the person you have a contract with violates the terms of the contract. which is what happened in Surah 9. Many non-Muslims are under the impression that the Qur'an is a stand alone book of commands.

9:1 Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty: - 9:1 (Picktall)

is very often quoted as proof that we are not obligated to keep treaties with non-Muslims. However, that is because they are unaware of the conditions under which Surah 9 was revealed. .The Mushriks (idolators) where living in Mecca under a treaty. A condition of the treaty was they would not interfer with the Muslims coming to Mecca for Haj they instead blocked them from coming for hajj. An announcement was then sent to all Muslims notifying them that the Mushikun had violated the treaty and it is now nullified. Ayyats 1-10 specify that the Muhrikun are to be given one year (the 4 holy months) to leave Mecca and if after that time if they are found in Mecca it will be considered an act of war and they will be treated as invaders..As a result of this warning the Mushrikan left Mecca and there was no blood shed.
Exactly.

Those who quote the verses of the Surat 9 saying muslims can lie or break treaties as they wish just because the others people are disbelievers are :

- Dishonest people who don't give an explanation for the end of the treaties.
- People who have never read the Surat except some verses they found in some websites.


9.4 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).

9.6
And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

9.7
(...) So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty.

As for the others idolaters who violated first the treaty :


9.8
How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers.

9.10
And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour.These are they who are transgressors.

9.12 And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.

9.13
Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers.


In many other parts of the Quran concerning other conflicts the same thing :

4.89
Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.

60.8
Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.

60.9
Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong-doers.



8.58
And if thou fearest treachery from any folk, then throw back to them (their treaty) fairly. Lo! Allah loveth not the treacherous.
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