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Old 11-20-2015, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
This will make it a "humane" opinion on God's word.
I am asking for "God's" explanation of how did a clear suicide - as that what a suicide bomber does - is justified to his or her conscience based on Q'Ran that clearly forbids suicide.
I am also absolutely not interested in trying to turn my question into martyrdom discussion. A martyr is one who dies for his or her spiritual beliefs persecution. Usually killed in some torturous way. Person goinf out and killing others while committing a suicide is not a martyr.
Let's please leave martyrdom out of this conversation.

I "get it" - some mullah or sufi or someone else will tell a person that it is noble and straight road to heaven to become a suicide bomber. But that is not god speaking. They are also likely to justify their words with some sort of holy scriptures. And that is what I am seeking - please, show me those scriptures.
And if none here can - that is also fine. I always tell my patients that "do not know" is as good an answer as "I do" itself. Better than lie, you know.

Ah, I see. Twisted logic.

For those who believed, but eventually disbelieved in God in the end, the result seems unambiguously negative. In the Quran, although God is said to be 'the Most Merciful, the Most Kind' and forgives all sins, the great sin of unbelief is deemed unforgivable. Despite this, there is an unpopular view that actions committed in the course of jihad resulting in one's own death are not considered suicide, even if by the nature of the act death is assured (e.g. suicide bombing). Such acts are instead considered a form of martyrdom. However, there is Quranic evidence to the contrary stating those involved in the killing of the innocent are wrongdoers and transgressors. Nevertheless, some claim Islam does permit the use of suicide only against the unjust and oppressors if one feels there is absolutely no other option available and life otherwise would end in death.

http://www.mpac.org/programs/anti-terrorism-campaign/islamic-views-regarding-terrorism-and-suicidem/religious-views-on-suicide.php

This should be source respectable enough, right? I get it. Sure, Glad other religions never had a suicide bomber to come up with such twisted cover up.

No more questions.
Read the fine print

Nevertheless, some claim Islam does permit the use of suicide only against the unjust and oppressors if one feels there is absolutely no other option available and life otherwise would end in death.

It is true, some do claim that. But it is not true. It is in violation of what the Qur'an says

there is Quranic evidence to the contrary stating those involved in the killing of the innocent are wrongdoers and transgressors.
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Don't expect any Muslim to give you an objective view.

As this is the Islamic forum, isn't this the place you should come to learn the views of Muslims. If one wants an objective view it makes more sense to use an Academic Site.

Martyrdom has many forms in Islam. The vast majority will never involve physical war. If a person is seeking martyrdom by dieing in a physical war they will probably find hellfire instead as their intention is most likely wrong.

Instead of my views here are some opinions by Islamic scholars regarding Martyrdom.

https://www.abc.se/home/m9783/ir/ez/isl/0-sbm/main.html

Fatwa issued against suicide bombing - Telegraph

Salafi Publications | Shaikh Ibn Uthaimeen: The Suicide Bomber is Not A Martyr And Is In Hellfire
I do not expect Muslims to give objective views where it matters [by default it is based on faith, thus cannot be objective] but there still something to learn about from their objective views.
Btw, I have gathered a lot of information from you and other Muslims here despite your very subjective, emotional and psychological based views.
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I do not expect Muslims to give objective views where it matters [by default it is based on faith, thus cannot be objective] but there still something to learn about from their objective views.
Btw, I have gathered a lot of information from you and other Muslims here despite your very subjective, emotional and psychological based views.
Thank you,

I actually enjoy your questions. they have been honest questions that deserve answers. Your views are appreciated, even when I disagree with them. A person learns more from thost that disagree than from those that agree with everything.

glad you have decided to post here.
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
This will make it a "humane" opinion on God's word.
I am asking for "God's" explanation of how did a clear suicide - as that what a suicide bomber does - is justified to his or her conscience based on Q'Ran that clearly forbids suicide.


I am also absolutely not interested in trying to turn my question into martyrdom discussion. A martyr is one who dies for his or her spiritual beliefs persecution. Usually killed in some torturous way. Person goinf out and killing others while committing a suicide is not a martyr.
Let's please leave martyrdom out of this conversation.
A rose by any name ...


The Quran may call it martyrdom [where Muslims voluntarily and deliberate kill themselves for the cause of Allah] but its ultimate concept is still 'suicide' as we conventionally understand it.


From what I read, the Quran did not mention suicide and killing oneself for no reason. Some argued 4:29 discouraged voluntary suicide but this is contentious amongst interpreters.


The martyrdom you do not want to discuss is the type is where heroes are killed in a good cause but they did it with no deliberate intention to be killed, e.g. in a normal warfare situation.


The martyrdom that is exhorted in the Quran is conceptually no different from committing suicide deliberately.
So when we discuss martyrdom in the Quran contextually we are discussing suicide, both terms represent the same concept of deliberating killing one self.

In another sense we can conclude Allah do condone suicide in the various verses in the Quran [highlighted above] but it is deceptively framed as "martyrdom".


Thus when you avoid associating 'martyrdom' in the Quran with 'suicide', you have been effectively deceived.


Note almost all the non-Muslims and medias are correct when they accused the jihadist of committing suicide bombing. What most do not apprehend is such suicides are sanctioned by Allah deceptively framed as martyrdom.
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Old 11-20-2015, 11:16 PM
 
2,106 posts, read 2,163,903 times
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Suicide bombers are misguided savages lower then dog feces on the bottom of one's boot..and whose God is not the God of the Quran. I believe these demons and ALL who support them, and privately cheer them on (upon which there are many..for their name is "Legion"),... are not following God, but are surely following the Devil. They have been infected, and possessed by the spirit of violence, hate and viciousness, by the Wicked One....Lucifer. I hope the true peace loving Muslims, equipped with fearlessness, wisdom and bravery, will turn this devil into dust, and speak loudly against those who have hijacked their religion some day. Just my opinion and view.

Last edited by folkguitarist555; 11-20-2015 at 11:31 PM..
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Old 11-20-2015, 11:52 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by folkguitarist555 View Post
Suicide bombers are misguided savages lower then dog feces on the bottom of one's boot..and whose God is not the God of the Quran. I believe these demons and ALL who support them, and privately cheer them on (upon which there are many..for their name is "Legion"),... are not following God, but are surely following the Devil. They have been infected, and possessed by the spirit of violence, hate and viciousness, by the Wicked One....Lucifer. I hope the true peace loving Muslims, equipped with fearlessness, wisdom and bravery, will turn this devil into dust, and speak loudly against those who have hijacked their religion some day. Just my opinion and view.
I don't understand. The god of the quran wants nothing more than to horribly torture disbelievers for eternity.

This allah is vicious, evil....listen to what he wants to do to people:

"They will long to leave the Fire, but never will they leave there from; and theirs will be a lasting torment." (Quran 5:37)

"…And they will never leave of the Fire." (Quran 2:167)

"Surely, those who disbelieve and did wrong; God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way except the way of Hell, to dwell therein forever." (Quran 4:168-169)

"Surely, God has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire wherein they will abide for ever." (Quran 33:64)

"And whosoever disobeys God and His Messenger, then surely, for him is the fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever." (Quran 72:23)

Reminds me of ISIS burning people alive. 'Allah' must be so proud of ISIS!

So let's take a look at what Allah does:


*GRAPHIC” New VIDEO: Islamic State BURNS 4 CAPTIVES ALIVE #ISIS | Pamela Geller (Warning: this is horrible and I could not watch it!)

Except that Allah does this to people FOREVER!!!!!! You don't die!

And it doesn't stop there! Just burning people alive isn't enough.

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

This is how a monster thinks. It sickens me. ALL true Muslims think that non-believers deserve this. I do not think that Charles Manson deserves this! Is this really what Islam has created? Well over a BILLION people who are OK with this being done to the rest of mankind?
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Old 11-21-2015, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I don't understand. The god of the quran wants nothing more than to horribly torture disbelievers for eternity.

This allah is vicious, evil....listen to what he wants to do to people:

"They will long to leave the Fire, but never will they leave there from; and theirs will be a lasting torment." (Quran 5:37)

"…And they will never leave of the Fire." (Quran 2:167)

"Surely, those who disbelieve and did wrong; God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way except the way of Hell, to dwell therein forever." (Quran 4:168-169)

"Surely, God has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire wherein they will abide for ever." (Quran 33:64)

"And whosoever disobeys God and His Messenger, then surely, for him is the fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever." (Quran 72:23)

Reminds me of ISIS burning people alive. 'Allah' must be so proud of ISIS!

So let's take a look at what Allah does:


*GRAPHIC” New VIDEO: Islamic State BURNS 4 CAPTIVES ALIVE #ISIS | Pamela Geller (Warning: this is horrible and I could not watch it!)

Except that Allah does this to people FOREVER!!!!!! You don't die!

And it doesn't stop there! Just burning people alive isn't enough.

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

This is how a monster thinks. It sickens me. ALL true Muslims think that non-believers deserve this. I do not think that Charles Manson deserves this! Is this really what Islam has created? Well over a BILLION people who are OK with this being done to the rest of mankind?
1. It is not up to us to decide what is a fair and just punishment for those that oppose Allaah(swt). That is strictly between the individual and Allaah(swt)

We do not know who will be sent to hell or which level of hell they will be sent to. We do know that nearly every person who has ever lived or will ever live will one day be punished for the transgression either in life, the grave, hellfire or any combination

We do know there are many levels of hell and a person's punishment will not exceed what is just and fair.

We do know that know one will experience any punishment that they have not been given the opportunity to avoid and recuse to avoid them through their own free will choices, with full knowledge of what the consequences will be.

In my opinion too many of us dwell too much on what might happen to somebody when we should be concerned only with how we can gain heaven.

Every person is in full control with how they will spend eternity. No need to worry about them, they choose their destination, they are not forced into it.
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Old 11-21-2015, 01:07 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

1. It is not up to us to decide what is a fair and just punishment for those that oppose Allaah(swt). That is strictly between the individual and Allaah(swt)

We do not know who will be sent to hell or which level of hell they will be sent to. We do know that nearly every person who has ever lived or will ever live will one day be punished for the transgression either in life, the grave, hellfire or any combination

We do know there are many levels of hell and a person's punishment will not exceed what is just and fair.

We do know that know one will experience any punishment that they have not been given the opportunity to avoid and recuse to avoid them through their own free will choices, with full knowledge of what the consequences will be.

In my opinion too many of us dwell too much on what might happen to somebody when we should be concerned only with how we can gain heaven.

Every person is in full control with how they will spend eternity. No need to worry about them, they choose their destination, they are not forced into it.
1. YOU BET IT IS! When I am watching a massive slaughter in Paris based on the hate and torture allah gleefully banters about in the Quran and the terrorist preachings of Muhammed, you'd better believe I'm deciding that Islam is pure evil.

That you think that it is OK for allah to threaten such horrors and demand that unless the person submits to him they will be horribly tortured endlessly by him....that is beyond the pale. I cannot imagine a mind that could accept such a thing. And I have tried. I just cannot sanction such horrible evil.

Free choice? Submit to allah or be burned alive for all eternity. Some choice. And this is just what allah demands that Muslims do: kill disbelievers unless they submit to Islam.

Quran 9:5
And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


Today the places of ambush are concert halls and sports arenas and restaurants and buses and trains and airplanes and streets and entire countries. Every day lately a new horror from Islam. And according to your moral code, these people deserve to be slaughtered. They wouldn't submit to allah.
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Old 11-21-2015, 01:26 PM
 
3,299 posts, read 1,876,866 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Dear Muslims

I have a question.
I found that Q'Ran does not permit suicide. It is said that one that commits suicide will be dying from the same act for eternity in Hell.
Understood.
How is this actually working with suicide bombers? Whichever way it is presented, becoming a martyr or else, a person willingly takes its own life, which is basic suicide. Person is not acting in self defense.
Trying to understand, how are those folks justifying what they do? Surely, the gravity of that decision must be warranted by some higher purpose, conviction, which is likely belief that shortcut to heaven is taken. Same time - Q'Ran says otherwise.

Thank you
I'm pretty sure all a Muslim suicide bomber needs in order to believe his actions are permissible according to the Quran, is an imam telling him exactly that.
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Old 11-21-2015, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch33 View Post
I'm pretty sure all a Muslim suicide bomber needs in order to believe his actions are permissible according to the Quran, is an imam telling him exactly that.
As an Imam is not wupposed to teach or preach few Muslims are going to be guided one way or the other by an Imam. (In the USA there are no more than 700 Imams and as there are no educational criteria for an Imam their level of knowledge varies. True world wide there are Imams who do preach and teach violence, but any Muslim familiar with most aspects of Islam is aware we are not to listen to an Imam and never blindly follow any living person as a religious leader. we each are accountable for our own beliefs and are responsible to personally verify everything we believe.

there is no religious authority that appoints Imams. Some, probably many are self appointed. They simply build a Mosque or convert an existing building as a Mosque.

For most American Muslims we will never see the interior of a Mosque. Most of us simply say our obligatory prayers alone or with family and friends where ever we happen to be.
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