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Old 11-24-2015, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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In this video, Bilal Philip claimed Allah is independent of the universe, in a throne above humans and thus cannot be omnipresent as claimed by Harun Yayha, Ibn-Arabi and others who claimed God is omnipresent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLjGs8Ma0OE


I believe God is an impossibility, but if God exists, then God has to be omnipresent.
A God which is not omnipresent and do not has all the relevant Omni-properties is a cheap low grade God.


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Old 11-25-2015, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In this video, Bilal Philip claimed Allah is independent of the universe, in a throne above humans and thus cannot be omnipresent as claimed by Harun Yayha, Ibn-Arabi and others who claimed God is omnipresent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLjGs8Ma0OE


I believe God is an impossibility, but if God exists, then God has to be omnipresent.
A God which is not omnipresent and do not has all the relevant Omni-properties is a cheap low grade God.


Views?
We believe Allaah(swt) is all knowing but is not omnipresent. He does not need to be every place as he knows what occurs every place. When I had a goldfish, I probably knew more about what went on inside the bowl than the fish did, I did not have to enter the fishbowl.

The Creator does not demean himself by reducing himself to the physical universe, The creator is greater than all he has created.
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Old 11-25-2015, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We believe Allaah(swt) is all knowing but is not omnipresent. He does not need to be every place as he knows what occurs every place. When I had a goldfish, I probably knew more about what went on inside the bowl than the fish did, I did not have to enter the fishbowl.

The Creator does not demean himself by reducing himself to the physical universe, The creator is greater than all he has created.
A supreme God must in default have the basic Omni-properties, i.e. omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent.


So the argument is, there is a difference between knowing and being.
If you are, say, in the US, how do you really know what is going on in the North Pole if you are not there.
You have may get a report from someone who is there but that is secondary knowing.
So to be more in the know, you will have to fly to the North Pole and experience the knowledge first hand.


Re your goldfish; What you have is direct perception and secondary knowledge of the your goldfish.
But how much do you know what is going on inside the goldfish, the brains, the various systems, the molecular structures, the atom and sub-atomic particles and whatever is related to the fishbowl, the water, and the goldfish?


God [if supposedly exists] know everything there is to know [no stone unturned] because God is omnipresent in everything [down to sub-atomic particles and the smallest particle one can think of] and thus can have direct knowledge of everything there is. Note this point of omnipresence have been debated extensively in theology.


If Allah is not omnipresent, then Allah is a very limited and a conditional God.


Note;
The Holy Qur’an says that ‘wherever you turn yours face, you will find Allah - Allah is everywhere. 2:115


Many Muslims argued that God is not everywhere physically but that is wrong and narrow thinking.
God is both physically and transcendentally everywhere.
Why most Muslims are narrow minded is because they have some elements of anthropomorphizing God like a human being. God cannot exists in the form like any semblance to a human being but more like an entity that is comprised of element like energy which is everywhere.


Many Muslims claim Allah is everywhere through his knowledge. This is weird and irrational.
Rightly, Allah is omniscient only because Allah is omnipresent and it is on this basis that Allah exercise his power of omnipotence.
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Old 11-25-2015, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A supreme God must in default have the basic Omni-properties, i.e. omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent.


So the argument is, there is a difference between knowing and being.
If you are, say, in the US, how do you really know what is going on in the North Pole if you are not there.
You have may get a report from someone who is there but that is secondary knowing.
So to be more in the know, you will have to fly to the North Pole and experience the knowledge first hand.


Re your goldfish; What you have is direct perception and secondary knowledge of the your goldfish.
But how much do you know what is going on inside the goldfish, the brains, the various systems, the molecular structures, the atom and sub-atomic particles and whatever is related to the fishbowl, the water, and the goldfish?


God [if supposedly exists] know everything there is to know [no stone unturned] because God is omnipresent in everything [down to sub-atomic particles and the smallest particle one can think of] and thus can have direct knowledge of everything there is. Note this point of omnipresence have been debated extensively in theology.


If Allah is not omnipresent, then Allah is a very limited and a conditional God.


Note;
The Holy Qur’an says that ‘wherever you turn yours face, you will find Allah - Allah is everywhere. 2:115


Many Muslims argued that God is not everywhere physically but that is wrong and narrow thinking.
God is both physically and transcendentally everywhere.
Why most Muslims are narrow minded is because they have some elements of anthropomorphizing God like a human being. God cannot exists in the form like any semblance to a human being but more like an entity that is comprised of element like energy which is everywhere.


Many Muslims claim Allah is everywhere through his knowledge. This is weird and irrational.
Rightly, Allah is omniscient only because Allah is omnipresent and it is on this basis that Allah exercise his power of omnipotence.

From what I have found through debates with scholars and reading various Tafsir(commentaries) the concept is we are a physical manifestation of a thought by Allaah(swt) Allaah(swt) had already known of everything we will do or even think long before anything was created.
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Old 11-25-2015, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
From what I have found through debates with scholars and reading various Tafsir(commentaries) the concept is we are a physical manifestation of a thought by Allaah(swt) Allaah(swt) had already known of everything we will do or even think long before anything was created.
That is quite a common thinking by many but it does not hold water and that is kindergarten thinking.


In this case you [and human beings of the same] are doing the thinking on behalf of Allah based on your fallible position. God would not be thinking you way you are existing, thinking and doing.


There is a difference between thinking and doing [actual creating].
One can think of a car, but a car cannot appear in reality just merely by thought.
To create a car, one has to have a hand in every aspects of its creation.
So it is not logical even for God to 'think' and a car will merely appear.
Per your point above, logically God will have to think then follow by the actual creation the object.


So it is not that Allah thought, then immediately Adam is created.
The Quran may say 'BE' and there it is, but in reality there is still a process [albeit very fast] to it.
God has to create the clay, create the form of Allah, put his breath into it and create Adam out of a process.
So even with "BE!" there is an implied thinking [thought] and doing [creating].
It is because God is so powerful and fast that one conflate and did not consider the detail processes, i.e. thinking then follow by doing.


Thus in the process of doing, God [as say energy] has to be there [present but not like human] in the process all the way. If God can hear what is in Adam's breast, God has to be there to 'hear' it.
Therefore God has to be omnipresent to be omniscient and creating whatever.


Why you are making your claims about God is you and others are always projecting the reality of God from an anthropomorphic [human like] point of view just a person [human] is external to another person [human].
God is absolutely limitless thus omnipresent and has no boundaries [body, skin] like a human.
A God that is not omnipresent is not absolutely limitless, thus has boundaries, limited and is a cheapo God.


To me God is an impossibility, but theists who must believe in a God, at least should believe in a God that is of the supreme most with the highest possible potential, i.e. an ontological God which is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent than which no great can be conceived.


If you do not rely on an ontological [with omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent properties] you will not be able to defend a kindergarten kid who claim his God is ontologically greater than Allah because Allah is limited physical in its existence.
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Old 11-26-2015, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is quite a common thinking by many but it does not hold water and that is kindergarten thinking.


In this case you [and human beings of the same] are doing the thinking on behalf of Allah based on your fallible position. God would not be thinking you way you are existing, thinking and doing.


There is a difference between thinking and doing [actual creating].
One can think of a car, but a car cannot appear in reality just merely by thought.
To create a car, one has to have a hand in every aspects of its creation.
So it is not logical even for God to 'think' and a car will merely appear.
Per your point above, logically God will have to think then follow by the actual creation the object.


So it is not that Allah thought, then immediately Adam is created.
The Quran may say 'BE' and there it is, but in reality there is still a process [albeit very fast] to it.
God has to create the clay, create the form of Allah, put his breath into it and create Adam out of a process.
So even with "BE!" there is an implied thinking [thought] and doing [creating].
It is because God is so powerful and fast that one conflate and did not consider the detail processes, i.e. thinking then follow by doing.


Thus in the process of doing, God [as say energy] has to be there [present but not like human] in the process all the way. If God can hear what is in Adam's breast, God has to be there to 'hear' it.
Therefore God has to be omnipresent to be omniscient and creating whatever.


Why you are making your claims about God is you and others are always projecting the reality of God from an anthropomorphic [human like] point of view just a person [human] is external to another person [human].
God is absolutely limitless thus omnipresent and has no boundaries [body, skin] like a human.
A God that is not omnipresent is not absolutely limitless, thus has boundaries, limited and is a cheapo God.


To me God is an impossibility, but theists who must believe in a God, at least should believe in a God that is of the supreme most with the highest possible potential, i.e. an ontological God which is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent than which no great can be conceived.


If you do not rely on an ontological [with omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent properties] you will not be able to defend a kindergarten kid who claim his God is ontologically greater than Allah because Allah is limited physical in its existence.

Interesting thought you bring up

Quote:
To me God is an impossibility, but theists who must believe in a God, at least should believe in a God that is of the supreme most with the highest possible potential, i.e. an ontological God which is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent than which no great can be conceived.
An atheist who does not believe in God(swt) defining the God(swt) a theist must believe in..


Sorry, My concept of God(swt) does not agree with yours.

While I believe God(swt) has the ability to be omnipresent, he is not, because there is no need for him to be. God(swt) is not limited to what we want him to be, nor is he powerless to not be where there is no need for him to be. We can "feel" the presence of him in all things he has created. I only believe that which I my self have verified, I have not verified God(swt) is omnipresent.
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Old 11-26-2015, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Interesting thought you bring up.
An atheist who does not believe in God(swt) defining the God(swt) a theist must believe in..
I have been discussing this issue for umpteen years from the philosophical perspective [philosophy is one of my forte] and dare said I have left almost no stones unturned on this subject.


In the challenge of theism from non-theists, the theists has been defending and shifting [evolving] their concept of God from this early concept of the primitive folk's god, man with white beard in the sky to the cosmological god, the designer god, and cornered to their best concept, i.e. the ontological God which seem very logical transcendentally with gaps to maneuver.
But ultimately and philosophically the ontological God is still an impossibility.


Quote:
Sorry, My concept of God(swt) does not agree with yours.

While I believe God(swt) has the ability to be omnipresent, he is not, because there is no need for him to be. God(swt) is not limited to what we want him to be, nor is he powerless to not be where there is no need for him to be. We can "feel" the presence of him in all things he has created. I only believe that which I my self have verified, I have not verified God(swt) is omnipresent.
It is not mine but the ontological concept is the best the theologians can come up with against the challenges and counters of the non-theists.


There is no such thing as a choice for god to be omnipresent. By default the supreme most God [ens realissimum] has to be omnipresent to leave no room for another God to be greater in expanse than your God.
Thus if your God is omnipresent, then there is no room for any kindergarten kid to challenge the size of your God.
Therefore you Must come in with the first claim that your God is omnipresent so that no other God can be present somewhere which could be greater than your God in terms of size and presence.


If you do not make the claim that your God is omnipresent then it is likely to be a cheapo god, i.e. the Christian God, Hindu God and other God who claimed omnipresence is thus greater than your Allah which suppose to be omnipotent but is limited by boundaries. [that is also a contradiction].


If you claim Allah of the Quran is not omnipresent then it is likely that Muhammad was the one who corrupted the original fact and reality of monotheism where the Abrahamic God has to be omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent.


Many Islamic scholars relied on the Hadiths [secondary -not reliable and not primary] to interpret Allah is not omnipresent. When it is interpreted from the Quran [the sole words of God] Allah has to be omnipresent.


So don't let your Allah rebuke and punish you on Judgment Day for making Allah inferior [limited in terms of space].
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Old 11-27-2015, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have been discussing this issue for umpteen years from the philosophical perspective [philosophy is one of my forte] and dare said I have left almost no stones unturned on this subject.


In the challenge of theism from non-theists, the theists has been defending and shifting [evolving] their concept of God from this early concept of the primitive folk's god, man with white beard in the sky to the cosmological god, the designer god, and cornered to their best concept, i.e. the ontological God which seem very logical transcendentally with gaps to maneuver.
But ultimately and philosophically the ontological God is still an impossibility.


It is not mine but the ontological concept is the best the theologians can come up with against the challenges and counters of the non-theists.


There is no such thing as a choice for god to be omnipresent. By default the supreme most God [ens realissimum] has to be omnipresent to leave no room for another God to be greater in expanse than your God.
Thus if your God is omnipresent, then there is no room for any kindergarten kid to challenge the size of your God.
Therefore you Must come in with the first claim that your God is omnipresent so that no other God can be present somewhere which could be greater than your God in terms of size and presence.


If you do not make the claim that your God is omnipresent then it is likely to be a cheapo god, i.e. the Christian God, Hindu God and other God who claimed omnipresence is thus greater than your Allah which suppose to be omnipotent but is limited by boundaries. [that is also a contradiction].


If you claim Allah of the Quran is not omnipresent then it is likely that Muhammad was the one who corrupted the original fact and reality of monotheism where the Abrahamic God has to be omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent.


Many Islamic scholars relied on the Hadiths [secondary -not reliable and not primary] to interpret Allah is not omnipresent. When it is interpreted from the Quran [the sole words of God] Allah has to be omnipresent.


So don't let your Allah rebuke and punish you on Judgment Day for making Allah inferior [limited in terms of space].
I personally was quite surprised that many scholars agreed with my belief that God(swt) was not omnipresent. That was a conclusion I arived at near the end of my Christian era. It was also one reason I became an Atheist at that time.

It appeared to me it was idiotic to think God(swt) to be everywhere when he already knows what will happen before it happens. I am not saying God(swt) can not choose to be everywhere, I am saying there is no need for him to be. Also he can observe everything without needing to be there. Just as an astronomer can calculate the trajectory of the moons of Jupiter without being on Jupiter.

If us humans can explore as much as 1 square inch of the surface of Mars without being on Mars not reason to doubt God(swt) can explore every atom of the universe without being physically in it. Iust as we have Mars rovers exploring Mars with no need for a human to be on mars, what prevents God(swt) from having a method of keeping close contact with humans without need to be physically among us?
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Old 11-27-2015, 08:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

It appeared to me it was idiotic to think God(swt) to be everywhere when he already knows what will happen before it happens
This statement makes me wonder how people who profess to believe in such a god could not despise that god. This supernatural being has control of everything and knows everything and watches as his choices cause billions to suffer horrific pain and torture, not only at his hands after death, but while they live on his creation. Cancer, tsunamis, viruses, earthquakes, rape, AIDS, holocausts, famine, terrorism, the Dark Ages, wars....all created by, controlled by and known by god. And does he give better treatment to those who love and believe in him? Nope, it's usually worse for them.
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Old 11-27-2015, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
This statement makes me wonder how people who profess to believe in such a god could not despise that god. This supernatural being has control of everything and knows everything and watches as his choices cause billions to suffer horrific pain and torture, not only at his hands after death, but while they live on his creation. Cancer, tsunamis, viruses, earthquakes, rape, AIDS, holocausts, famine, terrorism, the Dark Ages, wars....all created by, controlled by and known by god. And does he give better treatment to those who love and believe in him? Nope, it's usually worse for them.
While Allaah(does know all things that will happen it is still because of our own free will.

Unlike Christians we do not Believe God(swt) exists to benifit us. We are very much at the mercy of natural physics and the actions of humans.

Life is a trial in which we have to take full responsibility for our choices. We all are subject to uncontrollable events. A Muslim has no magical exemption from the events of natural events. We all(Atheists, Theists, Agnostics and even non-humans) face the same whims of life.

A Muslim loves Allaah(swt) not because of what he does for us, but because we have the Ability to love him. Our love for Allaah(swt) does not benefit Allaah(swt) it benefits us.
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