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Old 12-06-2015, 08:39 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Are you saying that there was no attack? That all the media reports are fake? That no one was slaughtered???

Islam derails itself. Non-Muslims just have to learn to speak the truth.
UGH!!!! I HATE to hear that "false flag" claim. It is so tiring. Those who make such claim ALWAYS have an immediate answer after EVERY single national tragedy and it is ALWAYS, "the gub'ment did it." The default answer is ALWAYS immediate. No need to wait for professional investigations, painstaking research or the likes. Just claim some evil agency did it and case closed.

NOT saying no such thing has never happened or does NOT happen, but sheesh, man! Take each on a case by case basis.
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Old 12-06-2015, 08:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
My issue with Islam starts in its very infancy so for me, there is NOTHING beyond its genesis that can even convince me of ANY legitimacy of the religion. The minute I recognized the religion started with a man sitting in a cave in meditation, claiming he heard voices (a voice) speaking to him, it was wrap for me. I do NOT accept such claims from any crazy man on the street, Mormon Joseph Smith who claimed the same thing OR any biblical prophet who proclaimed, "thus saith the Lord" so Muhammad receives ZERO credibility from me on his NON-corroborated claims as he was the ONLY person hearing this voice.

That being said, I will admit that there are some VERY fine Muslim people around. I have NO hatred toward Muslims at all. I HATE to see them being marginalized because of the few a-holes, but I believe, wholeheartedly, that many are the fine people they are DESPITE their religion and NOT in spite of it and it is what THEY bring to it and not so much what it brings to them. Those who operate IN spite of it and allow it to bring to them, to the point where they follow it to the tee, down to emulations, are the dangerous ones, yet the ones who are being the most "true" to what they read WITHOUT any mental gymnastics to get past the most odious contents. It is no different than good Christian people excusing uncomfortable passages in their holy book by coming up with the "well, THAT was under the law" loophole when necessary, but cherry picking other things to suit their fancy when ready.
Keep learning. Read the Quran, or at least some of it. Here's a good place to do that:

The Noble Qur'an -

Then read about Muhammed in the hadiths. Those are Islamic accounts of Muhammed's life. According to Islam, Muhammed did horrible things. He had sex with a little child, he and his gang would attack villages, kill the men and then rape and enslave the women. Muhammed owned and traded slaves and sold women.
And other evil.

If you think about it rationally, it's pretty clear. Muhammed wanted to do some pretty bad stuff. So he invented Allah and Allah gave Muhammed permission to do all this evil stuff while gaining power. I have no idea if Muhammed had terrible psychological issues, but it doesn't matter. He was a really bad man. He cooked up the Quran and started slaughtering disbelievers.

You'll find the Quran has thousands of verses that pit Muslims against non-Muslims. If you research what is happening in Europe, you will see Muslims are doing what the Quran encourages: terrorism, hate, rape, trying to install Shariah Law, human rights abuses.

I also thought that there were good Muslim people, but after speaking to around 3,000 of the over the past several years I am not so sure about that. First, I do not think that people who have no idea what Muhammed did or what is in the Quran are Muslims. Nor do I think people who were forced into Islam are Muslims. To be a Muslim means understanding the fundamentals of Islam and agreeing with them and submitting to Allah.

How can good people believe that all disbelievers deserve endless horrible torture at Allah's hands? How can good people think a monster who raped a 9 year old child, attacked unarmed villages, owned and traded slaves, let his men mass rape women and even joined in, had people slaughtered, etc, ...how can good people think that man is their prophet and example of perfect conduct? If someone is a Nazi or follower of Charles Manson, isn't it reasonable to ask them, “What’s wrong with you for endorsing such a twisted, evil viewpoint?” The same applies to Muslims. But we are giving them a free pass.

How can good people choose to follow evil? They can't.
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Old 12-06-2015, 08:50 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
the only mention of the Cave is in very early Hadith. Yes, many non-Muslims are under the impression Most of the Qur'an was revealed in the cave. However, if one reads the Tadsir of the very early Scholars one can find when and where each of the Surat were revealed. It took 23 years for the Qur'an to be completed and only parts of Surah 2 and 96 were begun in the Cave they were completed later in different locations.

While the Population was not able to hear what Muhammad(saws) was hearing, The people noticed a change come over him and He would begin speaking in the Qur'anic Tajweed, which had never been heard before, instead of his Meccan Dialect of Arabic.

An interesting thing about the Qur'anic Tajweed. No one has ever been able to make a single unique sentence in it, it was never used in conversation and only appears in the Qur'an, yet all Arab speakers of any dialect can understand it. In spite of never had heard it before.

At the time of Muhammad there were at least 7 different Arabic Dialects in use and most people could only understand the dialect specific to their tribe. But they all understood the Qur'anic Arabic which had never been heard until the Qur'an was being revealed.
Thanks for the clarification and elaboration, but I hold my line and see this as something similar to some Christian groups claiming to speak in tongues. I also still wonder why a deity cannot simply convey his message to ALL without the need for middle men who have the need to convince the rest of the population that THEY are speaking on behalf of a deity.
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Old 12-06-2015, 08:54 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
UGH!!!! I HATE to hear that "false flag" claim. It is so tiring. Those who make such claim ALWAYS have an immediate answer after EVERY single national tragedy and it is ALWAYS, "the gub'ment did it." The default answer is ALWAYS immediate. No need to wait for professional investigations, painstaking research or the likes. Just claim some evil agency did it and case closed.

NOT saying no such thing has never happened or does NOT happen, but sheesh, man! Take each on a case by case basis.
Yup, and somehow they think that no one will expose this elaborate hoax that took hundreds, no, wait, THOUSANDS of people 'in on it'. The families, the supposed victims, the neighbors, the police, the medical examiner, the news media, the companies involved, etc, etc....all know about this hoax and keep their mouth shut. Geez, these people would be coming out of the woodwork hoping for a reality show!
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Old 12-06-2015, 09:03 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,908,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Yup, and somehow they think that no one will expose this elaborate hoax that took hundreds, no, wait, THOUSANDS of people 'in on it'. The families, the supposed victims, the neighbors, the police, the medical examiner, the news media, the companies involved, etc, etc....all know about this hoax and keep their mouth shut. Geez, these people would be coming out of the woodwork hoping for a reality show!
That is ONE reason I scoff at such nonsense at times. The required manpower and utter secrecy needed to get a bunch of humans to cooperate on sometimes momentous tasks is alone, enough to quiet these folks, but apparently not.
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Old 12-06-2015, 09:06 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Thanks for the clarification and elaboration, but I hold my line and see this as something similar to some Christian groups claiming to speak in tongues. I also still wonder why a deity cannot simply convey his message to ALL without the need for middle men who have the need to convince the rest of the population that THEY are speaking on behalf of a deity.
Exactly. And remember that this deity supposedly CREATED THE UNIVERSE, which takes unimaginable power.
This is a superbeing that knows all and sees all can can do ANYTHING. And did I mention he CREATED THE WHOLE UNIVERSE!!!

Then he chooses a perverted monster to be his prophet on our tiny planet and dictates a book full of hate and nonsense demanding that us meaningless scraps of nothing submit to him or suffer endless torture at his hands. This superbeing is very interested in things like women's periods and terrorizing people and torturing people for eternity and whether we are clean:

Quran 5:6 O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salat (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful.

Surat Al-Ma'idah [5:6] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

Indeed the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE is interested in how to clean up sperm.

The big mystery is how so many people could fall for such a scam.
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Old 12-06-2015, 09:08 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
That is ONE reason I scoff at such nonsense at times. The required manpower and utter secrecy needed to get a bunch of humans to cooperate on sometimes momentous tasks is alone, enough to quiet these folks, but apparently not.
Reason two: Occam's razor.
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Old 12-06-2015, 09:31 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,908,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Exactly. And remember that this deity supposedly CREATED THE UNIVERSE, which takes unimaginable power.
This is a superbeing that knows all and sees all can can do ANYTHING. And did I mention he CREATED THE WHOLE UNIVERSE!!!

Then he chooses a perverted monster to be his prophet on our tiny planet and dictates a book full of hate and nonsense demanding that us meaningless scraps of nothing submit to him or suffer endless torture at his hands. This superbeing is very interested in things like women's periods and terrorizing people and torturing people for eternity and whether we are clean:

Quran 5:6 O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salat (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful.

Surat Al-Ma'idah [5:6] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

Indeed the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE is interested in how to clean up sperm.

The big mystery is how so many people could fall for such a scam.
To be honest, Muhammad's life story does not surprise me so I am not as hard on him. He was, after all, a product of his own time. If it was not him, it would have been someone else. His religious ideas and ideals were products of his time also. He may have been ahead of his time, perhaps, on some ideas, but for the most part, a product of his time.

To understand him or his religious ideas that he postulated, one would first have to understand the religious and social atmosphere of the Arabian Peninsula of that day and NOT overlook the Jewish influence from as far back as the (Jewish) Hasmonean invasion BEFORE the New Testament era and the Gnostic Christian era and its influences on the Arabian holy men leading up to Muhammad's time.

Now, where I have MY problem is with modern day Muslims trying to emulate THAT time in today's world or trying to KEEP or regress the current world back into the 9th century. Muhammad being a product of his time and social environment I can understand, but today's Muslim pushing to subjugate women, marry off children and those blowing up people in the name of Allah and Jihad, that's another story. Also, those trying to use Muhammad's example as a way to live their own life in ALL respects, are also problematic to me.

Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 12-06-2015 at 09:41 AM..
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Old 12-06-2015, 10:08 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
To be honest, Muhammad's life story does not surprise me so I am not as hard on him. He was, after all, a product of his own time. If it was not him, it would have been someone else. His religious ideas and ideals were products of his time also. He may have been ahead of his time, perhaps, on some ideas, but for the most part, a product of his time.

To understand him or his religious ideas that he postulated, one would first have to understand the religious and social atmosphere of the Arabian Peninsula of that day and NOT overlook the Jewish influence from as far back as the (Jewish) Hasmonean invasion BEFORE the New Testament era and the Gnostic Christian era and its influences on the Arabian holy men leading up to Muhammad's time.

Now, where I have MY problem is with modern day Muslims trying to emulate THAT time in today's world or trying to KEEP or regress the current world back into the 9th century. Muhammad being a product of his time and social environment I can understand, but today's Muslim pushing to subjugate women, marry off children and those blowing up people in the name of Allah and Jihad, that's another story. Also, those trying to use Muhammad's example as a way to live their own life in ALL respects, are also problematic to me.
That is what I hear from many Muslims....it is their second favorite excuse for Muhammed having sex with a 4th grader. Moral relativism....the idea that morality is based on the culture, what everyone else is doing.

There are some problems with accepting Muhammed as just one more evil man (and the most evil of that time since he pretty much did every evil in the book). First, Muslims hold that Muhammed is the perfect example for conduct. Today we have Islamic child brides, terrorism, slavery, rape.....all from the example Muhammed set. Second, it is ironic that Islam is supposed to be so very morally absolute, pointing out immorality around the world...yet they REFUSE to judge Muhammed's very actions. Muslims say that morality is relative to one’s culture when it comes to Muhammed, yet in every other way Islam is utterly inconsistent with moral relativism.

This was something I learned from talking to Muslims. NOT ONE Muslim today will say that Muhammed was bad/evil to do such things. NOT ONE Muslim will say that the Quran has anything wrong in it. They excuse every evil. The will not judge good from evil when it comes to the Quran and Muhammed.

Also, I am not so sure that it was common for men to be having sex with little children back then. Is there any evidence of this?

At any rate, Muhammed set an example that has led to millions of deaths, rape, pedophilia, terrorism hate, slavery...TODAY. And since Muhammed is the prophet and the Quran is the direct word from god, it's all good. Had Muhammed never been born there would be no Islam. We'd still have evil, but not that evil.

Personally, I do not believe in moral relativism. Rape is evil no matter when it is done, what the culture is or who does it. Same with murder and sex with children and terrorism. The root of evil is INITIATION of force against others.
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Old 12-06-2015, 11:08 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,908,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
That is what I hear from many Muslims....it is their second favorite excuse for Muhammed having sex with a 4th grader. Moral relativism....the idea that morality is based on the culture, what everyone else is doing.

There are some problems with accepting Muhammed as just one more evil man (and the most evil of that time since he pretty much did every evil in the book). First, Muslims hold that Muhammed is the perfect example for conduct. Today we have Islamic child brides, terrorism, slavery, rape.....all from the example Muhammed set. Second, it is ironic that Islam is supposed to be so very morally absolute, pointing out immorality around the world...yet they REFUSE to judge Muhammed's very actions. Muslims say that morality is relative to one’s culture when it comes to Muhammed, yet in every other way Islam is utterly inconsistent with moral relativism.

This was something I learned from talking to Muslims. NOT ONE Muslim today will say that Muhammed was bad/evil to do such things. NOT ONE Muslim will say that the Quran has anything wrong in it. They excuse every evil. The will not judge good from evil when it comes to the Quran and Muhammed.

Also, I am not so sure that it was common for men to be having sex with little children back then. Is there any evidence of this?

At any rate, Muhammed set an example that has led to millions of deaths, rape, pedophilia, terrorism hate, slavery...TODAY. And since Muhammed is the prophet and the Quran is the direct word from god, it's all good. Had Muhammed never been born there would be no Islam. We'd still have evil, but not that evil.

Personally, I do not believe in moral relativism. Rape is evil no matter when it is done, what the culture is or who does it. Same with murder and sex with children and terrorism. The root of evil is INITIATION of force against others.
Oh, I am NOT excusing any of his acts if I base them on MY modern understanding of wrong and right. By understanding his times and his actions, I simply see him as nothing more than a PRODUCT of said times and nothing special, by any stretch.

I am from the U.S Virgin Islands in the Caribbean, and recently I was reading a book from the early 1900s giving an account of life on those islands from the perspective of a white traveler to the islands. The language he uses makes me cringe in his description of the people, but then I realize, he was writing with the language of the day and in order to get a picture of life then, I have to overlook his crude language of describing the native peoples. Was he any different than many of the white people of his day? I doubt it. To me today or to the local people of the day, he sounds like a racist ass, but I realize he was speaking the language of his social environment.

I am sure there were people in Muhammad's day who thought marrying children was sick (perhaps the children themselves and a few others), but it was customary, accepted and practically mandated. To me, it was sick, but to them, it was as normal as me sinking my teeth into bacon with no reservations. Seeing it happen in TODAY'S world where I have a say or can have a say is another story.
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