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Old 11-27-2015, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I personally was quite surprised that many scholars agreed with my belief that God(swt) was not omnipresent. That was a conclusion I arived at near the end of my Christian era. It was also one reason I became an Atheist at that time.

It appeared to me it was idiotic to think God(swt) to be everywhere when he already knows what will happen before it happens. I am not saying God(swt) can not choose to be everywhere, I am saying there is no need for him to be. Also he can observe everything without needing to be there. Just as an astronomer can calculate the trajectory of the moons of Jupiter without being on Jupiter.

If us humans can explore as much as 1 square inch of the surface of Mars without being on Mars not reason to doubt God(swt) can explore every atom of the universe without being physically in it. Iust as we have Mars rovers exploring Mars with no need for a human to be on mars, what prevents God(swt) from having a method of keeping close contact with humans without need to be physically among us?
Often what the majority [90%] believe to be true is seldom the truest and more so on matters that are complex. This is the same for believing God to be some sort of independent entity from his creations because that is the default of human thinking, not a supposedly-God's thinking.


As the Quran had stated, Allah is totally different from what a human being is.
So to think of what god is, you cannot use your common human sense [sometimes idiotic] but rather to use the higher reasoning powers God has given to humans.

Here is how one shift gears to the higher level thinking;

As I had said there is a difference between 'knowing what is there' and 'being there'.
If God only knows, that is only a theoretical God, i.e. a God who only know the theory and intellect aspect of reality.


Yes, god is not physically like humans but it is supposed to be 'physical' like invisible energy or radio waves that are everywhere, e.g. a cell-phone waves that one can access one's mobile operator from anywhere within its boundaries.
In God's case, God is omnipotent and omnipresent, so there is no boundaries to limit God's presence that is everywhere. As for the Abrahamic religion the God that is everywhere is not like the pantheists' God because the Abrahamic God has agency properties, i.e. can communicate to humans beings via his agents [prophets, angels. etc.]


God [if he exists] is physical like invisible energy, radio waves, sub-atomic particles that thus not only can God know every atom but God is everywhere and can know everything in reality.'
As I said, God is not an academic or intellectual being like humans but God has to be omnipresent [the necessary reach] to create and experience reality directly.


The Quran stated Allah is close/near [2:176] and closer to one's jugular vein.
If Allah is in this case is not Omni-close, i.e. omnipresent, then Allah is not the supreme most.


Like kindergarten kids always trying to be one-up on their friends, [mine is greater than yours], other theists can claim their God is more closer to the believer and their jugular vein than Allah.
In this case, how are you going to argue and justify your Allah is greater than their God?
If you think your Allah is 0.001 cm close, then the other guy will claim his God is 0.0000001 closer. Then another will claim his God is 0.000000000000001 closer, ......... and there goes the infinite regression till the cows come home.


The more the logical, smarter and intelligent theists will propose an Omni-close or omnipresent God to shut off all the other lesser Gods and stop the infinite regression.


Logically and philosophical there is no other way than to ensure your Allah is omnipresent and Omni-whatever [relevant] for a God.
In this case, everyone will claim their God is omnipresent and Omni-whatever [relevant] as the supreme most and they are all at the highest possible levels.
The point is for whatever property [positive] is assigned to God it has to be an 'Omni-' state so that no God can 'out-Omni-' your God.


Note Omni- is a state of an entity. A God who choose to be present everywhere as an when God want to do not have an omnipresent property.


If you want to claim Allah is not omnipresent, then logically your Allah is a lesser God than the God that is claimed to be omnipresent.


The Omni-whatever-positive God is that than which no greater can be conceived.
Such a definition leave no room for any one to make such a God inferior to any other God.


Whilst the Omni-whatever-positive God is the best for whatever the purpose [psychology, soteriological, whatever] it is impossible to exists as real within a critical philosophical framework.

Last edited by Continuum; 11-27-2015 at 09:45 PM..
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Old 11-28-2015, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Often what the majority [90%] believe to be true is seldom the truest and more so on matters that are complex. This is the same for believing God to be some sort of independent entity from his creations because that is the default of human thinking, not a supposedly-God's thinking.


As the Quran had stated, Allah is totally different from what a human being is.
So to think of what god is, you cannot use your common human sense [sometimes idiotic] but rather to use the higher reasoning powers God has given to humans.

Here is how one shift gears to the higher level thinking;

As I had said there is a difference between 'knowing what is there' and 'being there'.
If God only knows, that is only a theoretical God, i.e. a God who only know the theory and intellect aspect of reality.


Yes, god is not physically like humans but it is supposed to be 'physical' like invisible energy or radio waves that are everywhere, e.g. a cell-phone waves that one can access one's mobile operator from anywhere within its boundaries.
In God's case, God is omnipotent and omnipresent, so there is no boundaries to limit God's presence that is everywhere. As for the Abrahamic religion the God that is everywhere is not like the pantheists' God because the Abrahamic God has agency properties, i.e. can communicate to humans beings via his agents [prophets, angels. etc.]


God [if he exists] is physical like invisible energy, radio waves, sub-atomic particles that thus not only can God know every atom but God is everywhere and can know everything in reality.'
As I said, God is not an academic or intellectual being like humans but God has to be omnipresent [the necessary reach] to create and experience reality directly.


The Quran stated Allah is close/near [2:176] and closer to one's jugular vein.
If Allah is in this case is not Omni-close, i.e. omnipresent, then Allah is not the supreme most.


Like kindergarten kids always trying to be one-up on their friends, [mine is greater than yours], other theists can claim their God is more closer to the believer and their jugular vein than Allah.
In this case, how are you going to argue and justify your Allah is greater than their God?
If you think your Allah is 0.001 cm close, then the other guy will claim his God is 0.0000001 closer. Then another will claim his God is 0.000000000000001 closer, ......... and there goes the infinite regression till the cows come home.


The more the logical, smarter and intelligent theists will propose an Omni-close or omnipresent God to shut off all the other lesser Gods and stop the infinite regression.


Logically and philosophical there is no other way than to ensure your Allah is omnipresent and Omni-whatever [relevant] for a God.
In this case, everyone will claim their God is omnipresent and Omni-whatever [relevant] as the supreme most and they are all at the highest possible levels.
The point is for whatever property [positive] is assigned to God it has to be an 'Omni-' state so that no God can 'out-Omni-' your God.


Note Omni- is a state of an entity. A God who choose to be present everywhere as an when God want to do not have an omnipresent property.


If you want to claim Allah is not omnipresent, then logically your Allah is a lesser God than the God that is claimed to be omnipresent.


The Omni-whatever-positive God is that than which no greater can be conceived.
Such a definition leave no room for any one to make such a God inferior to any other God.


Whilst the Omni-whatever-positive God is the best for whatever the purpose [psychology, soteriological, whatever] it is impossible to exists as real within a critical philosophical framework.

Addressing this:

Quote:
If you want to claim Allah is not omnipresent, then logically your Allah is a lesser God than the God that is claimed to be omnipresent.
Buit wouldn't a God(swt) capable of being omnipotent, but able to accomplish all things with no need of being omnipotent be more powerful than the one that has to be omnipotent to accomplish all things?
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Old 11-28-2015, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Addressing this:

But wouldn't a God(swt) capable of being omnipotent, but able to accomplish all things with no need of being omnipotent be more powerful than the one that has to be omnipotent to accomplish all things?
Here is a down to earth analogy;
Say the USA [or Russia] is the most powerful [potent] nation on Earth.
But there is a difference when the USA do not have a presence on every inch of the Earth.
Because it is not present everywhere it is vulnerable to sabotages and terrorism activities.
Because of this weakness of presence, thus the USA is not the supreme most.
Thus the opportunity is open for another country to be supreme most if that country say Russia which may match USA in terms of power [potency] but has the additional criteria of presence everywhere on Earth.
Therefore to measure the supreme most, we need to measure all the relevant criteria.


In the case of God, the relevant criteria are;
1. Omnipotent
2. Omniscient
3. Omnipresent
4. Other Omni-properties necessary of a God.

If Allah has missing qualities, e.g. omnipresent, then Allah is a more inferior God to a God that claims all relevant Omni-properties.


Thus the intelligent and wise theists will always start by claiming their God has Omni-whatever properties necessary of a God. In this case, no one will be able to step on their God because there is no room for any one to downgrade their god with anything negative.
This is the first basic stance of how to establish one's god to the supreme most.


When every theists claims their god to be Omni-whatever properties necessary of a God as default, next they can argue/debate and compare their God based on the holy texts that is supposedly conveyed by their God.


What I pointed above is very philosophical, logical and rational. I don't see how you can argue with such a valid and sound argument.


If you do not claim your Allah as having omnipresent properties, then Allah is inferior to a God that claims all Omni-whatever properties necessary of a God. This is like not giving your Allah the due respect it is suppose to be the supreme most God.
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Old 11-29-2015, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is a down to earth analogy;
Say the USA [or Russia] is the most powerful [potent] nation on Earth.
But there is a difference when the USA do not have a presence on every inch of the Earth.
Because it is not present everywhere it is vulnerable to sabotages and terrorism activities.
Because of this weakness of presence, thus the USA is not the supreme most.
Thus the opportunity is open for another country to be supreme most if that country say Russia which may match USA in terms of power [potency] but has the additional criteria of presence everywhere on Earth.
Therefore to measure the supreme most, we need to measure all the relevant criteria.


In the case of God, the relevant criteria are;
1. Omnipotent
2. Omniscient
3. Omnipresent
4. Other Omni-properties necessary of a God.

If Allah has missing qualities, e.g. omnipresent, then Allah is a more inferior God to a God that claims all relevant Omni-properties.


Thus the intelligent and wise theists will always start by claiming their God has Omni-whatever properties necessary of a God. In this case, no one will be able to step on their God because there is no room for any one to downgrade their god with anything negative.
This is the first basic stance of how to establish one's god to the supreme most.


When every theists claims their god to be Omni-whatever properties necessary of a God as default, next they can argue/debate and compare their God based on the holy texts that is supposedly conveyed by their God.


What I pointed above is very philosophical, logical and rational. I don't see how you can argue with such a valid and sound argument.


If you do not claim your Allah as having omnipresent properties, then Allah is inferior to a God that claims all Omni-whatever properties necessary of a God. This is like not giving your Allah the due respect it is suppose to be the supreme most God.
All knowing actually eliminates the need to be omnipresent.

Using your analogy

Quote:
Here is a down to earth analogy;
Say the USA [or Russia] is the most powerful [potent] nation on Earth.
But there is a difference when the USA do not have a presence on every inch of the Earth.
Because it is not present everywhere it is vulnerable to sabotages and terrorism activities.
Because of this weakness of presence, thus the USA is not the supreme most.
Thus the opportunity is open for another country to be supreme most if that country say Russia which may match USA in terms of power [potency] but has the additional criteria of presence everywhere on Earth.
Therefore to measure the supreme most, we need to measure all the relevant criteria.
If the US has the means to know all things it has eliminated being vulnerable to sabotages and terrorism activities. As it knows when and where they will occur and has the knowledge to prevent them before they happen. Being Omnipotent and Omniscient as eliminated the need to be omnipotent. That does not mean (in your analogy) the US is incapable of being omnipresent, it is simply unnecessary.
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Old 11-29-2015, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
All knowing actually eliminates the need to be omnipresent.

Using your analogy

If the US has the means to know all things it has eliminated being vulnerable to sabotages and terrorism activities. As it knows when and where they will occur and has the knowledge to prevent them before they happen. Being Omnipotent and Omniscient as eliminated the need to be omnipotent. That does not mean (in your analogy) the US is incapable of being omnipresent, it is simply unnecessary.
Note my analogy is to explain in simple [to understand] terms why omnipresent is a prerequisite for omniscient.
When you said the US has all the means to know all things [this is theoretical]; those means [theoretically] has to include being present everywhere, in this case 'physically' since the US is not God in this analogy.


Since God is the US but supreme most, God's All being [omnipresent] is necessary for all knowing at least in complementarity.


As Allah is concern, Allah in involved in every aspect of reality, i.e. every atom to the minutest particle in all of the Universe.
The US do not involve in being concern for every atom on Earth and every aspect of reality.


Therefore in the case of God, the relevant criteria are;
1. Omnipotent
2. Omniscient
3. Omnipresent
4. Other Omni-properties necessary of a God.

If Allah has missing qualities, e.g. omnipresent, then Allah is a more inferior God to a God that claims all relevant Omni-properties.


In the Quran, it is stated Allah is on a throne somewhere. This can only be symbolic to denote Allah is the greatest. Perhaps this description [by Muhammad or a group of men] is to get the idea across to the majority uneducated Arabs then.
Now that we are in the modern era, the idea of a throne in the sky is an obsolete for most. Maybe one can bull**** some primitives tribes in Amazon, Papua and very uneducated Arabs or those with very insecured spirituality.


Logically, a God [if exists] must have Omni-properties[+ve] , else it would be an inferior God than one that claim God has ALL Omni-properties[+ve.


Perhaps you are right in insisting Allah of the Quran is not omnipresent, if that is the case, then that God of the Quran was concocted by inferior mind [s] by a person or a group of men.
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