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Old 12-06-2015, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Thanks for the clarification and elaboration, but I hold my line and see this as something similar to some Christian groups claiming to speak in tongues. I also still wonder why a deity cannot simply convey his message to ALL without the need for middle men who have the need to convince the rest of the population that THEY are speaking on behalf of a deity.
It is very similar to speaking in tongues as it was a language never heard before, The difference being that all who heard it understood it and the words are preserved and can still be understood. Even though no one can make an original sentence using it.

It is a dialect of Arabic that was unknown before the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the only book written in it. However any one who can read any form of Arabic can understand it.


As to why Allaah(swt) simply did not reveal the qur'an to everybody, I do not know I can only finreasons why it makes sense he did not.

One being the belief in Allaah(swt) has to come from our own finding, not from any teachings. If the Qur'an had been revealed miraculously to all people, every one would be a believer, there would be no logical way to deny his existence. Our believing would not be free choice even when confronted by many people that do not believe. It is one of the trials of life.
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Old 12-06-2015, 10:13 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.

I feel no hate or contempt towards non-Muslims. However, I suspect that it is the non-Muslim who is condemning the non-Muslim and dehumanizing them as pigs, apes and worse, cattle, etc.. But see the precursor to your perceived event.

Wassalaam. devotee
I take it that you is as a good human being [not necessary the best Muslim] is not influenced by the Quran to 'hate' non-Muslims.
If you have not cultivated 'hate'/contempt for non-Muslims as expected in the Quran you may lose some merit points to qualify you paradise.


There may be some non-Muslims who condemned Muslims but that is because of the obvious terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims. Their condemnation is not based on some holy texts and their God.


Note this is what the Quran and Islam in totality view of non-Muslims negatively in the worse light;
5:60. Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs [infidels] for retribution with Allah? Worse (is the case of him) [infidel] whom Allah hath cursed, him [Kafir] on whom His wrath [on Jews] hath fallen! Worse is he [infidel] of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such [infidels] are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.


98:6. Lo! those [infidels] who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They [infidels] are the worst of created beings.


7:166. So when they [Jews -infidels] took pride in that which they [infidels] had been forbidden, We said unto them [infidel Jews]: Be ye apes despised and loathed!


22:44. (And) the dwellers in Midian. And Moses was denied; but I [Allah] indulged the disbelievers [infidels] a long while, then I seized them [infidels], and how (terrible) was My abhorrence!
The above is merely a sample of hundreds of verses where Allah [aka Muhammad] condemned and dehumanized non-Muslims [them] like a piece of sh:t. Once non-Muslims are dehumanized like sh;t, they are easily dispensed with, oppressed, and killed by SOME Muslims in accordance to the doctrines of the Quran.


I suggest again you reread your Quran with a more objective approach.
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Old 12-06-2015, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
From Female Muslim doctor, Simi Rahman:

This is NOT unique to Islam or religion either, but in religions like Islam and Christianity, you can sure get far more people to sign up with the mentality.

It is nothing but propaganda. I see it even in the early books of the Jewish scriptures where "Us" (the Hebrew Israelites) drew up their propaganda about "Them" (the Canaanites) to then, justify their extermination and robbery of their land. They even went as far to "predict" the justification by claiming that the progenitor of the Canaanites (Canaan), was cursed by Noah to become subjugated (in the future) by the children of the more faithful sons (Shem and Japheth). Lock, stock and barrel CLASSIC propaganda to justify hate, robbery, killings, rape, plunder, etc. Through in some "eternal life" of bliss or "patriotism" in the "struggle" against evil or "weapons of mass destruction" and you can get many to do the most evil.
Yes, it is not unique to Islam.


The "us versus them" is an inherent primal instinct within all humans. Such an instinct was once necessary to facilitate the survival of the species. While the "us versus them" is still useful in some circumstances with certain degrees, its cons has outweigh its pros in our modern era. It is negativity however is still prevalent in many aspect of humanity, e.g. racism, sexism, politics, religion, etc. Humanity must deal with these negativity and reduce them as much as possible.


As for religion, I understand the Abrahamic religions are very notable in invoking the "us versus them" as a default in their holy text.
On topic, Islam is the worst religion in promoting and triggering the "us versus them" instinct and impulse within the psyche of Muslims by its doctrines in the Quran.
The Quran promote a no-holds-barred approach to terrible evils and violence with its loads of evil laden elements. This is not a guess but the proof of this is so obvious and glaring with the almost daily evils and violence committed by some* evil prone Muslims.
*'some' in this case is very critical as a merely 20% generate a pool of 300 million potential evil prone Muslims who would feast on those evil laden verses.
This is why the promoting of the "us verse them" in Islam is so dangerous to humanity.


Christianity obviously bang on the "us versus them" instinct as well. But the fortunate thing is Christianity [NT] has an overriding pacifist rule over Christians, i.e. 'love your enemies'.


The invoking of the "us versus them" within Islam when combined with its loads [> 55%] of evil laden verses is very toxic, malignant and evil.
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Old 12-07-2015, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I take it that you is as a good human being [not necessary the best Muslim] is not influenced by the Quran to 'hate' non-Muslims.
If you have not cultivated 'hate'/contempt for non-Muslims as expected in the Quran you may lose some merit points to qualify you paradise.


There may be some non-Muslims who condemned Muslims but that is because of the obvious terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims. Their condemnation is not based on some holy texts and their God.


Note this is what the Quran and Islam in totality view of non-Muslims negatively in the worse light;
5:60. Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs [infidels] for retribution with Allah? Worse (is the case of him) [infidel] whom Allah hath cursed, him [Kafir] on whom His wrath [on Jews] hath fallen! Worse is he [infidel] of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such [infidels] are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.


98:6. Lo! those [infidels] who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They [infidels] are the worst of created beings.


7:166. So when they [Jews -infidels] took pride in that which they [infidels] had been forbidden, We said unto them [infidel Jews]: Be ye apes despised and loathed!


22:44. (And) the dwellers in Midian. And Moses was denied; but I [Allah] indulged the disbelievers [infidels] a long while, then I seized them [infidels], and how (terrible) was My abhorrence!
The above is merely a sample of hundreds of verses where Allah [aka Muhammad] condemned and dehumanized non-Muslims [them] like a piece of sh:t. Once non-Muslims are dehumanized like sh;t, they are easily dispensed with, oppressed, and killed by SOME Muslims in accordance to the doctrines of the Quran.


I suggest again you reread your Quran with a more objective approach.
That is actually based upon Jewish scripture. As I have said many times there is nothing in the Qur'an that does not come from earlier scripture


—Biblical Data:

These animals are mentioned in I Kings, x. 22, and the parallel passage in II Chron. ix. 21, as having been brought, with gold, silver, ivory, and peacocks, by ships of Tarshish from Ophir (compare II Chron. viii. 18). The Hebrew name ḳof is a loan-word from the Tamil kapi, from which indeed the Teutonic ape is also a loan with the loss of the guttural, so that the Hebrew and the English words are identical. In Egyptian the form gôfë occurs. The Indian origin of the name has been used to identify Ophir with Abhira at the mouth of the Indus (see Vinson, "Revue de Philologie," iii.). The Assyrians, however, were acquainted with Apes, which were brought to them as tribute. Apes are not now and almost certainly never were either indigenous to Palestine or acclimatized there.
—In Rabbinical Literature:

The rabbis appear to have had some acquaintance with Apes. They knew that they were like man, and for that reason the blessing on Him "who varieth his creatures" was to be said at sight of an ape (Ber. 58b). They compared man in old age to an ape (Eccl. R. i. 2; Tan., Peḳude, 3). To see an ape in a dream is unlucky, because of his ugliness (Ber.57b). Apes were regarded as a luxury (Eccl.R.vi.11), and were trained to perform as servants, to clear out vessels (Yoma, 29b), or to pour water on the hands (Yad. i. 5). On the other hand, it was erroneously thought that it took them three years to bring forth (Bek. 8a), and they were included in the class of beasts, with the dog, wild ass, and elephant (Kil. viii. 6). Toharness any of these would not be reckoned an infringement of Deut. xxii. 10. There was a legend to the effect that of the three classes of men that built the Tower of Babel, one was turned into Apes (Sanh. 109a; compare Yalḳ., Gen. 62). Apes were used as a method of disadvantageous comparison; thus, Sarah was to Eve as an ape to man; Eve to Adam; and Adam to God (B. B. 58a).
APES - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Also SEE: https://books.google.com/books?id=YS...0BIBLE&f=false
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Old 12-07-2015, 06:43 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,908,692 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As to why Allaah(swt) simply did not reveal the qur'an to everybody, I do not know I can only find reasons why it makes sense he did not.

One being the belief in Allaah(swt) has to come from our own finding, not from any teachings. If the Qur'an had been revealed miraculously to all people, every one would be a believer, there would be no logical way to deny his existence. Our believing would not be free choice even when confronted by many people that do not believe. It is one of the trials of life.
Thanks for that opinion, Woodrow. I am not comfortable with it though. I am ALWAYS skeptical with the idea that some deity chooses ONE person to convey his message to everyone else. The potential for deception is greatly increased. I hold NO man as more worthy than me to "hear from God." If we are expected to "hear from God" and "listen with our hearts" as believers, why the need FIRST to listen to another man tell us how to get started?
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Old 12-07-2015, 06:56 AM
 
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.




Quote:
5:60. Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs [infidels] for retribution with Allah? Worse (is the case of him) [infidel] whom Allah hath cursed, him [Kafir] on whom His wrath [on Jews] hath fallen! Worse is he [infidel] of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such [infidels] are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.
I've have seen some of those, and they do look and behave like apes. I don't know if they will be reborn as apes in another life.




Wassalaam. devotee
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Old 12-07-2015, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Thanks for that opinion, Woodrow. I am not comfortable with it though. I am ALWAYS skeptical with the idea that some deity chooses ONE person to convey his message to everyone else. The potential for deception is greatly increased. I hold NO man as more worthy than me to "hear from God." If we are expected to "hear from God" and "listen with our hearts" as believers, why the need FIRST to listen to another man tell us how to get started?
For those that hear and listen with their hearts, it can be said Allaah(swt) will guide those who desire to be guided. The Prophets(PBUT) have been sent to all people of all nations, not just to believers, but also to non-believers. Every opportunity is there for any one to learn of Allaah(swt)

Call the Scriptures of the Prophets(PBUT) as being registered mail for those who might have over looked the message.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:01 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Thanks for that opinion, Woodrow. I am not comfortable with it though. I am ALWAYS skeptical with the idea that some deity chooses ONE person to convey his message to everyone else. The potential for deception is greatly increased. I hold NO man as more worthy than me to "hear from God." If we are expected to "hear from God" and "listen with our hearts" as believers, why the need FIRST to listen to another man tell us how to get started?
And what kind of creator of the universe would choose this kind of man as his messenger:

Muhammed let his men mass rape women:
"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do coitus interruptus. A soul that which Allah has destined to exist will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

Muhammed sold women:
"Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham/Hisham 693)

Muhammed owned and traded slaves and promoted keeping slaves:
Narrated Kurib: the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, "Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?" He said, "Have you really?" She replied in the affirmative. He said, "You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles."
— Sahih al-Bukhari, 3:47:765

Muhammed, at 53 years old, had sex with a 4th grader:
Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old."

Muhammed handed our captive girls like party favors.
The apostle gave Ali a girl called Rayta; and he gave Uthman a girl called Zaynab; and he gave Umar a girl whom Umar gave to his son Abdullah. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 878)

That's the tip of the iceberg.

And we're expected to first believe that this superbeing exists (just reading the Quran is evidence against this being true) and also believe that such a superbeing would pick a perverted monster as his prophet.

Doesn't pass the sniff test.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:06 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
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Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.

I've have seen some of those, and they do look and behave like apes. I don't know if they will be reborn as apes in another life.




Wassalaam. devotee
I suggest you stop with the hate speech.

Those people have given more to benefit mankind than Muslims ever have.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X38JLOks8Ho
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That is actually based upon Jewish scripture. As I have said many times there is nothing in the Qur'an that does not come from earlier scripture
Wherever the dehumanizing phrases are [Jewish, OT, NT or anywhere], in principle they are universally morally wrong. As such, they must be addressed and dealt with according to ensure they do not translated to evils and violence by believers or readers.


The fact is Muhammad has the advantage of thousands of years ahead of the Torah and if his moral compass has been high [should be high since he supposed to be an exemplar], he should not have plagiarized that idea from the Jewish scripture to dehumanize non-Muslims.


It is not only the dehumanizing term 'apes' but the whole context of the Quran [with other degrading terms] is directed with contempt and a very dehumanizing tone toward non-Muslims. This is one basis why SOME evil prone Muslims are so inspired to treat non-Muslims as 'sh:t' and not another human being.


Quote:
As I have said many times there is nothing in the Qur'an that does not come from earlier scripture.
Nothing??
I don't think hijacking the wife of one's adopted son is from any earlier scriptures. I am quite certain there are more if I were to scrutinize and compare the Quran to the earlier scriptures.
Most of the ideas borrowed from the earlier scriptures are full of errors.


Whatever is generic, universal and immoral is WRONG. There is no excuse [apparently you are trying to do that] to condone it positively just because some others are using it within their own context.
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