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Old 12-07-2015, 06:39 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,854 times
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.



Quote:
In fact I have claimed that the Muslims of ISIS are more truer Muslims than the majority of so-called moderate Muslims. This can be proven objectively by assessing how much the Muslims of ISIS comply with the doctrines, terms and conditions of their covenant with Allah as dictated in the Quran [MGA-610] and no where else.

You're not serious about that are you? Those people kill at the bat of an eyelash. They decide who is, or, is not Muslim. And they've decided that Shia are not Muslim (no reason is given, to the best of my knowledge). Also, if you don't know how many prostrations there are in a particular prayer, you're dead. I watched a video whereby this very thing took place. They (Muslims with automatic rifles) stopped some truck drivers and questioned them about prayer. The men seemed confused when asked how many kneeling's, there are in a certain prayer. They then took the men off to the side of the road, and made them kneel. The video was cut at that point.



Wassalaam. devotee
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Old 12-07-2015, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.






You're not serious about that are you? Those people kill at the bat of an eyelash. They decide who is, or, is not Muslim. And they've decided that Shia are not Muslim (no reason is given, to the best of my knowledge). Also, if you don't know how many prostrations there are in a particular prayer, you're dead. I watched a video whereby this very thing took place. They (Muslims with automatic rifles) stopped some truck drivers and questioned them about prayer. The men seemed confused when asked how many kneeling's, there are in a certain prayer. They then took the men off to the side of the road, and made them kneel. The video was cut at that point.



Wassalaam. devotee
The minute a Muslim calls anyone a Kafir, they have become an apostate if that person they called kafir, is a Muslim. It is not wise to call anyone Kafir. We can say what makes a person a Kafir, but can not point a finger at anyone and call them Kafir. Unless they them self have said they are Kafir and have deliberately chosen to be Kafir with knowledge and of their own free will. To harm a person because you think they are a kafir, is almost certain hellfire. A Muslim can not kill a Muslim, therefore if a Muslim does deliberately kill a person who says they are Muslim, the killer can not be a Muslim and must be an apostate.
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
One of the most commonly used smoke screens and misdirections.

Of course we know 5:32 is from Jewish Scripture as was the refelection of cain and Abel in the ayyat before.


Ayyat 33 and 34 are very strong warnings that those who kill another human will face very harsh punishment on earth and in the hereafter

Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread) - 5:33

5:27-40 really should be read as a single paragraph. In a recitation they are recited in Arabic with a single breath as a single sentence. It is a bit choppy and inaccurate to read each as a seperate thought when they are a single though which basically is "Thou Shalt not Kill" Which if you read the Torah in Hebrew is actually a category of Commandments consisting of quite a few lines.

The Qur'an is not a new Message everything in it can be found in some variation in the earlier Scriptures the Torah, Psalms and Gospel of Jesus(a.s.)
You meant Muslims used that as a 'smokescreen' and misdirection? If 'yes' I agree, if no - you missed the point.


The point is Muslims are very fond of using 5:33 to claim that Islam [as per Quran] is a very peaceful religion, i.e. ..to kill one is to kill mankind..
What I am claiming is such a claim is mere cherry picking and do not reflect the truth of the Quran and Islam.


Because in the next verse 5:34 implies that Muslims can kill non-Muslims if they commit 'corruption'.
Allah [actually Muhammad] is at fault here for allowing exceptions based on a very vague term 'corruption.'
As I mentioned above, the term 'corruption' in the Quran and 5:34 is a very loose term and any desperate Muslims [from the pool of 20%] will interpret that term in its loosest form and therefrom commit terrible evils and violence together with other verses that has evil laden elements. This is already a reality since Islam emerged within the history of humanity.


Since there is no central authority and Allah is absent, who in the world can tell these jihadists who are desperate for their personal salvation are wrong in their interpretations. This ambiguity and suspension of any final say is one of the ultimate cause of Islamic inspired violence. The fault lies in Muhammad who included this verse in the Quran for whatever his reasons.


'Killing' is one of the worst moral wrong within humanity.
The Quran would be better off it is just copy and paste the Commandment 6 -'Thou Shall Not Kill' from the Torah. There is no need to give excuses at all and leave Allah to decide if there are any killing of another human.
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
In fact I have claimed that the Muslims of ISIS are more truer Muslims than the majority of so-called moderate Muslims. This can be proven objectively by assessing how much the Muslims of ISIS comply with the doctrines, terms and conditions of their covenant with Allah as dictated in the Quran [MGA-610] and no where else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
You're not serious about that are you?
I am VERY SERIOUS about that!
I can prove it very objectively.


1. A Muslim is an adherent of Islam as represented by the Quran [MGA-610] and nothing else.
2. To qualify as a Muslim, one has to performed the essence sahada [in whatever form]. Here is how Tayib define as Muslim;
However, Tayib concluded by saying, "Al Azhar cannot accuse any [Muslim] of being a kafir [infidel], as long as he believes in Allah and the Last Day—even if he commits every atrocity,"
3. I presume all [if not 99.9%] of the followers of ISIS would have performed their sahada.
4. The followers of ISIS are Muslims.
5. To be a Muslim one must comply with the Quran's terms and conditions of the covenant made with Allah.
6. The followers of ISIS comply [net overall basis] with more terms and conditions than the moderate Muslims.
7. Therefore the Muslims of ISIS are more truer Muslims than the 'moderates.'


The above is the objective proof 'the Muslims of ISIS are more truer Muslims than the 'moderates.''
I understand I have to substantiate some of the above premises with more details but I am confident you are not able to prove me wrong.




Quote:
Those people kill at the bat of an eyelash. They decide who is, or, is not Muslim. And they've decided that Shia are not Muslim (no reason is given, to the best of my knowledge).
Also, if you don't know how many prostrations there are in a particular prayer, you're dead. I watched a video whereby this very thing took place.
They (Muslims with automatic rifles) stopped some truck drivers and questioned them about prayer. The men seemed confused when asked how many kneeling's, there are in a certain prayer. They then took the men off to the side of the road, and made them kneel. The video was cut at that point.
Wassalaam. devotee
That is your opinion.
The most critical point for a Muslim is the decision of Allah on Judgment Day where all the acts and thoughts of a Muslim are assessed based on what is recorded in the sijjin or iliyin.


Now WHO ARE YOU, an infallible human being to decide and make judgment on Earth what the Muslims of ISIS did are wrong. More so, there is no central authority to have a final say on whether a Muslim has sin or not especially on those ambiguous terms.


The Muslims of ISIS are not perfect and they would have committed certain sins of lesser degrees, but the point is their net overall actions and thoughts are a net-positive which is higher than the 'moderate' Muslims.
If the moderate score 60/100, the Muslims of ISIS would score 85/100 in compliance with the doctrines, terms and conditions in the Quran [MGA-610].


So my point is the Quran as authored by Muhammad is at fault for its inclusion of tons of evil laden elements [besides the good elements] that spurred and inspired the Muslims of ISIS to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims based on what they interpreted as Islamic.


The Muslims of ISIS may be truer Muslims but they are not more humans. The moderates are lesser Muslims but they are being more human as they exercise more humane qualities by compromising the evil elements in the Quran. As 'higher' human beings the moderates ignore [some are blind to] the evil laden elements and are more compassionate to non-Muslims and other Muslims.
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Old 12-08-2015, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am VERY SERIOUS about that!
I can prove it very objectively.


1. A Muslim is an adherent of Islam as represented by the Quran [MGA-610] and nothing else.
2. To qualify as a Muslim, one has to performed the essence sahada [in whatever form]. Here is how Tayib define as Muslim;
However, Tayib concluded by saying, "Al Azhar cannot accuse any [Muslim] of being a kafir [infidel], as long as he believes in Allah and the Last Day—even if he commits every atrocity,"
3. I presume all [if not 99.9%] of the followers of ISIS would have performed their sahada.
4. The followers of ISIS are Muslims.
5. To be a Muslim one must comply with the Quran's terms and conditions of the covenant made with Allah.
6. The followers of ISIS comply [net overall basis] with more terms and conditions than the moderate Muslims.
7. Therefore the Muslims of ISIS are more truer Muslims than the 'moderates.'


The above is the objective proof 'the Muslims of ISIS are more truer Muslims than the 'moderates.''
I understand I have to substantiate some of the above premises with more details but I am confident you are not able to prove me wrong.




That is your opinion.
The most critical point for a Muslim is the decision of Allah on Judgment Day where all the acts and thoughts of a Muslim are assessed based on what is recorded in the sijjin or iliyin.


Now WHO ARE YOU, an infallible human being to decide and make judgment on Earth what the Muslims of ISIS did are wrong. More so, there is no central authority to have a final say on whether a Muslim has sin or not especially on those ambiguous terms.


The Muslims of ISIS are not perfect and they would have committed certain sins of lesser degrees, but the point is their net overall actions and thoughts are a net-positive which is higher than the 'moderate' Muslims.
If the moderate score 60/100, the Muslims of ISIS would score 85/100 in compliance with the doctrines, terms and conditions in the Quran [MGA-610].


So my point is the Quran as authored by Muhammad is at fault for its inclusion of tons of evil laden elements [besides the good elements] that spurred and inspired the Muslims of ISIS to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims based on what they interpreted as Islamic.


The Muslims of ISIS may be truer Muslims but they are not more humans. The moderates are lesser Muslims but they are being more human as they exercise more humane qualities by compromising the evil elements in the Quran. As 'higher' human beings the moderates ignore [some are blind to] the evil laden elements and are more compassionate to non-Muslims and other Muslims.
Each Muslim is responsible for his own actions. Only he knows how true of a Muslim he is. Perfection is not expected. But we each is to perform Islam to the best of our ability and knowledge.

There is no way to measue the level of Muslim another person might be. A person can obey the Qur'an completly but be a total slouch and amongst the worse of Muslims if they are performing to the best of their ability or with sincerity. If they are not doing so with sincerity and knowledge, they may be doomed to eternal hellfire as hypocrites although to those who know them they look like perfect examples.

I really doubt that ISIS is committing atrocities based upon what they learned from the Qur'an. My own guess is they were hateful people that convinced them self they are performing Islam.

Most seem to be Quranis 9Quran only) and fail to understand the Qur'an teaches very little about performing Islam.

A person who reads the Qur'an as a book of cammands has not read the Qur'an. If a person does not find themself lead into peace, contentment and patience after reader, they are not reading with the right purpose, attitude and intention.

some guides on how to read the Qur'an

http://productivemuslim.com/reading-...-productively/

Rewards, Benefits and Virtues of Quran and its Recitation | IqraSense.com

https://books.google.com/books?id=zk...20soul&f=false

Reciting Qur’an is a way to Taqwa

In many ways what a person gets from the Qur'an is the result of what they put into it. If a person reads it with a heart filled with hatred, they will find hatred. If they read it with a heart filled with love for their fellow humans, they will find that love.
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Old 12-08-2015, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Each Muslim is responsible for his own actions. Only he knows how true of a Muslim he is. Perfection is not expected. But we each is to perform Islam to the best of our ability and knowledge.
Again you are cherry picking and do not take the whole context of the Quran into account.


1. It is true each Muslim has to face Allah alone on Judgment Day and be responsible for his deeds.
2. However elsewhere in the Quran, Muslims are expected to learn from others and some are expected to teach others. Note the verse where it stated not all need to go to war as some are needed to stay back to teach the religion.
3. Yes, perfection is not expected, but a Muslim must do his best within his ability. In the Quran those who hesitated to go to war for the cause of Allah to defend Islam were rebuked and label as cowards.



Quote:
There is no way to measue the level of Muslim another person might be. A person can obey the Qur'an completly but be a total slouch and amongst the worse of Muslims if they are performing to the best of their ability or with sincerity. If they are not doing so with sincerity and knowledge, they may be doomed to eternal hellfire as hypocrites although to those who know them they look like perfect examples.
The degree or grade of Muslim-ness can be measured.
A Muslim is one who has entered into an Islamic contract [covenant, agreement] with Allah. The terms and agreements are stipulated in the Quran [MGA-610] and no where else.
Muslims has the Quran right in front of them, so one can measure the degree of Muslim-ness based on compliance with the terms in the Quran to the best of their ability. This is obvious the most objective approach rather than simply guessing or based on hearsay.


Therefore the first requirement is a Muslim MUST [an imperative] obey and comply with the Quran completely. This is definitely meritorious in Allah's view and that is obviously better than a Muslim who is not doing it.
Then it is only the second requirement, the Muslim must comply with accurateness and sincere effort.
The point is when a Muslim take the trouble to read the whole of the Quran and make an attempt to comply with it, that would be a sign of devotion, piety and probably zealousness.
A devoted Muslim is not likely to be a slouch or interpret the Quran in accordance to his whims as he would be aware he would end up in Hell if he make any mistake. Under such a threat of Hell, I bet those who read and follow the Quran is likely to be sincere and are doing their best.


Doing the best and complying with all that is the Quran would mean following the doctrines and principles that comprised partly evil laden elements. They have no choice but to commit the evils and violence otherwise they will go to Hell.



Quote:
I really doubt that ISIS is committing atrocities based upon what they learned from the Qur'an. My own guess is they were hateful people that convinced them self they are performing Islam.

Most seem to be Quranis (Quran only) and fail to understand the Qur'an teaches very little about performing Islam.

A person who reads the Qur'an as a book of cammands has not read the Qur'an. If a person does not find themself lead into peace, contentment and patience after reader, they are not reading with the right purpose, attitude and intention.

some guides on how to read the Qur'an

Reading the Qur

Rewards, Benefits and Virtues of Quran and its Recitation | IqraSense.com

https://books.google.com/books?id=zk...20soul&f=false

Reciting Qur’an is a way to Taqwa

In many ways what a person gets from the Qur'an is the result of what they put into it. If a person reads it with a heart filled with hatred, they will find hatred. If they read it with a heart filled with love for their fellow humans, they will find that love.
As I had stated and addressed to all Muslims and non-Muslim;
WHO ARE YOU as a fallible human being to decide and make judgment on what is right or wrong in relation to compliance with the doctrines of the words of Allah in the Quran [MGA-610].


From evidence it is obvious the Muslims of ISIS and those who support ISIS and the likes are very serious with Islam and are very familiar with the Quran.


Now when the Muslims of ISIS and the likes read in the Quran of the following;
1. War is ordained for you.
2. Cast terror upon the non-Muslims
3. Kill non-Muslims if they are a threat [corruption] to and hinder the Islam.


Based on the above, they proceed to kill non-Muslims because the non-Muslims commit corruption and hinder the progress of Islam.
From the point of view of Allah and the Quran, the jihadists are merely following the doctrines and principles sincerely as laid down by Allah in the Quran so that their compliance will ensure they go to paradise.
As such they will be rewarded as per the terms of the covenant they has made with Allah.
Since there is no central authority,
WHO ARE YOU [or any one else] as a fallible human being to decide and make judgment on what is right or wrong in relation to compliance with the doctrines of the words of Allah in the Quran [MGA-610].


Your opinions and views above just don't count as far as Islam is concern on Judgment Day, it is between to Allah and the jihadists. You cannot argue against Allah and what he had conveyed in the Quran via Muhammad - Gabriel starting in 610AD.


However your opinions and views above will count only if you are deliberating them outside the scope of Islam, i.e. within the scope of generic human morality.


The truth of the problem is there is no God and the Quran was authored by a man [or a group of man] for some personal interests. Unfortunately the person or group of persons were not sufficiently wise and they concocted a core religious text [made immutable as a way of life] that is filled with evil laden elements which inspired some evil prone believers to commit terrible evils and violence.

In contrast, note some of the Eastern religions were founded by wiser men who took the trouble to avoid putting evil laden elements in their holy texts thus providing no opportunities for their evil prone believers to take advantage of them to commit religion-inspired violence.
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Old 12-09-2015, 06:52 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,854 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The minute a Muslim calls anyone a Kafir, they have become an apostate if that person they called kafir, is a Muslim. It is not wise to call anyone Kafir. We can say what makes a person a Kafir, but can not point a finger at anyone and call them Kafir. Unless they them self have said they are Kafir and have deliberately chosen to be Kafir with knowledge and of their own free will. To harm a person because you think they are a kafir, is almost certain hellfire. A Muslim can not kill a Muslim, therefore if a Muslim does deliberately kill a person who says they are Muslim, the killer can not be a Muslim and must be an apostate.


That is my point exactly! How can a group of Muslims, who observe the five pillars, prays regularly, makes the pilgrimage to Mecca, et cetera, not be a Muslim. But those Muslims in ISL, who have chosen their own Caliphate make their own rules. They appear to be exalting themselves. But time, will tell on them.





Wassalaam. devotee
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Old 12-09-2015, 06:58 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,854 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.



Quote:
Now WHO ARE YOU, an infallible human being to decide and make judgment on Earth what the Muslims of ISIS did are wrong. More so, there is no central authority to have a final say on whether a Muslim has sin or not especially on those ambiguous terms.


The Muslims of ISIS are not perfect and they would have committed certain sins of lesser degrees, but the point is their net overall actions and thoughts are a net-positive which is higher than the 'moderate' Muslims.
As mentioned in my previous post:
They (Muslims with automatic rifles) stopped some truck drivers and questioned them about prayer. The men seemed confused when asked how many kneeling's, there are in a certain prayer. They then took the men off to the side of the road, and made them kneel. The video was cut at that point.

Perhaps you can explain what that inquiring Muslim, was referring to. I suspect that he meant 'sitting back on the heels,' but it is obvious he was trying to confuse the men. I know of no posture in the prayers that is referred to as "kneeling." These men were killed because they were Muslim!! And probably better Muslims than ISIS.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PC3aZ2qPcAs ISIS.. killing of three Iraqi truck drivers,killing because they aren't Sunni





Wassalaam. devotee
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Old 12-09-2015, 08:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
As mentioned in my previous post:
They (Muslims with automatic rifles) stopped some truck drivers and questioned them about prayer. The men seemed confused when asked how many kneeling's, there are in a certain prayer. They then took the men off to the side of the road, and made them kneel. The video was cut at that point.
As mentioned in my previous post:
WHO ARE YOU [or any one else] as a fallible human being to decide and make judgment on what is right or wrong in relation to compliance with the doctrines of the words of Allah in the Quran [MGA-610].
Note in the 'eyes' of Allah [not you or anyone else] those Muslims with automatic rifles may not have committed any sins and these Muslims believed they did not commit any sins against Allah's expectation in the Quran [MGA-610AD].


Therefore from the perspective of Allah, these Muslims did not sin as they has complied with the doctrines, rules and principles in the Quran, i.e. dealt with those who are a threat to Islam is the way of Allah.


Btw, I am not supporting ISIS but being objective.

Quote:
Perhaps you can explain what that inquiring Muslim, was referring to. I suspect that he meant 'sitting back on the heels,' but it is obvious he was trying to confuse the men. I know of no posture in the prayers that is referred to as "kneeling." These men were killed because they were Muslim!! And probably better Muslims than ISIS.

ISIS.. killing of three Iraqi truck drivers,killing because they aren't Sunni
Wassalaam. devotee
In principle, these Muslims are extremely fearful of Allah, therefore I can bet they will not dare to go act against the words of Allah as in the Quran-MGA-610 or the sayings of the Ahadiths. Do you agree with this?


How do you know they were killed?
"The video was cut at that point"
-so we cannot know what actually happened and one can only speculate. Maybe nothing happened.
We do not know what is the context of the background. Maybe these Muslims were in a location where there were Christians or Yazidis, so they test these truck drivers on their knowledge of Islamic practices.


Even if they are killed, these Muslims would not dare to act in such a way that would go against the words of Allah in the Quran[MGA-610]. Therefore they must killed them based on the verses in the Quran or the Hadiths.


Point is since we do not know the full details, we cannot simply jump to conclusion.


However, one principle remain;
The Muslims of ISIS must be extremely fearful of Allah and thus there is no way they will go against the words of Allah in the Quran or the sayings in the Hadiths.


If there is anything to be blame, we have to blame the Quran [partly] and Ahadiths [partly] for being ambiguous that induce and inspire the Muslims of ISIS [and the likes] to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.


Quote:
And probably better Muslims than ISIS.
Are you prepared to discuss rationally, logically, objectively and wisely?
If so, then there are ways [at least reasonably] to assess who are the better Muslims.
This can be done by assessing their compliance to the words of Allah, i.e. the 6,236 verses in the Quran and no where else.
I bet, based on such an objective measure as above you are a lesser Muslim than the average Muslims of ISIS.


The fault is Islam-in-part because if Islam with the Quran-MGA-610 and Ahadiths are to be introduced anywhere to a large group of people, there will be inevitable evil and violence. This is because within any large group of humans there is a natural existence of 20% of evil prone humans. These natural evil prone humans will feed on the evil laden elements as sanctioned by Allah in the Quran-MGA-610.


Here is a control experiment;
1. Say there is another Earth-liked planet somewhere with 7 billion humans therein.
2. Naturally there are 20% of humans who are evil prone.
3. Then we introduce the mainstream religions on that planet.
4. One of the mainstream religion is Islam with its Quran-MGA-610AD and Hadiths.
5. In time there will inevitably be terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims being inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran and Hadiths.


Can you prove me wrong on this?
[note I said Earth-like, so don't change this condition]
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Old 12-10-2015, 03:08 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,087 times
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I want to tell All fellow members that we as Muslims hate ISIS more then Non-Muslim Why? because non-muslims dont know about islam and they hate ISIS for their actions but we (Muslims) hate them not only for their actions but also we know the teachings of Islam and we know they have nothing to do with Islam. They are enemies of Islam and Humanity as well. So we hate them more because they are spreading propaganda and misconceptions about Islam.
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