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Old 11-21-2015, 05:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch33 View Post
I'm pretty sure all a Muslim suicide bomber needs in order to believe his actions are permissible according to the Quran, is an imam telling him exactly that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As an Imam is not wupposed to teach or preach few Muslims are going to be guided one way or the other by an Imam. (In the USA there are no more than 700 Imams and as there are no educational criteria for an Imam their level of knowledge varies. True world wide there are Imams who do preach and teach violence, but any Muslim familiar with most aspects of Islam is aware we are not to listen to an Imam and never blindly follow any living person as a religious leader. we each are accountable for our own beliefs and are responsible to personally verify everything we believe.

there is no religious authority that appoints Imams. Some, probably many are self appointed. They simply build a Mosque or convert an existing building as a Mosque.

For most American Muslims we will never see the interior of a Mosque. Most of us simply say our obligatory prayers alone or with family and friends where ever we happen to be.
You posted a lot of good info; but nothing that contradicts my observation.

Unless of course I'm wrong, and ISIS has no imams telling their suicide bombers they're doing the right thing. Do you think that's the case?
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Old 11-21-2015, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,360,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch33 View Post
You posted a lot of good info; but nothing that contradicts my observation.

Unless of course I'm wrong, and ISIS has no imams telling their suicide bombers they're doing the right thing. Do you think that's the case?

I am quite certain ISIS has many old goats in the background suckering young naive kids into being suicide bombers.

Sadly it is very seldom you find any of the despots being suicide bombers, they choose to manipulate the young and the ignorant.

Except for some Shi'ite we have no ordained clergy. Any Muslim who claims to be clergy should be viewed with suspicion. Especially if they claim to be an Imam and preach or teach.
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Old 11-21-2015, 06:13 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 759,757 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch33 View Post
You posted a lot of good info; but nothing that contradicts my observation.

Unless of course I'm wrong, and ISIS has no imams telling their suicide bombers they're doing the right thing. Do you think that's the case?
"PARIS: Days after a gruesome attack at a gas factory, France said it had deported 40 foreign imams for “preaching hatred” over the past three years, a quarter of them in the last six months.

Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve on Monday vowed to clamp down on mosques and preachers inciting hatred. Any “foreign preacher of hate will be deported,” said Cazeneuve, adding that several mosques were being investigated for inciting terrorism and if found to be doing so, “will be shut down”.

France says it deported 40 imams since 2012 for 'preaching hatred' - The Express Tribune
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Old 11-21-2015, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,602,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am quite certain ISIS has many old goats in the background suckering young naive kids into being suicide bombers.

Sadly it is very seldom you find any of the despots being suicide bombers, they choose to manipulate the young and the ignorant.

Except for some Shi'ite we have no ordained clergy. Any Muslim who claims to be clergy should be viewed with suspicion. Especially if they claim to be an Imam and preach or teach.
What is you are trying to say is there should not be any teachers at all, each must be self-educated, i.e. learn on their own. As usual [inoculation theory] you are not aligned with reality in this case.


1. The reality is 90% of humans needed to be guided by some others who know much more than they do.
Even the experts need some kind of teachers to guide them in areas outside their own specialty.


2. Religion is a critical necessity to 90% of humans due to their inherent existential desperations for salvation and eternal life in heaven with sensual delights.


3. The critical problem is the Quran as the core of Islam is filled with evil laden [satanic] elements of various degrees within 55% of its 6,236 verses.


4. Since Islam is a religion [and otherwise], 90% of Muslims will naturally [inevitably] require teachers to guide them [1]. This is unavoidable in the practical world.


5. Re Normal Distribution there will be a percentile of evil prone teachers influencing/inspiring evil prone Muslims to act on the evil laden [satanic] verses to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and also innocent Muslims as well. The proofs of this is glaringly evident.


6. Whatever your views against the clergy as 'teachers,' there is no way you can go against the grain with reality, i.e. the Islamic clergy will inevitably surface. I don't have the verses but I gather [in many verses] in the Quran, the "men of understanding" should be assisting the Muslims newbies. The Quran did not expect all men to go to war but stay back to teach religion to others. Like it or not, there will be the concept of teachers [iman, clergy, experts, scholars] within Islam.


7. From the above, especially [3] one can infer the critical variable [the ultimate cause of all Islamic evils and violence] is the inherent existence of evil laden [satanic] elements in the Quran that flow into all the other secondary texts and way of life of the Muslims. These evil elements are absorbed by some evil prone clergy and Muslims who commit terrible evils and violence around the world.


8. If the Quran do not contain that 55% of evil laden [satanic] verses, there would be no opportunity for any Muslim to commit Islam-inspired violence just like Buddhists and Jains. The fact that the Quran - the core of Islam - do contain 55% of evil laden [satanic] verses, Islam [in part] is inherently evil.


9. The catch-22 is the 55% of evil laden [satanic] verses in the Quran cannot be edited, changed or removed because Allah words and Quran are perfect and immutable.


10. Therefore as long as Islam exists, there will always be SOME* evil prone clergies and evil prone Muslims who are inspired [out of unavoidable existential desperation] to commit terrible evils and violence in the name of Islam, Allah and Muhammad.
* Point is even 'Some' is very scary as 20% of Muslims meant 300 million! which is a very scary potential.
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Old 11-21-2015, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,360,597 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What is you are trying to say is there should not be any teachers at all, each must be self-educated, i.e. learn on their own. As usual [inoculation theory] you are not aligned with reality in this case.


1. The reality is 90% of humans needed to be guided by some others who know much more than they do.
Even the experts need some kind of teachers to guide them in areas outside their own specialty.


2. Religion is a critical necessity to 90% of humans due to their inherent existential desperations for salvation and eternal life in heaven with sensual delights.


3. The critical problem is the Quran as the core of Islam is filled with evil laden [satanic] elements of various degrees within 55% of its 6,236 verses.


4. Since Islam is a religion [and otherwise], 90% of Muslims will naturally [inevitably] require teachers to guide them [1]. This is unavoidable in the practical world.


5. Re Normal Distribution there will be a percentile of evil prone teachers influencing/inspiring evil prone Muslims to act on the evil laden [satanic] verses to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and also innocent Muslims as well. The proofs of this is glaringly evident.


6. Whatever your views against the clergy as 'teachers,' there is no way you can go against the grain with reality, i.e. the Islamic clergy will inevitably surface. I don't have the verses but I gather [in many verses] in the Quran, the "men of understanding" should be assisting the Muslims newbies. The Quran did not expect all men to go to war but stay back to teach religion to others. Like it or not, there will be the concept of teachers [iman, clergy, experts, scholars] within Islam.


7. From the above, especially [3] one can infer the critical variable [the ultimate cause of all Islamic evils and violence] is the inherent existence of evil laden [satanic] elements in the Quran that flow into all the other secondary texts and way of life of the Muslims. These evil elements are absorbed by some evil prone clergy and Muslims who commit terrible evils and violence around the world.


8. If the Quran do not contain that 55% of evil laden [satanic] verses, there would be no opportunity for any Muslim to commit Islam-inspired violence just like Buddhists and Jains. The fact that the Quran - the core of Islam - do contain 55% of evil laden [satanic] verses, Islam [in part] is inherently evil.


9. The catch-22 is the 55% of evil laden [satanic] verses in the Quran cannot be edited, changed or removed because Allah words and Quran are perfect and immutable.


10. Therefore as long as Islam exists, there will always be SOME* evil prone clergies and evil prone Muslims who are inspired [out of unavoidable existential desperation] to commit terrible evils and violence in the name of Islam, Allah and Muhammad.
* Point is even 'Some' is very scary as 20% of Muslims meant 300 million! which is a very scary potential.
4/5 of the world is not Muslim. That is roughly 5.6 billion people 20% of that is a very large number of non-Muslim potential terrorists. Which Just may account why the US had 994 Mass Shootings in the past 1004 days resulting in 1,260 deaths and many more inturies.

994 mass shootings in 1,004 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like | US news | The Guardian
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Old 11-21-2015, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,602,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
4/5 of the world is not Muslim. That is roughly 5.6 billion people 20% of that is a very large number of non-Muslim potential terrorists. Which Just may account why the US had 994 Mass Shootings in the past 1004 days resulting in 1,260 deaths and many more injuries.

994 mass shootings in 1,004 days: this is what America's gun crisis looks like | US news | The Guardian
Note I have stated many times;


1. DNA wise [96-98%] all humans are potentially beasts.
2. 20% of all humans are beastly, i.e. evil prone due to lack of impulse controls.


Ever since humans emerged on Earth all evils and violence were caused by the evil prone from this pool of 20% of humans. Note tribalism, racism, slavery, murders, crimes, Nazism, Fascism, Communism, etc. Humanity has been giving attention to these evils and many of these have been curtailed and others are being addressed.
You will note these are not fixed eternal variables and thus are controllable and preventable, e.g. Nazism, Fascism has disappeared, slavery, racism, Communism are not the wane to their lowest levels.


The Gun Laws at present are not fixed nor immutable. There is a possibility the USA will come up with new Gun Laws to ban or control the ownership of guns in the USA in the future.


For the 20% of the 5.6 billion non-Muslims, i.e. 1.12 billion, there are no potential religious inspired catalysts to accelerate the expected normal evils from these people. There is Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism which do not promote violence and for Hinduism & Christianity there are also no direct active evil laden verses that inspire their believers to commit violence.


However the problem from Islam is a different kettle of fish. Islam is an additional catalyst to the existing 20% of evil potential. The Quran with its >55% of evil laden element of various degrees are fixed, immutable and supposedly eternal. There is no way we can control it like Nazism, Fascism, Communism, slavery, racism and the likes.


Had there been no Islam, there will be no Islam-inspired evils and violence.
E.g. there will be no violence such as below;





The 20% of these 1.4 billion people [who otherwise are Muslims] will still commit the usual evils and violence which humanity will nevertheless address.
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