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Old 11-27-2015, 09:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While Allaah(does know all things that will happen it is still because of our own free will.

Unlike Christians we do not Believe God(swt) exists to benifit us. We are very much at the mercy of natural physics and the actions of humans.

Life is a trial in which we have to take full responsibility for our choices. We all are subject to uncontrollable events. A Muslim has no magical exemption from the events of natural events. We all(Atheists, Theists, Agnostics and even non-humans) face the same whims of life.

A Muslim loves Allaah(swt) not because of what he does for us, but because we have the Ability to love him. Our love for Allaah(swt) does not benefit Allaah(swt) it benefits us.
Free will does not cause disease or natural disasters. Nor would a loving, caring, peace loving, do no harm, all powerful god.

In fact, your god exists to harm us. This god created everything. And much of it is harmful to humans. Snakes, spiders, natural disasters, disease, poison mushrooms....this god did not create a loving universe. You can't eat your cake and have it, too. If this god of yours is all powerful and all knowing and created everything. then this god is responsible for all harm and evil. He even gave you an evil book demanding/encouraging hate and war and slaughter and rape and terrorism....and a prophet as an example that you should do such things.

Some of us are just better equipped to face and handle reality, and it's not the god believers.
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Old 11-27-2015, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Free will does not cause disease or natural disasters. Nor would a loving, caring, peace loving, do no harm, all powerful god.

In fact, your god exists to harm us. This god created everything. And much of it is harmful to humans. Snakes, spiders, natural disasters, disease, poison mushrooms....this god did not create a loving universe. You can't eat your cake and have it, too. If this god of yours is all powerful and all knowing and created everything. then this god is responsible for all harm and evil. He even gave you an evil book demanding/encouraging hate and war and slaughter and rape and terrorism....and a prophet as an example that you should do such things.

Some of us are just better equipped to face and handle reality, and it's not the god believers.
I assume then you are saying Disease, famine, war, natural disasters etc are caused by God(swt)
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Old 11-27-2015, 11:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I assume then you are saying Disease, famine, war, natural disasters etc are caused by God(swt)
Nope. I don't believe in such a supernatural being. You do and here's what your Quran says:

2 106 Yusuf Ali
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

3:156 It is Allah that gives life and causes death. And Allah is All-Seer of what you do.

2 26 Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things. 2:29

3:47 She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is.

3:191 Who remember Allah while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly; exalted are You [above such a thing]; then protect us from the punishment of the Fire.

4 132-133 And to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. If it were His will, He could destroy you, o mankind, and create another race; for He hath power this to do.

6 1[All] praise is [due] to Allah , who created the heavens and the earth and made the darkness and the light. Then those who disbelieve equate [others] with their Lord.

6 73 And it is He who created the heavens and earth in truth. And the day He says, "Be," and it is,
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Old 11-27-2015, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,355,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Nope. I don't believe in such a supernatural being. You do and here's what your Quran says:

2 106 Yusuf Ali
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

3:156 It is Allah that gives life and causes death. And Allah is All-Seer of what you do.

2 26 Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things. 2:29

3:47 She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is.

3:191 Who remember Allah while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly; exalted are You [above such a thing]; then protect us from the punishment of the Fire.

4 132-133 And to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. If it were His will, He could destroy you, o mankind, and create another race; for He hath power this to do.

6 1[All] praise is [due] to Allah , who created the heavens and the earth and made the darkness and the light. Then those who disbelieve equate [others] with their Lord.

6 73 And it is He who created the heavens and earth in truth. And the day He says, "Be," and it is,
And he has given us free will.

We have free will only because Allaah(swt) has allowed us. He could have created us as angels with no free will.

These would not be possible without free will

These would not be possible without free willd He over all things hath Power; He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.” (67:1-2).

“God does not burden any soul with more than it can bear: each gains whatever good it has done, and suffers its bad.” (2:286)
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Old 11-27-2015, 04:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
And he has given us free will.

We have free will only because Allaah(swt) has allowed us. He could have created us as angels with no free will.

These would not be possible without free will

These would not be possible without free willd He over all things hath Power; He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.” (67:1-2).

“God does not burden any soul with more than it can bear: each gains whatever good it has done, and suffers its bad.” (2:286)
Yes, according to you he has given us free will. Do you get that. Why did he 'give us free will'? What was the purpose? According to Islam, the answer is clear, and horrifying.

Allah gave humans free will so he could toy with them and terribly torture them for eternity, if they used their free will in a way he did not like. And that way was not submitting to allah's evil.

Right now, allah is buy torturing billions of souls....hanging women on hooks by their breasts. Watching souls burn in agony, "Every time they want to get out of Hellfire from anguish, they will be returned to it, and [it will be said], "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire!....When the Hellfire sees them from a distant place, they will hear its fury and roaring......Seize him and drag him into the midst of the Hellfire...for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

Muhammed raped a child, he and his men mass raped women with allah's explicit approval, Muhammed had people slaughtered if they made fun of him and allah, Muhammed owned and traded slaves and sold women, stole from people, demanded terrorism and hate (and so did allah)....allah never had a problem with any of this. Muhammed was his prophet and perfect example.

But if someone exercised their free will and decided not to follow such evil, allah was only too happy to do some horrible torture for all eternity on them.

Allah could well have made all of us Muslims with a wave of his almighty hand. He could have done away with cancer and natural disasters and wars....but instead he sat back and enjoyed the horrors he created.

Never, ever has there been such evil as this. I am so thankful I do not have a mind that believes in such evil.
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Old 11-27-2015, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
2,202 posts, read 1,435,785 times
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Allah is a counterfeit god ( ancient moon god ) in Arabic Allah means god but essentially lower
case ( pagan) Allah is a frabicated deity of man made manufactured religion and as with many relig -ions has many eartickling good food content , philosophically acceptable and applicable life lessons and guidelines. The underlying all the nice is a message which hints exclusivity, control, dominance, rule and necessity for conversion or else ( isn't THAT special???!!!)........no ....red flag!!!! The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is omnipresent and omnipotent and if Allah can qualify with that resume than we Christians are wrong ! The Allah version of God defies scripture substituted by the ramblings of Quran.

Last edited by openmike; 11-27-2015 at 05:11 PM..
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Old 11-27-2015, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,355,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Yes, according to you he has given us free will. Do you get that. Why did he 'give us free will'? What was the purpose? According to Islam, the answer is clear, and horrifying.

Allah gave humans free will so he could toy with them and terribly torture them for eternity, if they used their free will in a way he did not like. And that way was not submitting to allah's evil.

Right now, allah is buy torturing billions of souls....hanging women on hooks by their breasts. Watching souls burn in agony, "Every time they want to get out of Hellfire from anguish, they will be returned to it, and [it will be said], "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire!....When the Hellfire sees them from a distant place, they will hear its fury and roaring......Seize him and drag him into the midst of the Hellfire...for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

Muhammed raped a child, he and his men mass raped women with allah's explicit approval, Muhammed had people slaughtered if they made fun of him and allah, Muhammed owned and traded slaves and sold women, stole from people, demanded terrorism and hate (and so did allah)....allah never had a problem with any of this. Muhammed was his prophet and perfect example.

But if someone exercised their free will and decided not to follow such evil, allah was only too happy to do some horrible torture for all eternity on them.

Allah could well have made all of us Muslims with a wave of his almighty hand. He could have done away with cancer and natural disasters and wars....but instead he sat back and enjoyed the horrors he created.

Never, ever has there been such evil as this. I am so thankful I do not have a mind that believes in such evil.
I have no objection for anyone believing different from me. Each of us should only believe what we ourself has found to be true. You have your reasons to believe as you do and my only desire is that is through your own free-will and knowledge.

For myself I have found reason to believe Allaah(swt) exists and the proper way to worship him is to submit to him to the best of our ability and knowledge.

As most people in my life are not Muslim, I often get faced with people trying to convince me Islam is wrong. So far no one has done so, and at my age it is quite certain they do not have many years left in which to do so. Also no one has been able to convince me the Qur'an promotes violence or that Muhammad(saws) ever raped or murdered anyone or ever permitted rape and murder, nor did he engage in pedophilia, Even though for at least 45 years of my life I was convinced those things were true.
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Old 11-27-2015, 06:20 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 759,198 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I have no objection for anyone believing different from me. Each of us should only believe what we ourself has found to be true. You have your reasons to believe as you do and my only desire is that is through your own free-will and knowledge.

For myself I have found reason to believe Allaah(swt) exists and the proper way to worship him is to submit to him to the best of our ability and knowledge.

As most people in my life are not Muslim, I often get faced with people trying to convince me Islam is wrong. So far no one has done so, and at my age it is quite certain they do not have many years left in which to do so. Also no one has been able to convince me the Qur'an promotes violence or that Muhammad(saws) ever raped or murdered anyone or ever permitted rape and murder, nor did he engage in pedophilia, Even though for at least 45 years of my life I was convinced those things were true.
I can't think for you. You are responsible for your own decisions and the consequences. You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.
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Old 11-27-2015, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,355,359 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by openmike View Post
Allah is a counterfeit god ( ancient moon god ) in Arabic Allah means god but essentially lower
case ( pagan) Allah is a frabicated deity of man made manufactured religion and as with many relig -ions has many eartickling good food content , philosophically acceptable and applicable life lessons and guidelines. The underlying all the nice is a message which hints exclusivity, control, dominance, rule and necessity for conversion or else ( isn't THAT special???!!!)........no ....red flag!!!! The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is omnipresent and omnipotent and if Allah can qualify with that resume than we Christians are wrong ! The Allah version of God defies scripture substituted by the ramblings of Quran.
When I was Christian for about 43 years I began to question the existence of God(swt) one of my reasons was why would God(swt) be omnipresent if he did not need to be. He is capable of knowing all things without being there. It also did not make any sense for the creator to enter into what he has created.

22 years later I accepted Islam and a few years later I began reading the ahadith, tafsir, and Madhabs and discovered that most scholars voiced the opinion that God(swt) rarely if ever enters into the physical world. Notice that not one Prophet(pbut) has ever met God(swt) in person. Yes, he is very close to everyone, Muslim acknowledge he is closer to us than our own jugular vein. But that does not mean he is present physically, he is present in knowledge and able to make himself known though his creation and our thoughts and dreams. We can and do have a personal relationship with God(swt) without him being physicaly present as he need not be present for such. While God(swt) can be omnipresent if he desires, but,there is no need for him to enter the physical realm. He is all knowing and omnipotent. This is what I feel filled in the blanks I found in Christianity.

Disclaimer: This is not a view shared by all Muslims. There are Muslims that do believe he is omnipresent.

Yes, there are passages in the Qur'an that contradict Christian scripture. We believe the Qur'an corrected those errors. The Remainder of Christian scripture was and still is true. We agree with a very large percentage of Christian scripture and only differ where Christianity went astray.
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Old 11-27-2015, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I can't think for you. You are responsible for your own decisions and the consequences. You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.
I agree one hundred percent. I assume you also agree with that.
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