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Old 11-18-2015, 09:22 PM
 
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Dear Muslims

I have a question.
I found that Q'Ran does not permit suicide. It is said that one that commits suicide will be dying from the same act for eternity in Hell.
Understood.
How is this actually working with suicide bombers? Whichever way it is presented, becoming a martyr or else, a person willingly takes its own life, which is basic suicide. Person is not acting in self defense.
Trying to understand, how are those folks justifying what they do? Surely, the gravity of that decision must be warranted by some higher purpose, conviction, which is likely belief that shortcut to heaven is taken. Same time - Q'Ran says otherwise.

Thank you
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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I have not come across any clear cut verses that forbid suicide in the Quran.

As for the often quoted 4:29, this is very ambiguous and contentions as many interpreters do not include 'kill oneself' but merely to 'kill not one another'.
4:29. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Squander not your wealth among yourselves in vanity, except it be a trade by mutual consent, and kill not one another. [Lo! Allah is ever Merciful unto you.

'Kill not one another' made more sense if we take into account the following verse;
4:30. Whoso doeth that [re 4:29] through aggression and injustice, We shall cast him [Muslim sinner] into Fire, and that is ever easy for Allah.
"kill not one another' is most aligned with 4:30 because one do not commit suicide through injustice and most commit suicide on their own not via aggression.

As for martyrdom, in the Quran, the martyrs are treated as first class honors Muslims and accorded with higher and more lucrative rewards than the average Muslims. The following are verses that condone and encourage martyrdom,
2:154. And call not those [Muslims] who are slain in the way of Allah "dead." Nay, they [Muslims -martyred] are living, only ye perceive not.

2:207. And of mankind is he [the Muslim] who would sell himself, seeking the pleasure of Allah; and Allah hath compassion on (His) bondmen.

47:4 ... And those [Muslims] who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their [Muslims'] actions vain ...
5. He [the Lord] will guide them [the slained Muslims] and improve their state,
6. And [ultimately] bring them [the slain Muslims in battle] in unto the Garden which He hath made known to them.

4:69. Whoso obeyeth Allah and [obey] the messenger, they [Muslims] are with those [Muslims] unto whom Allah hath shown favour, of the Prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. The best of company are they!


To expedite the process of dying for Allah, note these verses which made the hereafter more preferential than life on Earth [Quran treat is as an illusion], therefore to die early for Allah is not a lost cause and a Muslim will achieve his final purpose earlier that waiting for natural death.

9:38. O ye [Muslims] who believe! What aileth you [Muslims] that when it is said unto you [Muslims]: Go forth in the way of Allah, ye [Muslims] are bowed down to the ground with heaviness. [Allah Questioned] Take ye [Muslims] pleasure in the life of the world rather than in the Hereafter? The comfort of the life of the world is but little in the Hereafter.

3:157. And what though ye [Muslims] be slain in Allah's way or die therein? Surely pardon from Allah and mercy [on Judgment Day, paradise] are better than all that they [Muslims can] amass. [on Earth]

Note the above are merely a sample of verses [amongst many] related to premature death for the cause of Allah.

The point is Muslims who sacrifice their lives for the cause of Allah do not perceive the intended voluntary premature death as "suicide" but rather a duty for the cause of Allah.

This is why the Quran and Islam [in part] is inherently evil in brainwashing Muslims [adopted by SOME] to sacrifice their lives voluntarily for the cause of Allah.

Note there are many groups who brainwashed their followers to sacrifice their lives for their respective causes but they do not do it in the name of a religion [mainstream] from within any holy texts as transmitted by God.

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Old 11-19-2015, 05:50 AM
 
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I guess they believe they can do it because they have no other choice.

I've heard someone who said in the news that this was first used by the Shias (i guess Hezbollah so in the 80's) then Al Quaida used it as well as some palestinians.

This is used by "jihadists" (al quaida), resistants (like palestinians) or Hezbollah but condemned by the majority of Imams and never used in armies.
So you won't see any army from muslim countries doing suicide attacks.
(Hezbollah is not the official army of lebanon)

The palestinians say that they are too poor so that's the only solution they have.
Hezbollah are shias so maybe they don't believe in the hadiths about suicide or there maybe be another reason that i ignore.
"Jihadists" they always have a good reason when they do someting forbidden by the Quran.
For exemple when they kill children they say it's because they will go in Paradise (like said Mohammed Merah about the children he killed) or that their parents will "corrupt" them (if the parents are muslims but don't agree with them).

We have few verses about suicide in Islam, but more in hadiths.
The majorities of suicide bombers are sunnis, of course they know those hadiths but as for everything else they interpret it an other way, ignore it.

So i requote the verse 4.29 cause Continuum forget the followed verse ...

4.29 O ye who believe! Squander not your wealth among yourselves in vanity, except it be a trade by mutual consent, and kill not one another. Lo! Allah is ever Merciful unto you.

4.30
And whoso doeth that through aggression and injustice, we shall cast him into Fire, and that is ever easy for Allah.


I just want to add that we as muslims don't always understand/know how they interpret things and why they transgress some rules.
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Old 11-19-2015, 07:45 PM
 
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Well, there is this:
But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily God hath been to you Most Merciful! If any do that in rancor and injustice,- soon shall We cast them into the Fire: And easy it is for God. Qur’an 4:29 - 4:30

And this:

Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 445:
Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, "A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so God said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him."

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 73:
Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak: ”And if somebody commits suicide with anything in this world, he will be tortured with that very thing on the Day of Resurrection.

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."

Basic Googling gives plenty on the matter.
I am only trying to find out - from Muslims and with all due respect - how did this turn into spiritual acceptance for suicide bombers. I have no doubt, those who convinced them used some sort of scriptural justification, but what is it? I'd say, woman that blew herself and her brother in Paris was "under attack". I'll stretch it and give her credit.
But walking into a mall or any other place and blowing yourself intentionally, not being threatened? That is as suicide as it goes.
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Old 11-19-2015, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
So i requote the verse 4.29 cause Continuum forget the followed verse ...

4.29 O ye who believe! Squander not your wealth among yourselves in vanity, except it be a trade by mutual consent, and kill not one another. Lo! Allah is ever Merciful unto you.

4.30 And whoso doeth that through aggression and injustice, we shall cast him into Fire, and that is ever easy for Allah.


I just want to add that we as muslims don't always understand/know how they interpret things and why they transgress some rules.
What??
Read my post again where I referred to 4:30.

Why the jihadists commit terrible evils and violence is exactly by the ordinations of Allah within the Quran as revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel from Allah during the period 610-632 AD [Quran-MGA-610].

Here is a documentary which explain why Jihadists do what they do best, cast terrors and commit violence against infidels.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atmRz5iD-8M

Their acts are ultimately all traceable to the Quran [MGA-610]
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Old 11-19-2015, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Basic Googling gives plenty on the matter.
I am only trying to find out - from Muslims and with all due respect - how did this turn into spiritual acceptance for suicide bombers. I have no doubt, those who convinced them used some sort of scriptural justification, but what is it? I'd say, woman that blew herself and her brother in Paris was "under attack". I'll stretch it and give her credit.
But walking into a mall or any other place and blowing yourself intentionally, not being threatened? That is as suicide as it goes.
Don't expect any Muslim to give you an objective view.

The Quran do not condone suicide in general but it has little [if any it is very contentious] to say about suicide in general.

However, not my points re why Martyrdom in my earlier post.
To Muslims, martyrdom [sacrificing one's life for the cause of Allah] is not suicide.
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Old 11-20-2015, 12:11 AM
 
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One just has to use his God given intuitive powers of logic,...that any man who chooses to kill innocent souls, no matter what the method, by suicide or whatever, surely has no place in any heavenly realm. I don't think what is said in any text on earth, could convince me otherwise. As for it being a noble cause, and some kind of sacrifice to God, to viciously blow innocent people up to smithereens,....women and children and etc. One has to be mad to believe such lunacy. Think to yourself, what deity would approve of such mindlessly violent and destuctive acts? A benevolent God or an iniquitous Devil? Just my opinion and view.

Last edited by folkguitarist555; 11-20-2015 at 12:41 AM..
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:19 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Don't expect any Muslim to give you an objective view.

The Quran do not condone suicide in general but it has little [if any it is very contentious] to say about suicide in general.

However, not my points re why Martyrdom in my earlier post.
To Muslims, martyrdom [sacrificing one's life for the cause of Allah] is not suicide.
Don't expect any Muslim to give you an objective view.

As this is the Islamic forum, isn't this the place you should come to learn the views of Muslims. If one wants an objective view it makes more sense to use an Academic Site.

Martyrdom has many forms in Islam. The vast majority will never involve physical war. If a person is seeking martyrdom by dieing in a physical war they will probably find hellfire instead as their intention is most likely wrong.

Instead of my views here are some opinions by Islamic scholars regarding Martyrdom.

https://www.abc.se/home/m9783/ir/ez/isl/0-sbm/main.html

Fatwa issued against suicide bombing - Telegraph

Salafi Publications | Shaikh Ibn Uthaimeen: The Suicide Bomber is Not A Martyr And Is In Hellfire
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Old 11-20-2015, 12:57 PM
 
10,538 posts, read 15,599,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To Muslims, martyrdom [sacrificing one's life for the cause of Allah] is not suicide.
This will make it a "humane" opinion on God's word.
I am asking for "God's" explanation of how did a clear suicide - as that what a suicide bomber does - is justified to his or her conscience based on Q'Ran that clearly forbids suicide.
I am also absolutely not interested in trying to turn my question into martyrdom discussion. A martyr is one who dies for his or her spiritual beliefs persecution. Usually killed in some torturous way. Person goinf out and killing others while committing a suicide is not a martyr.
Let's please leave martyrdom out of this conversation.

I "get it" - some mullah or sufi or someone else will tell a person that it is noble and straight road to heaven to become a suicide bomber. But that is not god speaking. They are also likely to justify their words with some sort of holy scriptures. And that is what I am seeking - please, show me those scriptures.
And if none here can - that is also fine. I always tell my patients that "do not know" is as good an answer as "I do" itself. Better than lie, you know.

Ah, I see. Twisted logic.

For those who believed, but eventually disbelieved in God in the end, the result seems unambiguously negative. In the Quran, although God is said to be 'the Most Merciful, the Most Kind' and forgives all sins, the great sin of unbelief is deemed unforgivable. Despite this, there is an unpopular view that actions committed in the course of jihad resulting in one's own death are not considered suicide, even if by the nature of the act death is assured (e.g. suicide bombing). Such acts are instead considered a form of martyrdom. However, there is Quranic evidence to the contrary stating those involved in the killing of the innocent are wrongdoers and transgressors. Nevertheless, some claim Islam does permit the use of suicide only against the unjust and oppressors if one feels there is absolutely no other option available and life otherwise would end in death.

http://www.mpac.org/programs/anti-terrorism-campaign/islamic-views-regarding-terrorism-and-suicidem/religious-views-on-suicide.php

This should be source respectable enough, right? I get it. Sure, Glad other religions never had a suicide bomber to come up with such twisted cover up.

No more questions.
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Old 11-20-2015, 01:29 PM
 
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Suicide is haram/not acceptable in Islam. Most imam's will not even hold funeral prayer for someone who committed suicide because you are taking a gift (gift of life) god gave you. And Suicide is straight hell.


HOWEVER, god (Allah) is most forgiving & merciful. We don't know what hardship a person who committed suicide went thru (those committing suicide bomb & mentally depress person ending their life). Maybe they had unique situation that Allah will forgive them or maybe they saved million lives by this act. We don't know all aspect of a persons life and it is not for human to decide how god will judge. To answer your question, all Muslim know suicide is a major sin but they are counting on god's forgiveness
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