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Old 11-28-2015, 02:00 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Deconstructing the Fatwa Against ISIS [PDF]
This is an excellent, in-depth analysis of the much-publicized letter critical of ISIS by a group of Islamic scholars. It illustrates how problematic the issue of violence is in Islam and (thus) why the violence persists across the centuries.







Note the above image and what is its truth?
There are two truths on one image.
One can either see the duck or rabbit.


The problem of why terrible evils and violence persists within Islam and will continue to do so is because the Quran itself contain both good and evil elements [just as the image above] that influence certain groups of Muslims to act depending on their inherent psychological states.


There is no central authority within Islam and no humans can decide/interpret on the final say of what the Quran represent.


Thus the Fatwa issue by a group of 125 reputable religious leaders above [seeing the duck] will have no effect on ISIS [seeing the rabbit] from the same Quran [& hadith].
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Old 11-28-2015, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Deconstructing the Fatwa Against ISIS [PDF]
This is an excellent, in-depth analysis of the much-publicized letter critical of ISIS by a group of Islamic scholars. It illustrates how problematic the issue of violence is in Islam and (thus) why the violence persists across the centuries.







Note the above image and what is its truth?
There are two truths on one image.
One can either see the duck or rabbit.


The problem of why terrible evils and violence persists within Islam and will continue to do so is because the Quran itself contain both good and evil elements [just as the image above] that influence certain groups of Muslims to act depending on their inherent psychological states.


There is no central authority within Islam and no humans can decide/interpret on the final say of what the Quran represent.


Thus the Fatwa issue by a group of 125 reputable religious leaders above [seeing the duck] will have no effect on ISIS [seeing the rabbit] from the same Quran [& hadith].
I think the actual point is that ISIS is the antithesis of the majority of Muslims.

It is of no real concern what non-Muslims think Islam is, what is important are the actual views and beliefs of the individual Muslim one comes in contact with.

Have to shake the concept that Islam is the name of a specific group of people. We are all individuals and what all Muslims have in common is we each try to perform Islam to the best of our ability and knowledge.

The vast majority of us believe Islam teaches peace and tolerance a minority believes it condones or even commands aggression against non-Muslims. They are not being led by the Qur'an they are misusing the Qur'an to suit their desires.

their predisposistion for evil will still exist without Islam, they would simply find other excuses or simply be the criminals they are.
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Old 11-28-2015, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think the actual point is that ISIS is the antithesis of the majority of Muslims.

It is of no real concern what non-Muslims think Islam is, what is important are the actual views and beliefs of the individual Muslim one comes in contact with.

Have to shake the concept that Islam is the name of a specific group of people. We are all individuals and what all Muslims have in common is we each try to perform Islam to the best of our ability and knowledge.
As usual you are not seeing what is most critical.


As we can agree, 20% of humans, therefore also Muslims are evil prone.
What is 'evil' comes in degrees ranging from 1-Low to 100 High.
The evil represented by ISIS would be say, 95/100. Nevertheless what is ISIS is still part of Islam despite the contention by the majority.


Because such evil by ISIS is so threatening and glaring it is obvious such evil is the focus of attention by most.
However the overall criticalness of the issue is the range of evil from 1/100 to 99.9/100 that is committed by the evil prone Muslims from that pool of the 20% potentials, i.e. 300 million
all over the world.
Example of this range of evils are; minorities are oppressed in various manners, women are disadvantage and raped, pushing of barbaric sharia laws in non-Muslim majority countries, no-sharia-zones [it exists despite the contention], the hindering of education and science [evolution, creation] and a whole load of other matters that are negative to the well being of humanity.
All these are done in the name of Islam as supported by verses in the Quran [& AHadiths].


I agree what is important in the ultimate is individual merits that is presented to Allah on Judgment Day. However there are also merits that call Muslims to help one another to defend the religion and to use force if necessary; problem with this is the verses involved are very vague.


Another point is you do not take into account the 'birds of feather flock together' factor where the individual humans naturally like to gang together with those who share their proclivities and tendencies.
As mentioned above we have 300 million evil prone Muslims around the world who interpret the Quran 'correctly' [no one can has authority to override them]. It is only very natural that those who are evil prone will flock and gang up together and impose their will on the majority based on their correct interpretation of the Quran. This is already a reality with ISIS [notable] and a wide range of other evil prone groupings around the world.
This is one reality which you cannot counter with 'Islam is a personal and individual affair.'
Thus my point, Islam-in-part contribute to Islamic-inspired evils and violence.

Quote:
The vast majority of us believe Islam teaches peace and tolerance a minority believes it condones or even commands aggression against non-Muslims. They are not being led by the Qur'an they are misusing the Qur'an to suit their desires.

their predisposistion for evil will still exist without Islam, they would simply find other excuses or simply be the criminals they are.
As I had said, the Quran is two-face or a double-side blade which can cut both ways depending on who is using it. This can be proven by the tons of evil laden verses in the Quran and Hadiths.
The moderates will ignore these evil laden verses but because these verses are the direct word of Allah via Gabriel and Muhammad, the evil prone who are inspired by these evil laden verses are not wrong in the 'eyes' of Allah when they meet him on Judgment Day.
What counts is not YOUR judgment but Allah's judgment on that DAY.


I believe based on what I read of the Quran, by ignoring the 'spirit'/essence of evil laden verses you [as a slave of Allah] is avoiding the elements with higher merit points. If you want to ignore that is your business, but if you condemn those [jihadists] who follow the other good verses [we interpret as evil], it is likely you are going against the words of Allah, thus committing a great sin.
Another point is how do you know you are right and they are wrong when there is no central authority or anyone who can judge on behalf of Allah.
Thus you could be committing a sin by partnering [awliyaa] the infidels with their humane and compassionate thinking especially when Muslims are being oppressed around the world.
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Old 11-29-2015, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As usual you are not seeing what is most critical.


As we can agree, 20% of humans, therefore also Muslims are evil prone.
What is 'evil' comes in degrees ranging from 1-Low to 100 High.
The evil represented by ISIS would be say, 95/100. Nevertheless what is ISIS is still part of Islam despite the contention by the majority.


Because such evil by ISIS is so threatening and glaring it is obvious such evil is the focus of attention by most.
However the overall criticalness of the issue is the range of evil from 1/100 to 99.9/100 that is committed by the evil prone Muslims from that pool of the 20% potentials, i.e. 300 million
all over the world.
Example of this range of evils are; minorities are oppressed in various manners, women are disadvantage and raped, pushing of barbaric sharia laws in non-Muslim majority countries, no-sharia-zones [it exists despite the contention], the hindering of education and science [evolution, creation] and a whole load of other matters that are negative to the well being of humanity.
All these are done in the name of Islam as supported by verses in the Quran [& AHadiths].


I agree what is important in the ultimate is individual merits that is presented to Allah on Judgment Day. However there are also merits that call Muslims to help one another to defend the religion and to use force if necessary; problem with this is the verses involved are very vague.


Another point is you do not take into account the 'birds of feather flock together' factor where the individual humans naturally like to gang together with those who share their proclivities and tendencies.
As mentioned above we have 300 million evil prone Muslims around the world who interpret the Quran 'correctly' [no one can has authority to override them]. It is only very natural that those who are evil prone will flock and gang up together and impose their will on the majority based on their correct interpretation of the Quran. This is already a reality with ISIS [notable] and a wide range of other evil prone groupings around the world.
This is one reality which you cannot counter with 'Islam is a personal and individual affair.'
Thus my point, Islam-in-part contribute to Islamic-inspired evils and violence.

As I had said, the Quran is two-face or a double-side blade which can cut both ways depending on who is using it. This can be proven by the tons of evil laden verses in the Quran and Hadiths.
The moderates will ignore these evil laden verses but because these verses are the direct word of Allah via Gabriel and Muhammad, the evil prone who are inspired by these evil laden verses are not wrong in the 'eyes' of Allah when they meet him on Judgment Day.
What counts is not YOUR judgment but Allah's judgment on that DAY.


I believe based on what I read of the Quran, by ignoring the 'spirit'/essence of evil laden verses you [as a slave of Allah] is avoiding the elements with higher merit points. If you want to ignore that is your business, but if you condemn those [jihadists] who follow the other good verses [we interpret as evil], it is likely you are going against the words of Allah, thus committing a great sin.
Another point is how do you know you are right and they are wrong when there is no central authority or anyone who can judge on behalf of Allah.
Thus you could be committing a sin by partnering [awliyaa] the infidels with their humane and compassionate thinking especially when Muslims are being oppressed around the world.
Find one, just one ayyat that commands violence against innocent people or all disbelievers.

I read the Qur'an in Arabic and treat each line (the English invention of lines)as a single word as they are pronounced as single words in tajweed recitations.. No Ayyat is a stand alone thought, although in English translations they can be lenghty sentences, but when proprly recited they are much more like single words. and should be treated as such not as sentences.
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MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

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Old 11-29-2015, 08:39 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Find one, just one ayyat that commands violence against innocent people or all disbelievers.

I read the Qur'an in Arabic and treat each line (the English invention of lines)as a single word as they are pronounced as single words in tajweed recitations. No Ayyat is a stand alone thought, although in English translations they can be lenghty sentences, but when proprly recited they are much more like single words. and should be treated as such not as sentences.
You are trying to be deceptive again here.


Note my thesis;
1. 20% of humans [including] Muslims are evil prone due to lack of impulse controls.
2. The Quran [& Hadiths] contain loads of evil laden verses [of various degrees].
3. The combination of 1 and 2 facilitate SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.
I agree no Ayyat can stand alone but need to be considered in the various contexts within Islam and reality itself. We have discussed this before.


In the whole context of Islam, the above set of elements [1, 2 & 3] create an inherent malignant set within Islam.
Therefore Islam-in-part is inherently evil.
This inherent evil influence and inspire SOME from the pool of 300 million potential evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence around the world. The evidence for this is very glaring.


The Quran [& Hadiths] contain loads of evil laden verses [of various degrees].
The Quran is a double-edged blade with its share of good and evil laden verses. It is has two equally valid truths of either good or evil depending on the person reading it. Note the duck-rabbit image I posted above.


There are 3000+ evil laden verses [of various degrees] in the Quran that could influence the evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence against non-Muslims. So it is a waste of time for me to debate them verse by verse.


Here is one rational analysis of evil in Islam [Quran, Hadiths and Sira] done by Bill Warner [a Quantum Physicists who have studied Islam for 30 years] - note the Statistics @ 11:15. Would be better if you listen to the whole video.
I have done a very detailed analysis of the evil laden verses in the Quran but the results are slightly different.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...z9BiXwXs#t=679


Similarly in the case of media-influenced-violence, e.g. films, books, sports, hobbies, computer games and the likes, it is not that a person will immediately act violence immediate after seeing a violent show.
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