Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
In any case, all historical accounts [secondary texts] especially > 1,300 years ago cannot be reliable.
Therefore it is understandable that we should rate his credibility low but that do not suggest we should abandon any reference to what he wrote.
It is the same for the Hadiths which are written by men [or women] up to 200 years after the prophet death and such we should discount their credibility first due to the time factor.
Thus we should NOT simply abandon what Ishaq presented but rather use it as a reference on a hermeneutical basis with other texts and in the context of Islam and reality.
Just in case, do you understand the concept of 'hermeneutics?' Hermeneutics | Define Hermeneutics at Dictionary.com
If not, read it up, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics
This is necessary to ensure your views are objective and rational.
Just as you critique Ishaq, in the same context the Quran is not reliable at all because God cannot exists as real, thus there is no Quran from a God.
Therefore the Quran was authored by a men or a group of men.
When we refer to the Quran we should understand it from the hermeneutical perspective and in the context of Islam, human history, humanity and reality and more so the psychology of believers.
The biggest arguement Muslims have about Ishaq is His book "Sirat Rasul Allah" While it is known Ishaq did write such a book, it was destroed. However one of his students tried to restore it from memory, that was also destroyed and Hisham tried to restore the students version from Memory. that is what remains. Hisham did admit he did embellish the book and used his imagination for what he forgot.
The biggest arguement Muslims have about Ishaq is His book "Sirat Rasul Allah" While it is known Ishaq did write such a book, it was destroed. However one of his students tried to restore it from memory, that was also destroyed and Hisham tried to restore the students version from Memory. that is what remains. Hisham did admit he did embellish the book and used his imagination for what he forgot.
However note my point on its limited and qualified usage in my post earlier and the use of hermeneutics to its use.
Repeat: In any case, all historical accounts [secondary texts] especially > 1,300 years ago cannot be reliable.
Therefore it is understandable that we should rate his credibility low but that do not suggest we should abandon any reference to what he wrote.
It is the same for the Hadiths which are written by men [or women] up to 200 years after the prophet death and such we should discount their credibility first due to the time factor.
Another point is Muslims as believers are naturally and spontaneously bias [they have to as Heaven or Hell is as stake] against any thing that is negative to their religion and prophet. This is a proven psychological fact.
The early writers [with lesser emotional attachments] were rather innocent and write based on what they see or hear from secondary sources. Of course the texts that were written earlier are generally more accurate unless they are good reason to prove otherwise. Therefore I would have doubts on credibility of those who critique Ishaq in the later periods.
As I mentioned above, we cannot put too much credibility on Ishaq's Sira and even the Ahadiths. It can only be relied upon after hermeneutical justifications with the Quran, Islam as a whole, history, psychology and reality.
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
You are insulting your own intelligence by denial and not wanting to see the facts of the matter, i.e. Islam is both a religion of moderation and aggression [evil and violence].
It is a fact more than 55% of its 6,236 verses in the Quran contains evil laden elements [of various degrees].
"Evil" in this sense mean any thing that is net 'negative' to the individual and humanity.
I understand a person like you is likely to be a "moderate" like the majority of Muslims, but you cannot ignore and deny the reality of humanity that there are 20% of ALL humans [including Muslims] who are evil prone.
Many from this 20% of evil prone Muslims [300 million potentials] are inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran [by evil prone clergy or own reading] to commit terrible evils and violence against non-Muslims and also Muslims themselves. This reality is already happening and the evidence is very glaring as reported in the News every day throughout the world.
You cannot prove me wrong on this.
It was a mistake from the start when the Quran was infused with so much evil laden elements. A religious texts [or way of life] which is supposed from a God [or any wise man] should be corrupted with so evil laden elements [even there is a good intention to it.
As a comparison, note Buddhism and Jainism which are religions and also a way of life do not contain any leading evil laden verses that inspire Buddhists to commit evil on non-believers.
So don't insult your own intelligence. Wake up and see the whole of reality.
I cannot deny that the evil have taken Islam by storm. It must be acknowledged that Islam has been infiltrated thoroughly. Islam is a Peaceful religion and a moderate roadway between the extremes. The terrorist, extremist, are about changing Islam to their liking. That means interpreting the Holy Qur'an to speak their backward language. They demonstrate their corrupt mentality on a daily basis, by killing Muslims, destroying Masijid and Churches, murdering innocent civilians, et cetera. I've never seen evil in The Holy Qur'an, as it always appeared to me in a protective light, as in self defense. This is why the NWO's, corrupter's acknowledge Islam as the only obstacle to their achieving, total world control.
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.
I cannot deny that the evil have taken Islam by storm. It must be acknowledged that Islam has been infiltrated thoroughly. Islam is a Peaceful religion and a moderate roadway between the extremes. The terrorist, extremist, are about changing Islam to their liking. That means interpreting the Holy Qur'an to speak their backward language. They demonstrate their corrupt mentality on a daily basis, by killing Muslims, destroying Masijid and Churches, murdering innocent civilians, et cetera. I've never seen evil in The Holy Qur'an, as it always appeared to me in a protective light, as in self defense. This is why the NWO's, corrupter's acknowledge Islam as the only obstacle to their achieving, total world control.
Wassalaam. devotee
Can you say that Mohammad was evil for slaughtering people? Can you say Mohammad was evil for having sex with a little child? Can you say Mohammad was evil for preaching terrorism? Can you say the Quran was evil to promote terrorism and hate Can you say that Muhammad with evil for owning and trading slaves and selling women?
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.
I cannot deny that the evil have taken Islam by storm. It must be acknowledged that Islam has been infiltrated thoroughly. Islam is a Peaceful religion and a moderate roadway between the extremes. The terrorist, extremist, are about changing Islam to their liking. That means interpreting the Holy Qur'an to speak their backward language. They demonstrate their corrupt mentality on a daily basis, by killing Muslims, destroying Masijid and Churches, murdering innocent civilians, et cetera.
I've never seen evil in The Holy Qur'an, as it always appeared to me in a protective light, as in self defense.
This is why the NWO's, corrupter's acknowledge Islam as the only obstacle to their achieving, total world control.
Wassalaam. devotee
You are still insulting your own intelligence [re bolded] by refusing to open your eyes to the reality of evil and violence laden elements in the Quran.
Note the Quran contain both good and evil elements which are from the words of Allah.
One critical point of the evil laden element in the Quran is it invoked the primitive and barbaric impulse of 'us versus them, ' i.e. us=good, them=evil/threat throughout the whole of the Quran. With so much evil elements attached to the "us versus them" impulse the infidels are hated with contempt by SOME Muslims. Note SOME = pool of 300 millions.
Whilst you may not be brainwashed to violence, the reality is there is a potential pool of 300 millions evil prone Muslims hating infidels as condoned by Allah.
You said violence is only justified in the case of self-defense. But the 20% of evil prone do not see it like you do. Note Allah sanctioned violence and killing if Islam or Muslims are wronged.
The problem is the term 'wronged' synonymous with mischief, corruption, evil in the Quran is too vague for the evil prone Muslims to interpret any offence by non-Muslims as a threat to the religion. For example drawing of cartoons, promotion of educations, US in Islamic Nations [even for good reason], etc., are interpreted as a threat to Islam and as such they can be killed. This is a reality where evil prone Muslims deemed as approved by Allah to defend the religion.
There is no central authority, so no one can say they are wrong because they can counter by quoting verses from the Quran to support their violence.
I suggest you reread the Quran from chapter 1 to 114 a few times and note the points I raised and how the evil laden verses therein inspired the evil prone Muslims [not you] to commit violence in accordance to the words of Allah and thus their violence is wajib and not sinful.
In accordance to the Quran, these jihadists will be highly praised by Allah and greatly rewarded on Judgment Day. Can you counter this?
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312
Can you say that Mohammad was evil for slaughtering people? Can you say Mohammad was evil for having sex with a little child? Can you say Mohammad was evil for preaching terrorism? Can you say the Quran was evil to promote terrorism and hate Can you say that Muhammad with evil for owning and trading slaves and selling women?
I must answer all of your questions, in the negative, as I have no knowledge of Prophet Muhammad (SAW), having committed any evil act.
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
You are still insulting your own intelligence [re bolded] by refusing to open your eyes to the reality of evil and violence laden elements in the Quran.
Note the Quran contain both good and evil elements which are from the words of Allah.
One critical point of the evil laden element in the Quran is it invoked the primitive and barbaric impulse of . With so much evil elements attached to the "us versus them" impulse the infidels are hated with contempt by SOME Muslims. Note SOME = pool of 300 millions.
Whilst you may not be brainwashed to violence, the reality is there is a potential pool of 300 millions evil prone Muslims hating infidels as condoned by Allah.'us versus them, ' i.e. us=good, them=evil/threat throughout the whole of the Quran
You said violence is only justified in the case of self-defense. But the 20% of evil prone do not see it like you do. Note Allah sanctioned violence and killing if Islam or Muslims are wronged.
The problem is the term 'wronged' synonymous with mischief, corruption, evil in the Quran is too vague for the evil prone Muslims to interpret any offence by non-Muslims as a threat to the religion. For example drawing of cartoons, promotion of educations, US in Islamic Nations [even for good reason], etc., are interpreted as a threat to Islam and as such they can be killed. This is a reality where evil prone Muslims deemed as approved by Allah to defend the religion.
There is no central authority, so no one can say they are wrong because they can counter by quoting verses from the Quran to support their violence.
I suggest you reread the Quran from chapter 1 to 114 a few times and note the points I raised and how the evil laden verses therein inspired the evil prone Muslims [not you] to commit violence in accordance to the words of Allah and thus their violence is wajib and not sinful.
In accordance to the Quran, these jihadists will be highly praised by Allah and greatly rewarded on Judgment Day. Can you counter this?
I can assume that the "evil and violence laden elements in the Quran." are due to, at the very least, 'loss of the true meaning of the (original) translated word('s).' However, other reasons may apply: lack of understanding of the word('s), poor understanding of grammar, poor 'contextual' understanding, et cetera.
The "'us versus them, ' i.e. us=good, them=evil/threat throughout the whole of the Quran" is not an evil laden element. As I explained in my previous post, and that you may have recognized, the NWO, is fast stepping to implement its crooked agenda. It see's Islam as the final and primary roadblock to their dream of total world domination. It is more than likely, the force behind the recent elimination of Muslim scholars in Africa, and probably, other Muslim dominant area's.
Quote:
"the reality is there is a potential pool of 300 millions evil prone Muslims hating infidels"
.
Well, this is a Muslim problem, to be solved by Muslims. When this problem solving is to begin is another problem!
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.
I can assume that the "evil and violence laden elements in the Quran." are due to, at the very least, 'loss of the true meaning of the (original) translated word('s).' However, other reasons may apply: lack of understanding of the word('s), poor understanding of grammar, poor 'contextual' understanding, et cetera.
The "'us versus them, ' i.e. us=good, them=evil/threat throughout the whole of the Quran" is not an evil laden element. As I explained in my previous post, and that you may have recognized, the NWO, is fast stepping to implement its crooked agenda. It see's Islam as the final and primary roadblock to their dream of total world domination. It is more than likely, the force behind the recent elimination of Muslim scholars in Africa, and probably, other Muslim dominant area's.
.
Well, this is a Muslim problem, to be solved by Muslims. When this problem solving is to begin is another problem!
Wassalaam. devotee
You want us to believe that there are thousands of verses in the Quran (and hadiths) that are translated BY MUSLIMS to mean something completely different.
Let's take a look at some of these idiots who could not translate the Quran:
Sir Abdullah Yusuf Ali, CBE, FRSL (/ɑːˈliː/; 14 April 1872 – 10 December 1953) was a British-Indian Islamic scholar who translated the Qur'an into English.[1] His translation of the Qur'an is one of the most widely known and used in the English-speaking world. He was also one of the trustees of the East London Mosque.
Ali was born in Bombay, British India to a wealthy merchant family with a Dawoodi Bohra (sub-sect of Shia Islam) father. As a child, Ali received a religious education and, eventually, could recite the entire Qur'an from memory. He spoke both Arabic and English fluently. He studied English literature and studied at several European universities, including the University of Leeds. He concentrated his efforts on the Qur'an and studied the Qur'anic commentaries beginning with those written in the early days of Islamic history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Yusuf_Ali
Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall (born Marmaduke William Pickthall, 7 April 1875 – 19 May 1936) was a Western Islamic scholar noted for his English translation of the Qur'an (1930). A convert from Christianity, Pickthall was a novelist, esteemed by D. H. Lawrence, H. G. Wells, and E. M. Forster, as well as a journalist, headmaster, and political and religious leader. He declared his conversion to Islam in dramatic fashion after delivering a talk on 'Islam and Progress' on 29 November 1917, to the Muslim Literary Society in Notting Hill, West London. He was also involved with the services of the Woking Muslim Mission in the absence of Khwaja Kamal-ud-Din, its founder.[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmaduke_Pickthall
Mohammad Mahmoud Ghali (born 1920) was the Professor of Linguistics and Islamic Studies, Al-Azhar University, Cairo, Egypt. Dr. Ghali has spent 20 years interpreting the meanings of the Quran into English. He is the author of an English translation of the Quaran, Towards Understanding the Ever-Glorious Quran.[1] Dr. Ghali got his PhD in Phonetics from the University of Michigan. He also studied phonetics at the University of Exeter in the UK. Dr. Ghali has authored 16 books in Islamic studies, in Arabic as well as in English. The English books include Prophet Muhammad and the First Muslim State, Moral Freedom in Islam, Islam and Universal Peace, Synonyms in the Ever-Glorious Quran. Dr. Ghali is the founder of the faculty of languages and translation at Al-Azhar University. In addition to being a full-time professor now at the same faculty, he is also a permanent member of many Islamic organizations working in the field of interpreting the meanings of the Quran into different languages in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and other countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mahmoud_Ghali
And all of the translations are pretty much the same!!
This:
Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”
Does not turn into this:
The Muslims invited the Christian over for dinner. The souffle was delicious but the salmon mousse was a bit off. They all played scrabble after dinner.
Can you say that Allah's horrible and endless torture of disbelievers is evil, or even wrong? Can you say that Mohammad was evil, or even wrong, for slaughtering people? This is really important. Can you judge good from evil?
However note my point on its limited and qualified usage in my post earlier and the use of hermeneutics to its use.
Repeat: In any case, all historical accounts [secondary texts] especially > 1,300 years ago cannot be reliable.
Therefore it is understandable that we should rate his credibility low but that do not suggest we should abandon any reference to what he wrote.
It is the same for the Hadiths which are written by men [or women] up to 200 years after the prophet death and such we should discount their credibility first due to the time factor.
Another point is Muslims as believers are naturally and spontaneously bias [they have to as Heaven or Hell is as stake] against any thing that is negative to their religion and prophet. This is a proven psychological fact.
The early writers [with lesser emotional attachments] were rather innocent and write based on what they see or hear from secondary sources. Of course the texts that were written earlier are generally more accurate unless they are good reason to prove otherwise. Therefore I would have doubts on credibility of those who critique Ishaq in the later periods.
As I mentioned above, we cannot put too much credibility on Ishaq's Sira and even the Ahadiths. It can only be relied upon after hermeneutical justifications with the Quran, Islam as a whole, history, psychology and reality.
The problem with Ishaq as I have noted is that the book "Sirat Rasoul Allah" which is the one most quoted by the hate sites, is not what Ishaq wrote. It is an embellished copy with add ins by Hisham who was trying to reconstruct the original from his memory of a version that was an attempted reconstruction by an author that attempted to reconstruct the original from memory.A good bit that is written in the book appears no place else. There are no sources as to where they came from.Thsi makes what we call Isgaq's "Surat Rasoul Allah" a very poor source because the Author probably had no contact with anyone who actually met Muhammad and the fact that Abu Muhammad 'Abd al-Malik bin Hisham probably never left Egypt and while his key to fame is his edited version of Ishaq's Book, he never read the original nor had access to it.
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.
I can assume that the "evil and violence laden elements in the Quran." are due to, at the very least, 'loss of the true meaning of the (original) translated word('s).' However, other reasons may apply: lack of understanding of the word('s), poor understanding of grammar, poor 'contextual' understanding, et cetera.
The "'us versus them, ' i.e. us=good, them=evil/threat throughout the whole of the Quran" is not an evil laden element.
As I explained in my previous post, and that you may have recognized, the NWO, is fast stepping to implement its crooked agenda. It see's Islam as the final and primary roadblock to their dream of total world domination. It is more than likely, the force behind the recent elimination of Muslim scholars in Africa, and probably, other Muslim dominant area's.
Wassalaam. devotee
What you said is bold is due to ignorance and being uneducated in human nature.
The "us versus them" impulse in the modern era is one of the most toxic evil laden element.
The other name for is the 'in-group versus out-group.
I suggest you do extensive research on this element of "us versus them" which is very fundamental in the Quran & Islam and understand why it is evil laden of the worst kind.
Here is one indication,
Therefore, we divided the world into “them” and “us” based through a process of social categorization (i.e. we put people into social groups).
This is known as in-group (us) and out-group (them). Social identity theory states that the in-group will discriminate against the out-group to enhance their self-image.
The central hypothesis of social identity theory is that group members of an in-group will seek to find negative aspects of an out-group, thus enhancing their self-image.
Prejudiced views between cultures may result in racism; in its extreme forms, racism may result in genocide, such as occurred in Germany with the Jews, in Rwanda between the Hutus and Tutsis and, more recently, in the former Yugoslavia between the Bosnians and Serbs. Social Identity Theory | Simply Psychology
Read as many articles as possible on the subject of "us versus them" [to ensure you are not ignorant and uneducated on this subject] and you will note at the extreme it leads to terrible evils, violence and genocide. This is a reality that had already committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are driven by this "us versus them" impulse from the Quran and the ethos of Islam.
I had suggested you reread the Quran again a few time in chronological order and note how this "us versus them" i.e. us =Muslim-good versus them=infidels-evil is so prevalent throughout the Quran. After taking note you should feel the hatred and contempt that is directed against the non-Muslims who are condemned and dehumanized as pigs, apes, worst of all creatures, cattle, etc. I don't see how you can counter this terrible hatred that is oozing from the Quran.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
