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Old 12-10-2015, 06:59 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,915,918 times
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In the Bible, we find this:

If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you."

If a Christian today reads this and follows it, would he be MORE obedient to the Bible or would he be disobeying what his holy book commands him to do? Now this passage is straightforward. The entire context of the passage is about resisting and/or removing members of the community who try to entice other members to follow other gods.

Well, most of today's Christians would not even consider such a thing (even if they think it). Others are not even aware the passage is on their bibles. Those who actually know it exists and would be troubled with such passages, apply apologetics and fall back on the "that was under the law and Christians are NOT obligated to follow the law" apologetic loophole which, really, is NOT a unanimous conclusion in the New Testament. So, again, which Christian would be the "True" Christian? The one who would follow the passage above to the tee OR the Christian who side steps it with all kinds of excuses or just ignorance of the passage?

This is what Continuum is, I believe, trying to get at. ISIS followers find justification for their evils in the very same book Woodrow finds peaceful mandates. Muslims like Woodrow and modern day Christians, find ways to rationalize away or skirt around or DIRECT orders or examples found in their holy books. In fact, contents are sometimes contradictory and vague and allows for these dual or wide open interpretations.

For the Christian today, living in SECULAR societies, there are consequences for murdering someone just because another person in their family is of another faith OR tries to talk them out of their Christian beliefs. THey, for the most part, choose to obey the secular laws than what is in their bibles on matters such as these. In contrast, in SOME Muslim countries where Koran based Sharia law is in effect, one could lose their lives for trying to deconvert a Muslim or for preaching some other faith because secular law is NOT the order of their day. Rather, it is more Koranic law.
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Old 12-10-2015, 07:19 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
I want to tell All fellow members that we as Muslims hate ISIS more then Non-Muslim Why? because non-muslims dont know about islam and they hate ISIS for their actions but we (Muslims) hate them not only for their actions but also we know the teachings of Islam and we know they have nothing to do with Islam. They are enemies of Islam and Humanity as well. So we hate them more because they are spreading propaganda and misconceptions about Islam.
wa Alaikum Salaam wa Ramatullahi wa Barktuhu (and the Peace, Blessings and Mercy of Allah also be with you)

Very true, they are the greatest thrat to Islam that has been seen for many centuries. Not only are they killing Muslim they are convincing non-Muslims that they are the only true Muslims, resulting in us being hated iby many people. Even here on this forum one can see the hatred they have caused against Islam.

Reading these posts one can see that some, probably many, non-Muslims believe ISIS represents Islam

But again this has all been foretold and the world is unfolding in accordance with prophecy. Nearly all of the lesser signs have been completed and ISIS seems to be completing, the last of the minor signs and some of the major signs.

Some of the prophecies that are being fulfilled in today's world

13. A trial (fitnah), which will enter every Arab household.

14. Knowledge will be taken away (by the death of people of knowledge), and ignorance will prevail.

19. Tribulations (fitan) will prevail.

20. Bloodshed will increase.

22. Trustworthiness will be lost, i.e. when authority is given to those who do not deserve it.

23. People will gather for prayer, but will be unable to find an imam to lead them.

Articles and FAQs about Islam, Muslims, Allah, Muhammad (pbuh), Quran, Hadith, Woman, Fiqh and Fatwa.
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Old 12-10-2015, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
In the Bible, we find this:

If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you."

If a Christian today reads this and follows it, would he be MORE obedient to the Bible or would he be disobeying what his holy book commands him to do? Now this passage is straightforward. The entire context of the passage is about resisting and/or removing members of the community who try to entice other members to follow other gods.

Well, most of today's Christians would not even consider such a thing (even if they think it). Others are not even aware the passage is on their bibles. Those who actually know it exists and would be troubled with such passages, apply apologetics and fall back on the "that was under the law and Christians are NOT obligated to follow the law" apologetic loophole which, really, is NOT a unanimous conclusion in the New Testament. So, again, which Christian would be the "True" Christian? The one who would follow the passage above to the tee OR the Christian who side steps it with all kinds of excuses or just ignorance of the passage?

This is what Continuum is, I believe, trying to get at. ISIS followers find justification for their evils in the very same book Woodrow finds peaceful mandates. Muslims like Woodrow and modern day Christians, find ways to rationalize away or skirt around or DIRECT orders or examples found in their holy books. In fact, contents are sometimes contradictory and vague and allows for these dual or wide open interpretations.

For the Christian today, living in SECULAR societies, there are consequences for murdering someone just because another person in their family is of another faith OR tries to talk them out of their Christian beliefs. THey, for the most part, choose to obey the secular laws than what is in their bibles on matters such as these. In contrast, in SOME Muslim countries where Koran based Sharia law is in effect, one could lose their lives for trying to deconvert a Muslim or for preaching some other faith because secular law is NOT the order of their day. Rather, it is more Koranic law.


Very nice post, well actually better than nice an excellent post.

Only issue I have with it is part of the last paragraph.

Quote:
For the Christian today, living in SECULAR societies, there are consequences for murdering someone just because another person in their family is of another faith OR tries to talk them out of their Christian beliefs. THey, for the most part, choose to obey the secular laws than what is in their bibles on matters such as these. In contrast, in SOME Muslim countries where Koran based Sharia law is in effect, one could lose their lives for trying to deconvert a Muslim or for preaching some other faith because secular law is NOT the order of their day. Rather, it is more Koranic law.
Two misconception the.

Shariah law is not from the Qur'an. Islamic Jurisprudence began finalizing into the 4 current School of law about 200 years after the death of Muhammad. While it is true Sharia can not contradict what is in the Qur'an, Much of Shariah is not in the Qur'an especially the criminal laws.

No Nation today is under actual Sharia, although some nations call their laws Shariaa.
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Old 12-10-2015, 07:42 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,734 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
In the Bible, we find this:

If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you."

If a Christian today reads this and follows it, would he be MORE obedient to the Bible or would he be disobeying what his holy book commands him to do? Now this passage is straightforward. The entire context of the passage is about resisting and/or removing members of the community who try to entice other members to follow other gods.

Well, most of today's Christians would not even consider such a thing (even if they think it). Others are not even aware the passage is on their bibles. Those who actually know it exists and would be troubled with such passages, apply apologetics and fall back on the "that was under the law and Christians are NOT obligated to follow the law" apologetic loophole which, really, is NOT a unanimous conclusion in the New Testament. So, again, which Christian would be the "True" Christian? The one who would follow the passage above to the tee OR the Christian who side steps it with all kinds of excuses or just ignorance of the passage?

This is what Continuum is, I believe, trying to get at. ISIS followers find justification for their evils in the very same book Woodrow finds peaceful mandates. Muslims like Woodrow and modern day Christians, find ways to rationalize away or skirt around or DIRECT orders or examples found in their holy books. In fact, contents are sometimes contradictory and vague and allows for these dual or wide open interpretations.

For the Christian today, living in SECULAR societies, there are consequences for murdering someone just because another person in their family is of another faith OR tries to talk them out of their Christian beliefs. THey, for the most part, choose to obey the secular laws than what is in their bibles on matters such as these. In contrast, in SOME Muslim countries where Koran based Sharia law is in effect, one could lose their lives for trying to deconvert a Muslim or for preaching some other faith because secular law is NOT the order of their day. Rather, it is more Koranic law.
I agree with you on most of this.

Here's a big difference:
"The Bible (from Koine Greek τὰ βιβλία, tà biblía, "the books") is a collection of texts sacred in Judaism and Christianity. It is an example of a collection of scriptures written at different times by different authors in different locations. "

"Muslims believe the Quran was verbally revealed by God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (Jibril),[4][5] gradually over a period of approximately 23 years, beginning on 22 December 609 CE,[6] when Muhammad was 40, and concluding in 632, the year of his death."

Both from wiki.

Direct word from god leaves no wiggle room. Where are the peaceful mandates in the Quran? From what I have studied, there are none. The few that were written in Muhammed's early years were abrogated by later verses. The reverse is true of the bible. The hateful verses, like yours above, are almost all in the old testament and the new testament is full of love your neighbor and turn the other cheek.

Then you have Muhammed himself as the perfect example. He raped, had sex with a child, murdered, owned and traded slaves, sold women, demanded hate and terrorism, etc. Some example. Compare that to Jesus.

Also, look at history. Yup, the Christians did some evil things, but Muslims take the prize. The crusades started as retaliation for MANY Muslim invasions.

And all the verses about the sadistic torture Allah will be doing to disbelievers! Good grief, that goes on ad nauseum.

But here's the big question: Are there really good Muslims? Woodrow firmly believes that Allah should torture for all eternity the disbelievers (you and me) because we made the wrong choice. His statement:
"as for all disbelievers going to hell. I think it is sad that they choose to do so. but the choice is there own. It is through their own decisions and choices that they choose to go to hell. Every person that ends up in hell is perfectly aware that they were not 'Sent" there. They knew they had the choice between heaven and hell and they chose freely and with knowledge."

He also called it love that Allah gave us this choice.

Woodrow knows what is in the Quran and what Muhammed did. He chooses to defend evil over and over.

No good person chooses to follow an evil ideology. If Jesus did the things that Muhammed did, if the new testament was full of hate and Christians were doing what Muslims are doing, would you give them a pass and be thinking there are good Christians?

Also, I don't think someone who does not know even the basics of Islam is a Muslim.
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Old 12-10-2015, 08:26 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,106 times
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Woodrow LI, Nice to see you brother, are you a revert? (May Peace,Blessings and Mercy of Allah be upon you and your family),
I was wondering that this is Islam section and almost all threads are from non-muslims few muslims ?

They have no idea how we feel with the knowledge that ISIS is far away from Islam and they present themselves as muslims. Allah may curse them or guide them to the true Islam.

Quote:
juju33312
then you have Muhammed himself as the perfect example. He raped, had sex with a child, murdered, owned and traded slaves, sold women, demanded hate and terrorism, etc. Some example.
Brother none of this happened, may be its your lack of knowledge about Islam or you just pick the hadiths or Quranic verses out of context. if it was really like you mentioned, I dont think there would have been 1.6 billion Muslims and still fastest growing religion in the west.
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Old 12-10-2015, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
Woodrow LI, Nice to see you brother, are you a revert? (May Peace,Blessings and Mercy of Allah be upon you and your family),
I was wondering that this is Islam section and almost all threads are from non-muslims few muslims ?

They have no idea how we feel with the knowledge that ISIS is far away from Islam and they present themselves as muslims. Allah may curse them or guide them to the true Islam.



Brother none of this happened, may be its your lack of knowledge about Islam or you just pick the hadiths or Quranic verses out of context. if it was really like you mentioned, I dont think there would have been 1.6 billion Muslims and still fastest growing religion in the west.
Shukran Ahki, Jaxakallah Khair, (Thank you my Brother, May Allah grant you greater blessings)

I reverted in 2005 when I was 65 years old.

You are correct many Non-Muslim do not understand how far from Islam ISIS has gone. Many that post here believe ISIS represents Islam.
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Old 12-10-2015, 08:55 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,915,918 times
Reputation: 1354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Very nice post, well actually better than nice an excellent post.

Only issue I have with it is part of the last paragraph.



Two misconception the.

Shariah law is not from the Qur'an. Islamic Jurisprudence began finalizing into the 4 current School of law about 200 years after the death of Muhammad. While it is true Sharia can not contradict what is in the Qur'an, Much of Shariah is not in the Qur'an especially the criminal laws.

No Nation today is under actual Sharia, although some nations call their laws Shariaa.
Ok, so it is not FROM the Koran, but are some of those laws based on items/examples in the Koran?
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Old 12-10-2015, 09:01 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,915,918 times
Reputation: 1354
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I agree with you on most of this.

Here's a big difference:
"The Bible (from Koine Greek τὰ βιβλία, tà biblía, "the books") is a collection of texts sacred in Judaism and Christianity. It is an example of a collection of scriptures written at different times by different authors in different locations. "

"Muslims believe the Quran was verbally revealed by God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (Jibril),[4][5] gradually over a period of approximately 23 years, beginning on 22 December 609 CE,[6] when Muhammad was 40, and concluding in 632, the year of his death."

Both from wiki.

Direct word from god leaves no wiggle room. Where are the peaceful mandates in the Quran? From what I have studied, there are none. The few that were written in Muhammed's early years were abrogated by later verses. The reverse is true of the bible. The hateful verses, like yours above, are almost all in the old testament and the new testament is full of love your neighbor and turn the other cheek.

Then you have Muhammed himself as the perfect example. He raped, had sex with a child, murdered, owned and traded slaves, sold women, demanded hate and terrorism, etc. Some example. Compare that to Jesus.

Also, look at history. Yup, the Christians did some evil things, but Muslims take the prize. The crusades started as retaliation for MANY Muslim invasions.

And all the verses about the sadistic torture Allah will be doing to disbelievers! Good grief, that goes on ad nauseum.

But here's the big question: Are there really good Muslims? Woodrow firmly believes that Allah should torture for all eternity the disbelievers (you and me) because we made the wrong choice. His statement:
"as for all disbelievers going to hell. I think it is sad that they choose to do so. but the choice is there own. It is through their own decisions and choices that they choose to go to hell. Every person that ends up in hell is perfectly aware that they were not 'Sent" there. They knew they had the choice between heaven and hell and they chose freely and with knowledge."

He also called it love that Allah gave us this choice.

Woodrow knows what is in the Quran and what Muhammed did. He chooses to defend evil over and over.

No good person chooses to follow an evil ideology. If Jesus did the things that Muhammed did, if the new testament was full of hate and Christians were doing what Muslims are doing, would you give them a pass and be thinking there are good Christians?

Also, I don't think someone who does not know even the basics of Islam is a Muslim.
You have, apparently, followed Woodrow more than I so I am not sure about his personal beliefs. That said, you are correct in what you say, but while that explanation is standard to many Christians, there are quite a few who also believe the words of the bible were "God-breathed" right into the writer's ear even if there were multiple writers in different places over a period of time. As a result, some Christians believe the words in the bible are the living, breathing word of their god much like a Muslim would believe about his holy book. Like the ISIS folks, THOSE Christians are the potentially crazy ones.
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Old 12-10-2015, 09:03 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,915,918 times
Reputation: 1354
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
In the Bible, we find this:

If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you."

If a Christian today reads this and follows it, would he be MORE obedient to the Bible or would he be disobeying what his holy book commands him to do? Now this passage is straightforward. The entire context of the passage is about resisting and/or removing members of the community who try to entice other members to follow other gods.

Well, most of today's Christians would not even consider such a thing (even if they think it). Others are not even aware the passage is on their bibles. Those who actually know it exists and would be troubled with such passages, apply apologetics and fall back on the "that was under the law and Christians are NOT obligated to follow the law" apologetic loophole which, really, is NOT a unanimous conclusion in the New Testament. So, again, which Christian would be the "True" Christian? The one who would follow the passage above to the tee OR the Christian who side steps it with all kinds of excuses or just ignorance of the passage?

This is what Continuum is, I believe, trying to get at. ISIS followers find justification for their evils in the very same book Woodrow finds peaceful mandates. Muslims like Woodrow and modern day Christians, find ways to rationalize away or skirt around or DIRECT orders or examples found in their holy books. In fact, contents are sometimes contradictory and vague and allows for these dual or wide open interpretations.

For the Christian today, living in SECULAR societies, there are consequences for murdering someone just because another person in their family is of another faith OR tries to talk them out of their Christian beliefs. THey, for the most part, choose to obey the secular laws than what is in their bibles on matters such as these. In contrast, in SOME Muslim countries where Koran based Sharia law is in effect, one could lose their lives for trying to deconvert a Muslim or for preaching some other faith because secular law is NOT the order of their day. Rather, it is more Koranic law.
I failed to mention where that biblical passage came from. It is from Deuteronomy 13:6-11.
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Old 12-10-2015, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Oklahoma USA
1,196 posts, read 843,244 times
Reputation: 4389
Hello Muslim Friends!

I always enjoy reading this discussions because they are so informative. (I'm Unitarian Deist).

I tend to think that what Daesh is to Islam, Christian Identity is to Christianity.

Very few Americans or westerners of any kind have actually heard of Christian Identity, but it is a racist terrorist cult that has existed in the US for over 50 years, and its adherents have committed many murders, especially through bombings.

Here is some basic information about them:

Christian Identity

Christians who claim Daesh represents Islam might benefit from learning about Christian Identity. It's here, it's real, it's deeply entrenched, and it continues to commit acts of terror. Mainstream Christians claim that Identity adherents are not really Christian in their actions, and I concur. But Identity adherents -- like Daesh -- quote voluminous scriptures, and claim to be "the" purest expression of their faith.
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