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Old 11-23-2015, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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I believe to understand the Jihadist's mind, the most effective approach is to listen to what they have to say.


Here are views from a so-called jihadist;



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJENp68YBKY


I find the interviewer very incompetent and was stepped all over by Anjem.


My question is, did any of Anjem's views contradict the Quran-MGA-610?
[other than he agreeing with stoning to death for adultery which is not in the Quran].
Interestingly Anjem Choudary also mentioned the covenant with Allah.


Btw, I personally do not agree with Choudry's views which are very evil.
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Old 11-23-2015, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is another video where Anjem Choudry repeated and reinforced his 'jihadist' views.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNSbkWVSDpM

Last edited by Continuum; 11-23-2015 at 09:53 PM.. Reason: Add video link
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Old 11-24-2015, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is another video where Anjem Choudry repeated and reinforced his 'jihadist' views.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNSbkWVSDpM
You will find that very many of us do not agree with Choudary.

To what extent does Anjem Choudary represent the Muslim population? - Telegraph


Like all Muslims he does not represent Islam. A Muslim can only speak for himself. Many of US object very much to Choudary's views

https://www.facebook.com/MuslimsAgainstAnjemChoudary/

while some people think he is preaching true Muslim, many of us feel he has failed to read where the Qur'an teaches moderation

6.30 Moral Teachings of Islam- Moderation & Generosity
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Old 11-24-2015, 10:57 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You will find that very many of us do not agree with Choudary.

To what extent does Anjem Choudary represent the Muslim population? - Telegraph


Like all Muslims he does not represent Islam. A Muslim can only speak for himself. Many of US object very much to Choudary's views

https://www.facebook.com/MuslimsAgainstAnjemChoudary/

while some people think he is preaching true Muslim, many of us feel he has failed to read where the Qur'an teaches moderation

6.30 Moral Teachings of Islam- Moderation & Generosity
Let's look at your link:

"To start with the Quran regards excessive materialism an animal like behavior. Fore example in (47:12) it says that “While those who reject Allah will enjoy (this world) and eat as cattle eat; and the Fire will be their abode.” In other words a person who rejects God and just engages in excessive pleasure does not have the status of a human."

The punishment for excessive materialism is horrible endless torture. Guess what. Endless horrible torture is extreme. And extremely evil.

Here we go with the fire again:
"We have also seen in the Quran where it says to seek the pleasure of God but don’t forget your share of this life. There is a beautiful verse in the Quran in (2:201) that the Prophet (PBUH) used to repeat in supplication after the prayer “Our Lord! Give us good in this world and good in the Hereafter, and defend us from the torment of the Fire!” This verse combines between moderation and benefit in both lives. The ideal situation in Islam is neither deprivation or excessive materialism but moderation and balance."

Burn all the rich/materialistic people and torture them for all eternity. A bit extreme.

"What determines what is excessive and what is reasonable is partly determined by the customs and by the changes in time and place. There are some very clear cases for example a person eating five chickens for a snack. There are many grey areas when it comes to specifics. In some countries a car is a luxury in other places it is a basic necessity for life."

I wonder if 13 wives and a few concubines would be excessive.....

I'm laughing too hard to go on.
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Old 11-24-2015, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You will find that very many of us do not agree with Choudary.

To what extent does Anjem Choudary represent the Muslim population? - Telegraph


Like all Muslims he does not represent Islam. A Muslim can only speak for himself. Many of US object very much to Choudary's views

https://www.facebook.com/MuslimsAgainstAnjemChoudary/

while some people think he is preaching true Muslim, many of us feel he has failed to read where the Qur'an teaches moderation

6.30 Moral Teachings of Islam- Moderation & Generosity
Your points above do not support your intended view of Islam.


However it does support my thesis, i.e.

1. 20% of humans including Muslims are inherently evil prone.
2. More than 55% of the 6,236 of the Quran verses has evil laden elements [of various degrees], thererfore Islam-in-part is inherently evil.
3. The Quran is the core and central authority of Islam.
4. Islam is partly to be blamed for all the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims.
Obviously there are people who do not agree with evil prone Choudary. That is because 8 in 10 of Muslims are not evil prone. But this does not absolve Islam-in-part from being part of the problem of Islamic violence. Note my point 90% [likely] of Catholics practice contraception but that does not absolve Catholicism from it anti-contraception doctrines.


Note your link provide the answer to my point;
To what extent does Anjem Choudary represent the Muslim population? - Telegraph


Quote:
The simple, if obfuscating answer is ‘some’, and no one, including Choudary, really knows quite how many. Although it is difficult to estimate, across Europe, what the French call the “element radical”, it is estimated to be anywhere between one and 15 per cent of Muslims. In France, this is believed to be between 300,000 - 500,000 people.
In the Netherlands, about five per cent of the Muslim population practices a ‘conservative’ form of Islam, which equates to approximately 45,000 people. In Denmark it is thought to be ‘a small segment’, but it is impossible to put precise information on it. In the UK, surveys have variously depicted that between two and 20 per cent of British Muslims hold some sympathy with the motives of those who carried out the London 7/7 attacks, although what exactly that means is not clear. Even if only a tiny sub-section go on to be involved in terrorist activity, that still represents a major national security threat.

Quote:
while some people think he is preaching true Muslim, many of us feel he has failed to read where the Qur'an teaches moderation.
So you admit Choudary do comply with the Quran but not the 'moderate' part.


The fact is Choudary complies [and complied] with the Quran as covenanted in the main spirit/ethos of Islam. Whatever is deemed 'moderate' is not significant to Islam and the individual's journey to heaven. Besides most of these 'moderate' terms are overridden by the more aggressive martial ethos of the Medinian verses.


I believe Choudary is a more truer Muslims than the average Muslims because he would have accumulated more merit points for Judgment Day.
What counts is the merit points that is recorded in the book [illiyin] to the individual Muslims. Why should he be moderate to non-Muslims at the expense of his cumulated merit points in the illiyin. Note my proposals and thesis on using the 6,236 verses of the Quran as a checklist. which Choudary would have done implicitly to comply with the terms and conditions of his covenant with Allah.


Therefore based on these points;
1. 20% of humans including Muslims are inherently evil prone.
2. More than 55% of the 6,236 of the Quran verses has evil laden elements [of various degrees], thererfore Islam-in-part is inherently evil.
3. The Quran is the core and central authority of Islam.
4. Islam is partly to be blamed for all the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims.


The rise of the jihadists is inevitable due to the above 1-4, i.e. existence of Islam which in part contribute to the problem of Islamic violence.
This is because we cannot control the 20% of naturally evil prone human beings. In addition Muslims cannot change, edit nor remove the evil laden elements from the Quran -the immutable words of God.


Therefore as long as Islam exists as is it, Islam-in-part will catalyze and inspire SOME from the pool of 20% [300 million] evil prone Muslims.


This is the objective position you have to admit and acknowledge and there is no room for you to deny nor counter.
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Old 11-24-2015, 08:40 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
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Great posts above. juju's also with a terrible undeniable humor.
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Old 11-25-2015, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma USA
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A whole huge lot of "violent jihadism" is related to age demographics.

Typically, younger people are more prone to violence than are older people.

Around the world, the average non-Muslim is 30 years old, the average Muslim is 23.

サ Muslim and Non-Muslim Median Age

The part of the brain that has to mature fully so that a person actually understands the consequences of violence and thinks through committing violence or refraining from it, does not really "gel" until one is about 25.
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Old 11-25-2015, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodmockingbird View Post
A whole huge lot of "violent jihadism" is related to age demographics.

Typically, younger people are more prone to violence than are older people.

Around the world, the average non-Muslim is 30 years old, the average Muslim is 23.

サ Muslim and Non-Muslim Median Age

The part of the brain that has to mature fully so that a person actually understands the consequences of violence and thinks through committing violence or refraining from it, does not really "gel" until one is about 25.
Very good point.

It does seem an age range is a very common denominator for most people that commit acts of violence. It is a violent era through every Race, nationality, religion and political ideology. If there is a commonality for most violence, similar ages would be it.

Perhaps we could end violence by executing everybody at the age of 18. But that would be very violent.
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Old 11-25-2015, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Very good point.

It does seem an age range is a very common denominator for most people that commit acts of violence. It is a violent era through every Race, nationality, religion and political ideology. If there is a commonality for most violence, similar ages would be it.

Perhaps we could end violence by executing everybody at the age of 18. But that would be very violent.
Nah it is as usual a very narrow minded point that do not take into account the full perspectives of things.


One should note the most critical ultimate root causes are by the preaching of older evil prone clergies who are mostly above 40 who [are coward themselves] inspire the younger ones to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims.
Note the leaders of Al Qaeda, ISIS and other jihadists groups, most [with exceptions] are led by charismatic leaders [imans, sheiks, ustaz, ayatollahs, ] who are above 40 and up to >70 years old.
One can confirm this from google and youtube.


It is not likely for a young Muslim age 18-25 [if any -rare exception] to command respect from other Muslims or are inspirational enough to inspire Muslims to evil.


Even if there is a young leader [exception], he would have to make reference to some older cleric.


Quote:
Perhaps we could end violence by executing everybody at the age of 18. But that would be very violent.
I don't believe Muslims [even the evil prone ones] themselves are the real culprit and to be blamed.
The culprit are the evil laden verses in the Quran, the Hadiths, the charismatic evil prone clerics who inspire the vulnerable Muslims to commit terrible evils.


We could end the violence by getting rid of all the evil laden elements [of no real impact to the eschatological and soteriological purpose] in the Quran. But unfortunately that is impossible as by default the Quran is the perfect word of Allah and thus cannot be changed, edited, removed nor compromised.


We could get rid of the Quran-thereby Islam, but that would be cruel to the majority of Muslims who need religion critically at present.


So we have to tolerate with religions and Islam at present, but in the longer run [in 100 years?] humanity must wean off all religions [Islam as a priority] and replace them with fool proof approaches to deal with the inherent an unavoidable existential dilemma within all humans.

Last edited by Continuum; 11-25-2015 at 08:46 PM..
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Old 11-26-2015, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Nah it is as usual a very narrow minded point that do not take into account the full perspectives of things.


One should note the most critical ultimate root causes are by the preaching of older evil prone clergies who are mostly above 40 who [are coward themselves] inspire the younger ones to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims.
Note the leaders of Al Qaeda, ISIS and other jihadists groups, most [with exceptions] are led by charismatic leaders [imans, sheiks, ustaz, ayatollahs, ] who are above 40 and up to >70 years old.
One can confirm this from google and youtube.


It is not likely for a young Muslim age 18-25 [if any -rare exception] to command respect from other Muslims or are inspirational enough to inspire Muslims to evil.


Even if there is a young leader [exception], he would have to make reference to some older cleric.


I don't believe Muslims [even the evil prone ones] themselves are the real culprit and to be blamed.
The culprit are the evil laden verses in the Quran, the Hadiths, the charismatic evil prone clerics who inspire the vulnerable Muslims to commit terrible evils.


We could end the violence by getting rid of all the evil laden elements [of no real impact to the eschatological and soteriological purpose] in the Quran. But unfortunately that is impossible as by default the Quran is the perfect word of Allah and thus cannot be changed, edited, removed nor compromised.


We could get rid of the Quran-thereby Islam, but that would be cruel to the majority of Muslims who need religion critically at present.


So we have to tolerate with religions and Islam at present, but in the longer run [in 100 years?] humanity must wean off all religions [Islam as a priority] and replace them with fool proof approaches to deal with the inherent an unavoidable existential dilemma within all humans.
I disagree with this:
Quote:
I don't believe Muslims [even the evil prone ones] themselves are the real culprit and to be blamed.
The culprit are the evil laden verses in the Quran, the Hadiths,
The vast majority of us do not find any promotion of violence in the Qur'an. that seems to be something only Muslim radicals with a strong predisposition for violence, and some non-Muslims do.

I do agree with this:

Quote:
the charismatic evil prone clerics who inspire the vulnerable Muslims to commit terrible evils.
Although we are not to blindly follow any religious leader there are some that do.

I also agree with this:

Quote:
One should note the most critical ultimate root causes are by the preaching of older evil prone clergies who are mostly above 40 who [are coward themselves] inspire the younger ones to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims.
Note the leaders of Al Qaeda, ISIS and other jihadists groups, most [with exceptions] are led by charismatic leaders [imans, sheiks, ustaz, ayatollahs, ] who are above 40 and up to >70 years old.
One can confirm this from google and youtube.
Many people including some Muslims are unaware their are no ordained Clergy in Islam (2 exceptions that do have oredained clergy the 12er sect of Shj'a and the NOI) every Muslim is clergy and all clergy are equal with no Clerical Hierarchy. Many of the titles are misunderstood. There is no central criteria for an Imam and no authority that appoints Imams. An Imam can be self appointed. There also is no religious authority that oversees the construction of Mosques are gives or denies anyone permission to build a Mosque. The name Mosque is not trademarked or pattented.

There is nothing that would prevent a non-Muslim from constructing a building, call it a Mosque and call himself Imam. I believe that has been done at least a few times.

Some thoughts regarding that.
Quote:
Shaping the Baha段 Faith:
Abdu値-Baha痴 writings have remained very influential within the Baha段 Faith to the present day. His list of the ten principles of Baha置値lah is still commonly repeated today as the central goals of the Baha段 Faith despite the fact that several of the principles do not appear in Baha置値lah痴 writings at all.

Death and Burial:
Abdu値-Baha was accorded Muslim funeral services by local clergy. Abdu値-Baha, along with many other Baha段, regularly attended Islamic mosques for prayers, so this was not out of the ordinary. The body was then interred within the tomb of the Bab, which he had helped create.
https://bahaisects.wordpress.com/201...ended-mosques/

Also when the NOI first formed it was quite far from Islam as known in the rest of the world.
From the NOI website the first 3 paragraphs of the origin of the "Nation of Islam"

Quote:
Nation of Islam in America: A Nation of Beauty & Peace

On July the Fourth, the day of America痴 Independence celebration, He announced the beginning of His mission which was to restore and to resurrect His lost and found people, who were identified as the original members of the Tribe of Shabazz from the Lost Nation of Asia. The lost people of the original nation of African descent, were captured, exploited, and dehumanized to serve as servitude slaves of America for over three centuries. His mission was to teach the downtrodden and defenseless Black people a thorough Knowledge of God and of themselves, and to put them on the road to Self-Independence with a superior culture and higher civilization than they had previously experienced.

He taught us the ways of love and peace, of truth and beauty. We are being led into the path of a new spiritual culture and civilization of complete harmony and peace, one of refinement in the pursuit of happiness and eternal joy in the Supreme Knowledge of God and the Science of everything in life.

IN 1931, THE MASTER WAS preaching this Great Truth of salvation when He met a man named Elijah Poole in Detroit, Michigan. He chose him to be His Divine Representative in continuing this most difficult task of bringing truth and light to His lost and found people. For 3 1/2 years He taught and trained the Honorable Elijah Muhammad night and day into the profound Secret Wisdom of the Reality of God, which included the hidden knowledge of the original people who were the first founders of civilization of our Planet and who had a full knowledge of the Universal Order of Things from the beginning of the Divine Creation.
NOI History | The Nation of Islam Official Website |




The title sheik is a title of respect. It corresponds very closely to the English sir or mister. I carry the title of Sheik simply as acknowledgement and respect for being older than many other people. Some other people that get called Sheik: a Community leader, a landowner, an employer, a person who has achieved a PhD in Qur'anic studies (or any other discipline)


But you are right the despots are usually old cowards that persude gullible juveniles into doing their dirty work. You do not see any old man suicide bombers.
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