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Old 11-25-2015, 09:42 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,595,051 times
Reputation: 461

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loyal_Heart View Post
Did you read the Quran and search the real meaning behind the verses you're claiming to incite violence and hate ? or you're just reposting what others say in other threads about it ? because if this is the case then i invite you to search well before making such statements. If Quran were to incite violence you'd find every single muslim fighting every single non-muslim out there , which i find highly illogical.I'm not defending the terrorists , but i know exactly why people are joining them and the media is doing a great job blaming muslims for every attack and bombarding that's happening .
To cut the matter short, I can vouch for Juju's knowledge [reasonable and credible based on postings] of the Quran and Hadiths, so there is no need to doubt Juju on this issue.


Quote:
If Quran were to incite violence you'd find every single muslim fighting every single non-muslim out there , which i find highly illogical.
Yours may have some degree of logic to it, but it is very unsound because you do not think more widely.


Note my thesis [repeated many time elsewhere]
1. Nature wise, 20% of humans including Muslims are inherently evil prone.
2. More than 55% of the 6,236 of the Quran verses has evil laden elements [of various degrees], thererfore Islam-in-part is inherently evil.
3. The Quran is the core and central authority of Islam.

4. The combination of 1-3 inspire SOME in 1 to commit terrible evils and violence.
5. Islam is partly to be blamed for all the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims.
From the above you will note, it is human nature why the other 80% are not likely to commit evils and violence [many provide financial and implicit moral support] because they apply their human values and compromise the ordinations of the Quran.


There is a pool of 20% of potential evil prone Muslims, i.e. that is a frightening quantum of 300 million. This total is approximated, rough and crude but it is very critical because it only took 18++ to do a 911 and even lone wolves can create terrible havoc to humanity. So even if we drop the % to 1% that is still and dangerous total. The result of such evils is glaringly evident from the news we hear every day of Islamic-inspired evils and violence.


Personally I do NOT wholly blame ALL the Muslims themselves because they are merely acting out of their inherently nature and inspired by an external source of beliefs.
What is of concern is the very existence of Islam as a set of beliefs [claimed to be a way of life, i.e. an ideology that is almost like fascism.] that catalyze and inspire the evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence.


Thus the ultimate root cause we have to deal with is Islam as claimed to be a way of life and inspiring naturally evil prone human beings to commit violence.


Without Islam there will be no more Islamic inspired violence. What remained with be a pool of 20% humans who are naturally evil prone. Humanity will have to deal with them from a secular basis which is the norm of being human.

Last edited by Continuum; 11-25-2015 at 10:25 PM.. Reason: 'NOT'
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Old 11-25-2015, 10:17 PM
 
Location: In my head where everything is perfect
40 posts, read 20,387 times
Reputation: 36
Since you are the only reasonable critic here, I believe you deserve a decent reply.

Let's first start by the Ma malakat aymanykum, wrongly translated as "right hand" posession has nothing to do with slavery or

fornication, as i'll prove using the Quran.

-Prisoners of war = Asraa or asira (plural) 8:67,76:8
-Slave = Abdan (Mamluka) 16:75,24:32,2:221, imaakum 24:32 or ammah (singular) 2:221, abid to mean slave(s) of Allah
-YOUR OATHS = Aymanikum 2:224,225,5:89,16:92,94,66:2 THEIR OATHS = Aymanihim 5:108,6:109,16:38,24:53,35:42
-right hand = Maimanah 56:8,90:18 or Yamin 17:71,20:17,56:27,38:90-91,74:39

the Quran NEVER EVER uses the word AYMANIKUM to refer to the RIGHT HANDS but always and exclusively for YOUR OATHS.


Ma Malakat aymanikum (lit. "whom your oaths posess" wrongly translated as right hand possession) is a phrase used for the poor humans whom an oath has been pledged to be taken care of. They are not necessarly prisonners of wars but can be if one wishes to take under his special care (under oath) a war prisonner, ie raising his/her status.
In 33:50, the prophet is told that among the categories of women lawful for marriage are Ma Malakat yaminuka (singular) FROM AMONG the prisonners of wars, which proves they are a seperate group from war prisonners.

Ma Malakat aymanikum has nothing to do with slavery or unlawful sex as i showed above, now this verse you brought expands on the categories of women unlawful for marriage such as mothers, daughters, sisters etc as well as all married women and the Quran makes an exception that already married Ma Malakat aymanikum are lawful for marriage.

This exception comes under very special circumstances explained through 60:10, where we are told that if a believing married woman deserts her unbelieving husband and comes to seek protection and shelter in a Muslim household, she must not be turned back to her previous home and a Muslim man in this household may take her under his wing as Ma Malakat aymanikum, taking an oath to provide for her. If he wishes to marry her later (with hers and her family's consent) he must pay back the dowry to her initial husband, hence annuling the previous marriage.


-Also, how many verses in the Quran talk about endless torture for disbelievers?

As far as i know , all religion have versions of Heaven and Hell where disblievers of that specific religion will be punished:

In later Judaism ; hell is a place of punishment for unbelievers.
Hades for the Greek represents the place of eternal punishment for evildoers, where the sinners are put on horrifying display.
Christian hell seems at one level to be a combination of the Jewish idea of Gehinnom, where there is eternal burning, and Hades, where there is eternal punishment. In fact, the Greek word for hell in the New Testament is often hades, and Jesus used the word Gehenna (a version of Gehinnom) to indicate the place for sinners where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die.So why acuse Islam of being the only religion that says disblievers will be punished ?

So let's suppose that you mean punishment here on earth ,here is the following example of why disblievers (Jews , Christians ) were protected by muslims and were never forced to convert to Islam.Given consent by the constitution, the Jews had the complete freedom to practice their religion. The Jews in Medina at the time of the Prophet had their own school of learning, named Bait-ul-Midras, where they would recite the Torah, worship and educate themselves.

The Prophet emphasized in many letters to his emissaries that religious institutions should not be harmed. Here in a letter addressed to his emissary to the religious leaders of Saint Catherine in Mount Sinai who has sought the protection of the Muslims:

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by God! I hold out againstanything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are declared to be protected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

As one can see, this Charter consisted of several clauses covering all important aspects of human rights, including such topics as the protection of minorities living under Islamic rule, freedom of worship and movement, freedom to appoint their own judges and to own and maintain their property, exemption from military service, and the right to protection in war.
On another occasion, the Prophet received a delegation of sixty Christians from the region of Najran, then a part of Yemen, at his mosque. When the time for their prayer came, they faced the direction of east and prayed. The Prophet ordered that they be left in their state and not harmed.



As for Aisha There is plenty of evidence that suggests Aisha was at least 16 when she married.So please refrain from spreading these misunderstandings.For starters aishas age is unconfirmed, be it she was 9 to 16 fact is her age is undertermined, to compare a past way or life to todays way of life is beyond retarded. I don't know where you read about raping a child or heard of it, but what i know for sure is that the site /person most certainly is a hate promoter, so their characterizations are way off the mark and with an eye of making the case for their agenda. If you read the hadith in the context of the situation at the time, a different picture emerges.
In regards to the age of Aisha, the idea that people married young in the past because they died off so quickly is a notion that the Neil Postman's of the world have raised serious contentions with. Biologically and neurologically speaking, people are adults at the onset of puberty. There was of course guidance offered by the elders, but by the time a person was 11 or 12, they were ready to be functional contributors to society. Adolescence was an invention of modern man that did little more than justify continued compulsory schooling and the wealth such a thing provides, along with extending childhood an additional 8 years so that parents would be pressured to spend their wealth on trivial things on behalf of trivial minded people. The age of 18 is completely arbitrary. If a take a child, remove them from the controlled and sheltered environment that school forces upon them by depriving people from real world life experience during the most productive hours of the day, they turn out like the Thomas Jeffersons of the world, who wrote much of his praised political prose at the age of 14 at a level of sophistication that few besides English professors and lawyers can match in our time. Aisha was married proper (according to Western contexts) at the age of 9 (according to most historians) and by the time she was 16, she helped lead an entire army and was a by all accounts, one of the most important political and religious figures of her
time. Additionally, Aisha was engaged to be married to another man when the Prophet made his offer to Abu Bakr. That was why he wasn't "on board at first", not because of the age difference. The Prophet's opponents accused him of everything from sorcery to incest for marrying the ex-wife of his adopted son. Yet for over a thousand years, not a single person saw a moral objection in his marriage to Aisha.

Regarding menses , in the environment that the Prophet lived, menstruating women were considered polluted so the fact
that the Prophet did things publicly to demonstrate the baselessness of such an idea, you would think such progressive people would appreciate. The Prophet had sex. I know such a concept is problematic to people who embrace a religion that believes sex is filthy and women are the root of all evil in the world, but the rest of humanity does not have such an attitude. For the first 40 years of his life, the Prophet was completely monogamous.Regarding his multiple-wives, the fact that Christians have a problem with polygamy is a little odd, given the fact that it was practiced by almost all of the Old Testament Prophets. As to why the Prophet had more than four wives when everyone else was forbidden, it was an exception made exclusively for him; like a few other things, such as he and his family not being supported by means of zakat, even if they fit the criterion to be its recipients. After Asha, every woman the Prophet married was older than he. The only exception were the few women that became apart of his household after war and contrary to the claim, he chose women because of their tribal affiliations, not because of their age of beauty. Quite a few of his marriages immediately ended blood feuds that had been waged for decades. And after war, in pre-modern, pre-Geneva convention world, there were only three things that we done with prisoners:
1) they were taken humanely as apart of one's household,
2) they were ransomed to their surviving families for further wealth or
3) they were killed.

And regarding the hadiths about sucking and kissing genitals parts.I have to say that the problem of hadiths is among the most difficult of problems the Muslims live with today especially at the present time; because the "Wahhabi Universities" graduate doctors who specialize in the field of hadiths. You find them memorizing the hadiths that concord with their schools and beliefs.Most of these hadiths are [the product] of the fabrications by the Umayyads, their predecessors, whose aims were also to extinguish the light of the message [of Islam] and to portray the Prophet as a feeble-minded clown not knowing what he says, not aware of his contradictory traditions, and deeds which [even] a madman would laugh at.Despite the efforts of researchers and ahl al-sunna scholars to cleanse and sift the traditions, there are still, most unfortunately,
in the authentic and reliable books, many [strange] things. Similarly, the Shi'a books are not safe from interpolations and
fabrications.

In addition ,not all Islamic books are authentic. Imam Bukhari, considered to be the most reliable collector, admitted that of the 300,000 hadith he collected, he considered only 100,000 might be true. He then narrowed this number down to 7,275, many of which are repetitions so that the total number is in fact near 3,000.

In sum, we are talking about a man who did not shy away from his wives when nature took its course and showed them affection, despite his being engaged in devotion. And yes, he has sex with them, washed off the bodily fluid and went to the mosque. Such things are only x-rated to immature people with childish minds. Married people have sex, adult women menstruate and religion exists to offer practical guidance.

As for Obama praising Islam , why should we care if he does praise Islam or not? Obama is just a human being ,he performs his duties and one day another president will take his place and so on , presidents will come and go and they all , i believe , are part of some grand plan BREAKING: Declassified Docs Show That Obama Admin Created ISIS In 2012 To Use As A 'Tool' ⋆ US Herald

I can't speak for those who raped women in Sweden just because they're muslims because crime is a human thing , also the highest crime levels of rape are found in many developped countries and are committed by non-muslims as well.

To do this the shortest way, start reading unbiased sources about Islam, and set your pre-assumption, anti-Islamic ideas aside. Don't waste your time asking low key questions to hunt for anything fishy, because there isn't. Get to the main principles of Islam, and when fairly done, you'll have plenty of time to dig into the fine little details.

"O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship,Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine" Qur'an 109:1-6

Of course you are free , as is everyone else reading this ,to choose whether to believe or doubt what i wrote , you are free to ask more questions and they will all be answered.
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Old 11-25-2015, 10:45 PM
 
Location: In my head where everything is perfect
40 posts, read 20,387 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To cut the matter short, I can vouch for Juju's knowledge [reasonable and credible based on postings] of the Quran and Hadiths, so there is no need to doubt Juju on this issue.


Yours may have some degree of logic to it, but it is very unsound because you do not think more widely.


Note my thesis [repeated many time elsewhere]
1. Nature wise, 20% of humans including Muslims are inherently evil prone.
2. More than 55% of the 6,236 of the Quran verses has evil laden elements [of various degrees], thererfore Islam-in-part is inherently evil.
3. The Quran is the core and central authority of Islam.

4. The combination of 1-3 inspire SOME in 1 to commit terrible evils and violence.
5. Islam is partly to be blamed for all the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims.
From the above you will note, it is human nature why the other 80% are not likely to commit evils and violence [many provide financial and implicit moral support] because they apply their human values and compromise the ordinations of the Quran.


There is a pool of 20% of potential evil prone Muslims, i.e. that is a frightening quantum of 300 million. This total is approximated, rough and crude but it is very critical because it only took 18++ to do a 911 and even lone wolves can create terrible havoc to humanity. So even if we drop the % to 1% that is still and dangerous total. The result of such evils is glaringly evident from the news we hear every day of Islamic-inspired evils and violence.


Personally I do wholly blame ALL the Muslims themselves because they are merely acting out of their inherently nature and inspired by an external source of beliefs.
What is of concern is the very existence of Islam as a set of beliefs [claimed to be a way of life, i.e. an ideology that is almost like fascism.] that catalyze and inspire the evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence.


Thus the ultimate root cause we have to deal with is Islam as claimed to be a way of life and inspiring naturally evil prone human beings to commit violence.


Without Islam there will be no more Islamic inspired violence. What remained with be a pool of 20% humans who are naturally evil prone. Humanity will have to deal with them from a secular basis which is the norm of being human.
I'm not going to repost the same thing twice , The Verses you think promote violence are not meant for that , again i invite you to read my previous post.

Can't you see that you are being illogical by saying that only muslims are evil prone humans ? i can give you endless links about America alone and how every US citizen is threatened , and i have to tell you that a US citizen is safer in muslim country except the ones in War than he/she is in America , i've known Americans who confirmed this ro me and are living peacefully in these countries.
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Old 11-25-2015, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,595,051 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loyal_Heart View Post
I'm not going to repost the same thing twice , The Verses you think promote violence are not meant for that , again i invite you to read my previous post.

Can't you see that you are being illogical by saying that only muslims are evil prone humans ? i can give you endless links about America alone and how every US citizen is threatened , and i have to tell you that a US citizen is safer in muslim country except the ones in War than he/she is in America , i've known Americans who confirmed this ro me and are living peacefully in these countries.
You seem to have a comprehension problem or are prone to selective reading.
Note my point;

1. Nature wise, 20% of humans including Muslims are inherently evil prone.
You cannot get my point?
'20% of humans' meant 'of all human' which include Muslims.


To be more precise;
1. DNA wise, all human beings [including Muslims] are 96-98% beasts. This is the basis of 'satan' within all humans.
2. 80% of humans has good impulse controls over their inherent beastly potential within while 20% has lesser controls of their beastly impulses.


It is your views [perhaps you are more humane] but to the 20% evil prone Muslims they [many] are inspired by the evil laden verses [of various degrees]. The reality of the manifested evils and violence by evil prone Muslims are glaringly evident in the daily news.
Note this OP,
Understanding the Jihadist
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Old 11-26-2015, 05:11 AM
 
Location: In my head where everything is perfect
40 posts, read 20,387 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You seem to have a comprehension problem or are prone to selective reading.
Note my point;

1. Nature wise, 20% of humans including Muslims are inherently evil prone.
You cannot get my point?
'20% of humans' meant 'of all human' which include Muslims.


To be more precise;
1. DNA wise, all human beings [including Muslims] are 96-98% beasts. This is the basis of 'satan' within all humans.
2. 80% of humans has good impulse controls over their inherent beastly potential within while 20% has lesser controls of their beastly impulses.


It is your views [perhaps you are more humane] but to the 20% evil prone Muslims they [many] are inspired by the evil laden verses [of various degrees]. The reality of the manifested evils and violence by evil prone Muslims are glaringly evident in the daily news.
Note this OP,
Understanding the Jihadist
I must remind you that you are hijacking this thread , i believe there are enough threads here you can explain this to members who share your point of view , you can discuss this at the Current Event section .

If you want to understand what is the real meaning of Jihad , you must refer to reliable Islamic books :

In the linguistic sense, the Arabic word "jihad" means struggling or striving and applies to any effort exerted by anyone. In this sense, a student struggles and strives to get an education and pass course work; an employee strives to fulfill his/her job and maintain good relations with his/her employer; a politician strives to maintain or increase his [1] popularity with his constituents and so on. The term strive or struggle may be used for/by Muslims as well as non-Muslims.

In the West, "jihad" is generally translated as "holy war," a usage the media has popularized. According to Islamic teachings, it is UNHOLY to instigate or start war; however, some wars are inevitable and justifiable. If we translate the words "holy war" back into Arabic, we find "Harbun Muqaddasatu," or for "the holy war," "Al-Harbu Al-Muqaddasatu." WE CHALLENGE any researcher or scholar to find the meaning of "jihad" as holy war in the Quran or authentic Hadith collections or in early Islamic literature. Unfortunately, some Muslim writers and translators of the Quran, the Hadith and other Islamic literature translate the term "jihad" as "holy war," due to the influence of centuries-old Western propaganda. This could be a reflection of the Christian use of the term "Holy War" to refer to the Crusades of a thousand years ago. However, the Arabic words for "war" are "Harb" or "Qital," which are found in the Quran and Hadith.


About Jihad - What is Jihad? Islamic Holy War? Muslims Killing Jews & Christians?
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Old 11-26-2015, 07:27 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 756,458 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loyal_Heart View Post
Since you are the only reasonable critic here, I believe you deserve a decent reply.

Let's first start by the Ma malakat aymanykum, wrongly translated as "right hand" posession has nothing to do with slavery or

fornication, as i'll prove using the Quran.

-Prisoners of war = Asraa or asira (plural) 8:67,76:8
-Slave = Abdan (Mamluka) 16:75,24:32,2:221, imaakum 24:32 or ammah (singular) 2:221, abid to mean slave(s) of Allah
-YOUR OATHS = Aymanikum 2:224,225,5:89,16:92,94,66:2 THEIR OATHS = Aymanihim 5:108,6:109,16:38,24:53,35:42
-right hand = Maimanah 56:8,90:18 or Yamin 17:71,20:17,56:27,38:90-91,74:39

the Quran NEVER EVER uses the word AYMANIKUM to refer to the RIGHT HANDS but always and exclusively for YOUR OATHS.


Ma Malakat aymanikum (lit. "whom your oaths posess" wrongly translated as right hand possession) is a phrase used for the poor humans whom an oath has been pledged to be taken care of. They are not necessarly prisonners of wars but can be if one wishes to take under his special care (under oath) a war prisonner, ie raising his/her status.
In 33:50, the prophet is told that among the categories of women lawful for marriage are Ma Malakat yaminuka (singular) FROM AMONG the prisonners of wars, which proves they are a seperate group from war prisonners.

Ma Malakat aymanikum has nothing to do with slavery or unlawful sex as i showed above, now this verse you brought expands on the categories of women unlawful for marriage such as mothers, daughters, sisters etc as well as all married women and the Quran makes an exception that already married Ma Malakat aymanikum are lawful for marriage.

This exception comes under very special circumstances explained through 60:10, where we are told that if a believing married woman deserts her unbelieving husband and comes to seek protection and shelter in a Muslim household, she must not be turned back to her previous home and a Muslim man in this household may take her under his wing as Ma Malakat aymanikum, taking an oath to provide for her. If he wishes to marry her later (with hers and her family's consent) he must pay back the dowry to her initial husband, hence annuling the previous marriage.

The issue of the right hand.

There are several verses that refer to the right hand in the Quran and there can be no other meaning. Translators of the Quran agree that someone owned by the right hand is a slave or captive. In fact, I have never heard any Muslim dispute this!

From the Noble Quran website, here are different translators whom I think know more than you do:

Pickthall Quran 4:3
And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.

Muhsin Khan Quran 4:24
Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek (them in marriage) with Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) from your property, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed; but if after a Mahr is prescribed, you agree mutually (to give more), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Sahih International Quran 4:25
And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls.

Muhsin Khan Quran 4:25
And whoever of you have not the means wherewith to wed free, believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess,

Muhsin Khan Quran 16:71
And Allah has preferred some of you above others in wealth and properties. Then, those who are preferred will by no means hand over their wealth and properties to those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, so that they may be equal with them in respect thereof. Do they then deny the Favour of Allah?
Pickthall
And Allah hath favoured some of you above others in provision. Now those who are more favoured will by no means hand over their provision to those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, so that they may be equal with them in respect thereof. Is it then the grace of Allah that they deny?

This is a sample, there is more. I do not want to spend too much time. Look it up yourself.

What you have done is copied and pasted from an Islamic forum and you should give credit when you repost someone else's material:

Who are women whom your right hand possess

I'm going to suggest that you read through that entire discussion.

And consider this:

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do coitus interruptus. A soul that which Allah has destined to exist will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

"Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham/Hisham 693)

“…and then we attacked from all sides and reached their watering-place where a battle was fought. Some of the enemies were killed and some were taken prisoners. I saw a group of persons that consisted of women and children [escaping in the distance]. I was afraid lest they should reach the mountain before me, so I shot an arrow between them and the mountain. When they saw the arrow, they stopped. So I brought them, driving them along” (Sahih Muslim 4345)
These women are trying to escape. These aren't women trying to seek refuge with Muslims who slaughtered their husbands, sons and fathers. They are trying to avoid capture by the Muslims.

I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.” (Sahih Muslim 4345)

The apostle gave Ali a girl called Rayta; and he gave Uthman a girl called Zaynab; and he gave Umar a girl whom Umar gave to his son Abdullah. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 878)

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you except those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)
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Old 11-26-2015, 07:48 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 756,458 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loyal_Heart View Post

-Also, how many verses in the Quran talk about endless torture for disbelievers?

As far as i know , all religion have versions of Heaven and Hell where disblievers of that specific religion will be punished:

In later Judaism ; hell is a place of punishment for unbelievers.
Hades for the Greek represents the place of eternal punishment for evildoers, where the sinners are put on horrifying display.
Christian hell seems at one level to be a combination of the Jewish idea of Gehinnom, where there is eternal burning, and Hades, where there is eternal punishment. In fact, the Greek word for hell in the New Testament is often hades, and Jesus used the word Gehenna (a version of Gehinnom) to indicate the place for sinners where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die.So why acuse Islam of being the only religion that says disblievers will be punished ?

So let's suppose that you mean punishment here on earth ,here is the following example of why disblievers (Jews , Christians ) were protected by muslims and were never forced to convert to Islam.Given consent by the constitution, the Jews had the complete freedom to practice their religion. The Jews in Medina at the time of the Prophet had their own school of learning, named Bait-ul-Midras, where they would recite the Torah, worship and educate themselves.

The Prophet emphasized in many letters to his emissaries that religious institutions should not be harmed. Here in a letter addressed to his emissary to the religious leaders of Saint Catherine in Mount Sinai who has sought the protection of the Muslims:

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by God! I hold out againstanything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are declared to be protected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

As one can see, this Charter consisted of several clauses covering all important aspects of human rights, including such topics as the protection of minorities living under Islamic rule, freedom of worship and movement, freedom to appoint their own judges and to own and maintain their property, exemption from military service, and the right to protection in war.
On another occasion, the Prophet received a delegation of sixty Christians from the region of Najran, then a part of Yemen, at his mosque. When the time for their prayer came, they faced the direction of east and prayed. The Prophet ordered that they be left in their state and not harmed.
Like Woodrow, you refuse to answer this question:
Also, how many verses in the Quran talk about endless torture for disbelievers?

I never said that other religions do not call for punishment. But there are some serious differences. Let me say that we are discussing Islam here. And to try to excuse evil by pointing to other evil does not work. And it's a logical fallacy:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

So let's address Islam.

In the Quran allah threatens disbelievers with endless torture. These threats often have nothing to do with morality but are targeted towards disbelievers. If they were related to morality, Muhammed would be first in line to burn in hell for eternity. He did every evil I can think up!

Mu initial question would be....how in the world could a god that created the universe (how amazing would that be!!!) think for one second that these kinds of horrific threats of endless torture could foster belief? If I pointed a gun to your head and demanded that you believe in Scientology or I will slaughter you, could you suddenly believe in Scientology? Come on!

Islam posits that some supernatural being capable of creating the entire universe wrote a book full of such garbage that one would think that someone like, let's say, Muhammed wrote it! Why would a creator of the universe be interested in Muhammed's sex life, women's menses, endless torture, etc?

From my brief research, it seems 'Allah' created hell. And I can say that only the mind of a complete psychopath could create such a place. (Hint: Muhammed)

"They will long to leave the Fire, but never will they leave there from; and theirs will be a lasting torment." (Quran 5:37)

"…And they will never leave of the Fire." (Quran 2:167)

"Surely, those who disbelieve and did wrong; God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way except the way of Hell, to dwell therein forever." (Quran 4:168-169)

"Surely, God has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire wherein they will abide for ever." (Quran 33:64)

"And whosoever disobeys God and His Messenger, then surely, for him is the fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever." (Quran 72:23)

Reminds me of ISIS burning people alive. 'Allah' must be so proud of ISIS!

So let's take a look at what Allah does (last 30 seconds of the video):

*GRAPHIC” New VIDEO: Islamic State BURNS 4 CAPTIVES ALIVE #ISIS | Pamela Geller (Warning: this is horrible and I could not watch it!)

Except that Allah does this to people FOREVER!!!!!! You don't die!

And it doesn't stop there! Just burning people alive isn't enough.

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

This is how a monster thinks. It sickens me. ALL true Muslims think that non-believers deserve this. I do not think that Charles Manson deserves this! Is this really what Islam has created? Well over a BILLION people who are OK with this being done to the rest of mankind?

In my case, I can say that the whole idea of Islam is complete and evil nonsense. I would be betraying all my moral values (rationality, honesty, self-esteem, productivity, justice, integrity, independence of mind, courage, individual rights) to submit to Islam. And I would have to force myself to believe in utter nonsense, which I can't do any more than all Muslims can start believing in Scientology and the space aliens and thetans. So, because I have integrity to my moral values and cannot believe in what is total evil nonsense, Allah is going to do torture beyond imagination to me.

How sick is that?

I'll put my morality up against that of Muhammed any day.

If I did believe in allah, I would hate him.
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Old 11-26-2015, 08:05 AM
 
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As for Aisha There is plenty of evidence that suggests Aisha was at least 16 when she married.So please refrain from spreading these misunderstandings.For starters aishas age is unconfirmed, be it she was 9 to 16 fact is her age is undertermined, to compare a past way or life to todays way of life is beyond retarded. I don't know where you read about raping a child or heard of it, but what i know for sure is that the site /person most certainly is a hate promoter, so their characterizations are way off the mark and with an eye of making the case for their agenda. If you read the hadith in the context of the situation at the time, a different picture emerges.
In regards to the age of Aisha, the idea that people married young in the past because they died off so quickly is a notion that the Neil Postman's of the world have raised serious contentions with. Biologically and neurologically speaking, people are adults at the onset of puberty. There was of course guidance offered by the elders, but by the time a person was 11 or 12, they were ready to be functional contributors to society. Adolescence was an invention of modern man that did little more than justify continued compulsory schooling and the wealth such a thing provides, along with extending childhood an additional 8 years so that parents would be pressured to spend their wealth on trivial things on behalf of trivial minded people. The age of 18 is completely arbitrary. If a take a child, remove them from the controlled and sheltered environment that school forces upon them by depriving people from real world life experience during the most productive hours of the day, they turn out like the Thomas Jeffersons of the world, who wrote much of his praised political prose at the age of 14 at a level of sophistication that few besides English professors and lawyers can match in our time. Aisha was married proper (according to Western contexts) at the age of 9 (according to most historians) and by the time she was 16, she helped lead an entire army and was a by all accounts, one of the most important political and religious figures of her
time. Additionally, Aisha was engaged to be married to another man when the Prophet made his offer to Abu Bakr. That was why he wasn't "on board at first", not because of the age difference. The Prophet's opponents accused him of everything from sorcery to incest for marrying the ex-wife of his adopted son. Yet for over a thousand years, not a single person saw a moral objection in his marriage to Aisha.
OK, here is an easy test for you to do. Send a man into a class of 4th grade girls. Have him start having sex with them. See if they like it. Aisha was a little 4th grader who played with dolls and played on a swing with her girlfriends. No way was a 9 year old child ready for sex with a 53 year old man. What kind of 53 year old man wants to have sex with a 9 year old child???

And Muhammed was supposedly a prophet and setting the perfect example!!

Yes, Aisha was engaged...maybe she would be married when she was 20.

You say " to compare a past way or life to todays way of life is beyond retarded. "

I say this is one reason all Muslims are immoral. I know rape of a child is evil. I don't care who does it, Jesus, Muhammed, Michael Jackson, Obama....if a man rapes a child, that man is evil. Period. It does not matter when he did it or who he is. Rape of a child is evil. A 9 year old child cannot give informed consent. I have asked over 3,000 Muslims if they think Muhammed was wrong to have sex with a 9 year old child. NOT ONE could say yes. Same answer when I asked about Muhammed owning slaves, letting his men mass rape women, etc. Muhammed, an evil man, is beyond moral judgement by ALL Muslims.

BTW, puberty is a PROCESS. It's not like the start of menses suddenly makes a girl aware of sex and it's implications. We're not barnyard animals. How come 53 year old women aren't having sex with little boys as soon as they can get an erection? Muhammed was a pervert. He even made little children suck on his tongue!

As for the rest of the excuses Muslims give for pedophilia, I've heard them all before, over and over.

Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old child according to MANY Islamic sources:

SAHIH AL-BUKHARI

Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)

Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)


Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88)

SAHIH MUSLIM

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3309; see also 3310)

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

SUNAN ABU DAWUD

Aisha said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old.(Sunan Abu Dawud, Number 2116)

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him),and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4915)

SUNAN NASA‘I

… When Hadrat Aisha passed nine years of marriage life, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fell in mortal sickness… ‘A’isha was eighteen years of age at the time when the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away and she remained a widow for forty-eight years till she died at the age of sixty-seven. She saw the rules of four Caliphs in her lifetime. She died on Ramadan 58 A.H. during the Caliphate of Hadrat Amir Mu‘awiya… (Sunan Nasa'i: English translation with Arabic Text, compiled by Imam Abu Abd-ur-Rahman Ahmad Nasa'i, rendered into English by Muhammad Iqbal Siddiqui [Kazi Publication, 121-Zulqarnain Chambers, Gampat Road, Lahore, Pakistan; first edition, 1994], Volume 1, p. 108)

SUNAN IBN-I-MAJAH

1876. ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) is reported to have said: Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) contracted marriage with me while I was (yet) a six years [sic] old girl. Then we arrived at Medina and stayed with Banu Harith b. Khazraj. I fell victim to fever; then my hair (of the head fell off (and became scattered). Then they became plenty and hanged down upto [sic] the earlobes. My mother ‘Umm Ruman came to me while I was (playing) in a swing alongwith [sic] my play-mates. She (the mother) called me loudly. I went to her and I did not know what he [sic] wanted. She seized my hand and stopped me at the door of the house and I was hearing [sic] violently until the agitation of my heart was over. Then she took some water and wiped it over my face and head. Then she admitted me to the house when some woman [sic] of Ansar were present in the house. They said, "You have entered with blessings and good fortune." Then she (the mother) entrusted me to them. So they embellished me and nothing frightened me but Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) (when he came there) in the morning and they (the women) entrusted me to him. On that day, I was a nine years [sic] old girl."

1877. Abdullah (Allah be pleased with him) is reported to have said, "The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) married ‘A’isha while she was a seven years [sic] old girl and took him [sic] to his house as a bride when she was nine years old and he parted with her (after his demise) when she was eighteen years old."

According to Al-Zawa‘id its isnad is sahih in accordance with the condition prescribed by Bukhari, but munqata because Abu ‘Ubaida did not hear from his father. Shu‘ba Abu Hatim and Ibn Hibban mentioned him amongst the authentic and reliable authorities. Tirmidhi in al-Jami’ and al-Mazzi in al-Atraf (has expressed the same opinion). Nasa‘i has transmitted this hadith in al-Sughra from the hadith ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her). (Sunan Ibn-I-Majah, Imam Abdullah Muhammad B. Yazid Ibn-I-Maja Al-Qazwini, English version by Muhammad Tufail Ansari [Kazi Publications, 121-Zulqarnain Chambers, Gampat Road, Lahore Pakistan, first edition, 1995], volume III, pp. 133-134)

IBN HISHAM

He married ‘A’isha in Mecca when she was a child of seven and lived with her in Medina when she was nine or ten. She was the only virgin that he married. Her father, Abu Bakr, married her to him and the apostle gave her four hundred dirhams. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah (The Life of Muhammad), translated by Alfred Guillaume [Oxford University Press, Karachi, tenth impression 1995], p. 792)

AL-TABARI

In this year also the Messenger of God consummated his marriage with ‘A’ishah. This was in Dhu al-Qa‘dah (May-June 623) eight months after his arrival in Medina according to some accounts, or in Shawwal (April-May 623) seven months after his arrival according to others. He had married her in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadijah. At that time she was six or, according to other accounts, seven years old.

According to ‘Ab al-Hamid b. Bayan al-Sukkari- Muhammad b. Yazid- Isma‘il (that is, Ibn Abi Khalid)- ‘Abd al-Rahman b. Abi al-Dahhak- a man from Quraysh- ‘Abd al-Rahman b. Muhammad: ‘Abd Allah b. Safwan together with another person came to ‘A’ishah, and ‘A’ishah said (to the latter), "O so-and-so, have you heard what Hafsah has been saying?" He said, "Yes, O Mother of the Faithful." ‘Abd Allah b. Safwan asked her, "What is that?" She replied, "There are nine special features in me that have not been in any woman, except for what God bestowed on Maryam bt. ‘Imran. By God, I do not say this to exalt myself over any of my companions." "What are these?" he asked. She replied, "The angel brought down my likeness; the Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine; he married me when I was a virgin, no other man having shared me with him; inspiration came to him when he and I were in a single blanket; I was one of the dearest people to him, a verse of the Qur’an was revealed concerning me when the community was almost destroyed; I saw Gabriel when none of his other wives saw him; and he was taken (that is, died) in his house when there was nobody with him but the angel and myself."

Umm Ruman said that al-Mut‘im b. ‘Adi had asked ‘A’ishah’s hand for his son, but Abu Bakr had not promised anything. Abu Bakr left and went to Mut‘im while his wife, mother of the son for whom he had asked ‘A’ishah’s hand, was with him. She said, "O son of Abu Quhafah, perhaps we could marry our son to your daughter if you could make him leave his religion and bring him in to the religion which you practice." He turned to her husband al-Mut‘im and said, "What is she saying?" He replied, "She says [what you have heard]." Abu Bakr left, [realizing that] God had [just] removed the problem he had in his mind. He said to Khawlah, "Call the Messenger of God." She called him and he came. Abu Bakr married [‘A’ishah] to him when she was [only] six years old. (The History of Al-Tabari: The Last Years of the Prophet, translated and annotated by Ismail K. Poonawala [State University of New York Press, Albany 1990], Volume IX, pp. 129-130)

‘A’ishah states: We came to Medina and Abu Bakr took up quarters in al-Sunh among the Banu al-Harith b. al-Khazraj. The Messenger of God came to our house and men and women of the Ansar gathered around him. My mother came to me WHILE I WAS BEING SWUNG ON A SWING BETWEEN TWO BRANCHES AND GOT ME DOWN. Jumaymah, my nurse, took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door, she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought [in] while the Messenger of God was sitting on a bed in our house. [My mother] made me sit on his lap and said, "These are your relatives. May God bless you with them and bless them with you!" Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me. Only Sa‘d b. ‘Ubaidah sent a bowl of food which he used to send to the Messenger of God.

‘Ali b. Nasr- ‘Abd al-Samad b. ‘Abd al-Warith- ‘Abd al-Warith b. ‘Abd al-Samad- his father- Aban al-‘Attar- Hisham b. ‘Urwah- ‘Urwah: He wrote to ‘Abd al-Malik b. Marwan stating that he had written to him about Khadijah bt. Khuwaylid, asking him about when she died. She died three years or close to that before the Messenger of God’s departure from Mecca, and he married ‘A’ishah after Khadijah’s death. The Messenger of God saw ‘A’ishah twice- [first when] it was said to him that she was his wife (she was six years old at that time), and later [when] he consummated she was nine years old.

(The report goes back to Hisham b. Muhammad. See above, I, 1766). Then the Messenger of God married ‘A’ishah bt. Abi Bakr, whose name is ‘Atiq b. Abi Quhafah, who is ‘Uthman, and is called ‘Abd al-Rahman b. ‘Uthman b. ‘Amir b. ‘Amir b. Ka‘b b. Sa‘d b. Taym b. Murrah: [The Prophet] married her three years before the Emigration, when she was seven years old, and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old, after he had emigrated to Medina in Shawwal. She was eighteen years old when he died. The Messenger of God did not marry any maiden except her. (The History of al-Tabari, Volume IX, pp. 130-131)

‘A’ishah, daughter of Abu Bakr.
Her mother was Umm Ruman bt. ‘Umayr b. ‘Amr, of the Banu Duhman b. al-Harith b. Ghanm b. Malik b. Kinanah.
The Prophet married ‘A’ishah in Shawwal in the tenth year after the [beginning of his] prophethood, three years before Emigration. He consummated the marriage in Shawwal, eight months after Emigration. On the day he consummated the marriage with her she was nine years old.

IBN KATHIR

Yunus b. Bukayr stated, from Hisham b. ‘Urwa, from his father who said, "The Messenger of God (SAAS) married ‘A’isha three years after (the death of) Khadija.At that time (of the contract) ‘A’isha had been a girl of six. When he married her she was nine. The Messenger of God (SAAS) died when ‘A’isha was a girl of eighteen. "

This tradition is considered gharib (unique in this line).

Al-Bukhari had related, from ‘Ubayd b. Isma‘il, from Abu Usama, from Hisham b. ‘Urwa, from his father, who said, "Khadija died three years before the emigration of the Prophet (SAAS). He allowed a couple of years or so to pass after that, and then he contracted marriage with ‘A’isha when she was six, thereafter consummating marriage with her when she was nine years old."

The hafiz Ya‘qub b. Sufyan stated, "Al-Hajjaj related to us, that Hammad related to him, from Hisham b. ‘Urwa, from his father, from ‘A’isha, who said, ‘The Messenger of God (SAAS), contracted marriage with me (after) Khadija’s death and before his emigration from Mecca, when I was six years old. After we arrived in Medina some women came to me while I was playing on a swing; my hair was like that of a boy. They dressed me up and put make-up on me, then took me to the Messenger of God (SAAS), and he consummated our marriage. I was a girl of nine.’"

IBN QAYYIM

Next, the Prophet… married Um Abdallah, Aishah, as-Siddiqah (the truthful one), daughter of as-Siddiq (the truthful one) Abu Bakr ibn Abi Qu’hafah, whom Allah has exonerated from above the seven heavens. ‘Aishah bint Abu Bakr was the beloved wife of the Prophet… The angel showed Aishah… to the Prophet… while she was wrapped in a piece of silk cloth, before he married her, and said to him. "This is your wife." The Prophet… married Aishah… during the lunar month of Shawwal, when she was six, and consummated the marriage in the first year after the Hijrah, in the month of Shawwal, when she was nine. The Prophet… did not marry any virgin, except Aishah… and the revelation never came to him while he was under the blanket with any of his wives, except Aishah. (Ibn Qayyim Al-Juaziyyah, Zad-ul Ma’ad fi Hadyi Khairi-l ‘Ibad (Provisions for the Hereafter, From the Guidance of Allah’s Best Worshipper), translated by Jalal Abualrub, edited by Alaa Mencke & Shaheed M. Ali [Madinah Publishers & Distributors, Orlando, Fl: First edition, December 2000], Volume I, pp. 157-158)

MARTIN LINGS

During the same year that followed Khadijah’s death, the Prophet dreamed that he saw a man who was carrying someone wrapped in a piece of silk. The man said to him: "This is thy wife, so uncover her." The Prophet lifted the silk and there was ‘A’ishah. But ‘A’ishah was only six years old, and he had passed his fiftieth year. Moreover Abu Bakr had promised her to Mut‘im for his son Jubayr. The Prophet simply said to himself: "If this be from God, He will bring it to pass." …

Meantime Abu Bakr approached Mut‘im, who was persuaded without difficulty to forgo the marriage of ‘A’ishah to his son; and, some months after the marriage of Sawdah, ‘A’ishah also became the Prophet’s wife, through a marriage contracted by him and her father, at which she herself was not present. She said afterwards, that she had her first inkling of her new status when one day she was playing with her friends outside, not far from their house, and her mother came and too her by the hand and led her indoors, telling her that henceforth she must not go out to play, and that her friends must come to her instead. ‘A’ishah dimly guessed the reason, though her mother did not immediately tell her that she was married; and apart from having to play in their courtyard instead of in the roads, her life continued as before. (Lings, Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources [Inner Traditions, International, Ltd.; Rochester Vermont, 1983], pp. 105-106)

The Prophet and his daughters now went to live with Sawda in her new house; and after a month or two it was decided that ‘A’ishah’s wedding should take place.She was then only nine years old, a child of remarkable beauty, as might have been expected from her parentage…

Small preparations were made for the wedding- not enough, at any rate for ‘A’ishah to have had a sense of a great and solemn occasion, and shortly before they were due to leave the house she had slipped out into the courtyard to play with her passing friend. In her own words: "I was playing on a see-saw and my long streaming hair was disheveled. They came and took me from my play and made me ready."

Abu Bakr had bought some fine red-striped cloth from Bahrain and it had been made into a wedding-dress for her. In this they now clothed her. Then her mother took her to the newly built house where some women of the Helpers were waiting for her outside the door. They greeted her with the words "For good and for happiness- may all be well!" and led her into the presence of the Prophet. He stood their smiling and combed her hair and decked her with ornaments. Unlike his other marriages, at this there was no wedding feast… then they all went their ways, and the bridegroom and the bride were left together.

For the last three years scarcely a day had passed by without one or more of ‘A’ishah’s friends coming to play with her in the courtyard adjoining her father’s house. Her removal to the Prophet’s house changed nothing in this respect. Friends now came every day to visit her in her own apartment – new friends made since her arrival in Medina and also some of the old ones whose parents, like hers, had emigrated. "I would be playing with my dolls," she said, "with the girls who were my friends, and the Prophet would come in and they would steal out of the house and he would go out after them and bring them back, for he was pleased for my sake to have them there." Sometimes he would say "Stay where ye are" before they had time to move. He would also join in their games sometimes, FOR HE LOVED CHILDREN [Sam- meaning Aisha was only a child like them] and had often played with his own daughters. The dolls of puppets had many different roles. "One day," said ‘A’ishah, "the Prophet came in when I was playing with the dolls and he said: ‘O ‘A’ishah, whatever game is this?’ I said: ‘It is Solomon’s horses,’ and he laughed." But sometimes as he came in he would simply screen himself with his cloak so as not to disturb them. (Ibid., pp. 132-134)

SAIF-UR-RAHMAN AL-MUBARAKPURI

3. 'Aishah bint Abu Bakr: He married her in the eleventh year of Prophethood, a year after his marriage to Sawdah, and two years and five months before Al-Hijra.She was six years old when he married her. However, he did not consummate the marriage with her till Shawwal seven months after Al-Hijra, and that was in Madinah. She was nine then. She was the only virgin he married, and the most beloved creature to him. As a woman she was the most learnèd woman in jurisprudence. (Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum (THE SEALED NECTAR) Biography of the Noble Prophet, [Maktaba Dar-us-Salam Publishers & Distributors, First Edition 1995], "The Prophetic Household", p. 485)
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Old 11-26-2015, 08:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Loyal_Heart View Post

Regarding menses , in the environment that the Prophet lived, menstruating women were considered polluted so the fact
that the Prophet did things publicly to demonstrate the baselessness of such an idea, you would think such progressive people would appreciate. The Prophet had sex. I know such a concept is problematic to people who embrace a religion that believes sex is filthy and women are the root of all evil in the world, but the rest of humanity does not have such an attitude. For the first 40 years of his life, the Prophet was completely monogamous.Regarding his multiple-wives, the fact that Christians have a problem with polygamy is a little odd, given the fact that it was practiced by almost all of the Old Testament Prophets. As to why the Prophet had more than four wives when everyone else was forbidden, it was an exception made exclusively for him; like a few other things, such as he and his family not being supported by means of zakat, even if they fit the criterion to be its recipients. After Asha, every woman the Prophet married was older than he. The only exception were the few women that became apart of his household after war and contrary to the claim, he chose women because of their tribal affiliations, not because of their age of beauty. Quite a few of his marriages immediately ended blood feuds that had been waged for decades. And after war, in pre-modern, pre-Geneva convention world, there were only three things that we done with prisoners:
1) they were taken humanely as apart of one's household,
2) they were ransomed to their surviving families for further wealth or
3) they were killed.
In fact, it was allah that said this:

"They will ask you about menstruation. Say, 'It is harmful, so keep away from women during it. Do not approach them until they are purified of it, when they are purified you may approach them as Allah has ordained." (Qur'an 2:222)
Surat Al-Baqarah [2:222] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

So are you saying that allah had baseless ideas? And Muhammed did these things in public? Sat in a public bath and fondled his child bride and other wives? Yikes!

Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298)

Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad:
(on the authority of his father) 'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299; see also Number 300)

Anyways, I do agree with you that Allah was backwards and made baseless claims. But I do have a serious issue with Muhammed raping a little 9 year old child, owning slaves, raping women, letting his men mass rape women, slaughtering people, hitting a child, making children suck his tongue, etc.

As far as taking all those wives, as long as they are all consenting adults, go for it! But not a child. Not slaves. Not rape.
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Old 11-26-2015, 09:30 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 756,458 times
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Originally Posted by Loyal_Heart View Post
And regarding the hadiths about sucking and kissing genitals parts.I have to say that the problem of hadiths is among the most difficult of problems the Muslims live with today especially at the present time; because the "Wahhabi Universities" graduate doctors who specialize in the field of hadiths. You find them memorizing the hadiths that concord with their schools and beliefs.Most of these hadiths are [the product] of the fabrications by the Umayyads, their predecessors, whose aims were also to extinguish the light of the message [of Islam] and to portray the Prophet as a feeble-minded clown not knowing what he says, not aware of his contradictory traditions, and deeds which [even] a madman would laugh at.Despite the efforts of researchers and ahl al-sunna scholars to cleanse and sift the traditions, there are still, most unfortunately,
in the authentic and reliable books, many [strange] things. Similarly, the Shi'a books are not safe from interpolations and
fabrications.

In addition ,not all Islamic books are authentic. Imam Bukhari, considered to be the most reliable collector, admitted that of the 300,000 hadith he collected, he considered only 100,000 might be true. He then narrowed this number down to 7,275, many of which are repetitions so that the total number is in fact near 3,000.
Again, when you copy and past you should give a link to the source (I have been warned about this by the moderators, so am passing the warning along to you so a moderator doesn't have to do it.)

Chapter 7: Concerning the Noble Hadith | Ask Those Who Know | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org

I didn't say anything about sucking and kissing genitals parts. My question was:

"2. What part of his body did Muhammed make children and infants suck on?"

I thought you would know the answer. You don't.

The hadiths are a vary important part of Islam. The 5 pillars draw much from them. As long as Islam uses them, so will I. It is very typical for Muslims to deny the what they do not like and quote what they do like, even from the same source. I do distinguish between weak and strong hadith and I also try to find collaboration between hadiths.

The good news is that, like you, quite a few Muslims are ashamed of Muhammed's actions and try to deny them. This is good. It does show a bit of Morality. But to really be moral, Muslims need to speak against what Muhammed did and be honest that he did those things. Like with the Nazis, it's not enough to say it never happened. It must be admitted that atrocities DID happen and that it was evil.

Personally, I would love to see all the hadith abolished, wiped from Islam. Muhammed was/is a horrible example for Muslims. Then the Quran could be cleaned up. But we both know this won't happen.
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