U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-10-2015, 09:17 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
Reputation: 435

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
Brother none of this happened, may be its your lack of knowledge about Islam or you just pick the hadiths or Quranic verses out of context.
Really? Then please post these verses andprovide the context:

Sahih Muslim 3371

Bukhari vol. 7, #65

Bukhari, volume 5, #234

Sahih Muslim 5917

Sahih Muslim 4209

Tell me what happened to Asma bint Marwan. Why did Muhammed have her slaughtered?

Explain the context here:

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

How many times in the Quran does 'Allah' make statements like this:

"then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers....And those who disbelieve and deny Our signs - those will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally....And for the disbelievers is a humiliating punishment...... And for the disbelievers is a painful punishment......Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - upon them will be the curse of Allah and of the angels and the people, all together,....And Allah does not like every sinning disbeliever......Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, ...Indeed, those who disbelieve - never will their wealth or their children avail them against Allah at all. And it is they who are fuel for the Fire.....“for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

How many verses of hate are in the Quran?

Do you agree with Woodrow that disbelievers in Allah deserve never ending and horrible torture as allah demands above?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-10-2015, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,314,380 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Ok, so it is not FROM the Koran, but are some of those laws based on items/examples in the Koran?
There are no actual laws spelled out in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not so much an instruction manual but rather reasons of how and whys. Very few things in the Qur'an could be considered commandments.

There are 4 different disciplines (Madhabs) of Shariah. A person or government that follows shariah must choose one and only one Madhab.

There are quite a few other things called Sharia but are not legitimate Sunni Madhabs. About 85% of the World's Muslims are Sunni.

The laws in the Madhabs are based on the following Authorities. using the Madhab I am most familiar with, (Hanafi) in order of Authority those are

Qur'an
Sunnah
Logic
Consensus of the Ulemah
Local Needs
Local Tradition

No Authority can over ride any above it.

Some things that get called Shariah but have nothing to do with Shariah are:

Wahhabi
Jafa'ari
Ismaili
Laws of a Monarchy

The Wahhabi of Pakistan and Saudi and the Jafa'ari of Iran are what most non-Muslims think Shariah is.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2015, 09:47 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,112 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Really? Then please post these verses andprovide the context:

Sahih Muslim 3371

Bukhari vol. 7, #65

Bukhari, volume 5, #234

Sahih Muslim 5917

Sahih Muslim 4209

Tell me what happened to Asma bint Marwan. Why did Muhammed have her slaughtered?

Explain the context here:

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

How many times in the Quran does 'Allah' make statements like this:

"then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers....And those who disbelieve and deny Our signs - those will be companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally....And for the disbelievers is a humiliating punishment...... And for the disbelievers is a painful punishment......Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - upon them will be the curse of Allah and of the angels and the people, all together,....And Allah does not like every sinning disbeliever......Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, ...Indeed, those who disbelieve - never will their wealth or their children avail them against Allah at all. And it is they who are fuel for the Fire.....“for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

How many verses of hate are in the Quran?

Do you agree with Woodrow that disbelievers in Allah deserve never ending and horrible torture as allah demands above?
first of all my internet connection is messed up and I will explain your misconception in a moment InshaAllah but you have to be fair. One thing i want you to know that just like any other question, the answer will always a bit long but dont worry i will try to make it brief and if I give you the reasonable explanation then be fair brother, its not a win or lose situation. I have no such intention towards you and I just want to clear your misconception nothing else. May God Almighty guide you to the true path
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2015, 09:50 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,112 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
The Wahhabi of Pakistan and Saudi and the Jafa'ari of Iran are what most non-Muslims think Shariah is
Brother there is no Shariah in Pakistan. as far as Saudi is concern they practice the part of Shariah and most of their laws are not according to Shariah laws. Iran has nothing to do with Shariah at all
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2015, 10:07 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
Brother there is no Shariah in Pakistan. as far as Saudi is concern they practice the part of Shariah and most of their laws are not according to Shariah laws. Iran has nothing to do with Shariah at all
"After the 1979 overthrow of the Pahlavi dynasty by the Islamic Revolution, the system was greatly altered. The legal code is now based on Islamic law or sharia, although many aspects of civil law have been retained, and it is integrated into a civil law legal system.....According to some Iranian officials, the judiciary of Iran does not follow Sharia law, but it is civil law ratified by the Parliament.[citation needed] However, all agree that multiple aspects of sharia law are observed in the legal system.

Although Article 2 of the constitution the Islamic Republic states that the Republic "is a system based on belief in ... the One God ... His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate", according to one source, the new laws of the Islamic Republic "modify the sharia" (i.e. what Muslims believe is God's legislation) "in three significant ways."[21]

They give the state the "ultimate say" over the death penalty by allowing a new High Court to review death sentences passed by lower magistrates." In contrast, sharia in its traditional form, had no appeals system and gave local judges final say.[21] While in lesser sentences, the judges verdict would be final, in more serious crimes, the sentence could be appealed to the Provincial Appeals Court. In a capital crime, it would be appealed to the Supreme Court of Cassation. Sometimes criminals get multiple appeals that last for years, depending upon the evidence against them along with "reasonable doubt". Retrials can be ordered, typically in the same court that convicted the prisoner.
Laws allow circumstantial evidence to be used in deciding a case "under the rubric of 'the judge's reasoning.'"[21]
The legal system has introduced long-term imprisonment - which was also traditionally not used in sharia law - under 'discretionary punishment' (Tazir). Traditionalist judges, however, "continue to prefer corporal punishments ..." in sentencing.[21] In 2008, the then Head of Judiciary Ayatollah Hashemi Shahroudi (considered a moderate) asked judges to carry out more corporal punishment and less imprisonment, because "long term imprisonment is expensive, is not effective, and prevents criminals from reintegrating into society"......After the 1979 Islamic Revolution, all banks had to follow Sharia banking procedures, including the forbidding of interest (riba) and the forbidding of usury......After the election of the first Majles of the Islamic Republic, the Majles and the Guardian Council quickly codified important features of the sharia law by passing two landmark bills[22] in July 1982:[10].......Qanon-e Qisas (Retribution Law) This law codified other aspects of the sharia. It subdivided crimes into hadd - those against God - and those against fellow beings, especially other families. Some punishments are mandatory; others, discretionary." And more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judici...tion_to_sharia


Pakistan:

During the reign of General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq, elements of Islamic Sharia law were incorporated into Pakistani law, leading to the institution of a Federal Shariat Court (FSC). In some Federally and Provincially Administered Tribal Areas [(FATA) and (PATA)], a system of law employing traditional methods persists at the local level. At this informal level, disputes are settled by a jirga, a council of tribal elders.[1][2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Pakistan

". Zia ul Haq introduced Sharia courts and made far reaching changes in the criminal justice system.[117] Articles 203a to 203j of the constitution establish a sharia court with the power to judge any law or government actions to be against Islam, and to review court cases for adherence to Islamic law. The penal code includes elements of sharia.[118] Under article 5, section 2 of the Ordinance No. VII of 1979, whoever is guilty of zina, "if he or she is a muhsan, be stoned to death at a public place; or if he or she is not a mushan, be punished, at a public place, with whipping numbering one hundred stripes".[119] Under a 2006 law, rape cases can be heard under civil as well as Islamic law.[120]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applic...y_country#Asia
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2015, 10:32 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,112 times
Reputation: 18
juju33312 brother,

there has been alot of questioning around a hadeeth found in Sunan Abu Dawud 2:2150 or Sunan Abi Dawud 2155 regarding its content. The issue has stemmed around a translation of the hadeeth collection. The issue stems round the following section of the hadeeth:

" Some of the Companions of Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So, Allaah the exalted sent down the Qur’anic verse... "
But the confusion is easily resolved when we return back to the arabic text of the hadeeth in question.

The section that has been translated above is the following:
أَصْحَابِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم تَحَرَّجُوا مِنْ غِشْيَانِهِنَّ مِنْ أَجْلِ أَزْوَاجِهِنَّ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ فَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى فِي ذَلِكَ

The arabic text above contains no reference to "in the presence of". These words are simply not present.

Infact this hadeeth, with the same wording, has been recorded in Saheeh Muslim. take a look at the popular translation of this hadeeth:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace te upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:
" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)" (i. e. they were lawful for them when their 'Idda period came to an end). [2]

Notice here the same wording of the section in question with the translation being:

أَصْحَابِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم تَحَرَّجُوا مِنْ غِشْيَانِهِنَّ مِنْ أَجْلِ أَزْوَاجِهِنَّ مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ فَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ فِي ذَلِكَ
The Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace te upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that.

We can instantly see that there has been a mistake in the translation of the hadeeth in Sunan Abu Dawud.

This is further emphasised by the Translation of Sunan Abu Dawud by Yasir Qadhi and published by Darussalam. It reads:

Abu Sa'eed Al-KhudrI narrated that the Messenger of Allah sent an expedition to Awas on the Day of Uunain, and they met the enemy, fought them, and won the battle. They captured some slaves, but some of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah felt uncomfortable in having relations with them because of their pagan husbands. At this, Allah revealed: "And chaste, free women, except for those whom your right hand possesses..."meaning that they are allowed for you after their waiting periods have finished. [3]

To sum up. The translation of the Sunan Abu Dawud hadeeth contains a grave mistake. The Arabic text doesnt contain the phrase "in the presence of". This is further shown by the translation of Saheeh Muslim, which contains the hadeeth with the same wording, and the translation of Sunan Abu Dawud provided by Darussalam.

you mentioned Quranic verses about punishing the disbelievers in hell fire and you believe this is violent which is not because in Islam the biggest sin is associating partners with Allah and disbelievers will be punished but being Muslim is not a ticket to heaven so there will be Muslims as well who will be sinners. Now lets have a look at bible in this regard:

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Matthew 13:50
50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

there are lots of verses in bible, I only mentioned few. Now what is wrong with these verses, I think they are absolutely fair just like the verses in the Quran about punishing Disbelievers and sinners ?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2015, 10:43 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,112 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
". Zia ul Haq introduced Sharia courts and made far reaching changes in the criminal justice system.[117] Articles 203a to 203j of the constitution establish a sharia court with the power to judge any law or government actions to be against Islam, and to review court cases for adherence to Islamic law. The penal code includes elements of sharia.[118] Under article 5, section 2 of the Ordinance No. VII of 1979, whoever is guilty of zina, "if he or she is a muhsan, be stoned to death at a public place; or if he or she is not a mushan, be punished, at a public place, with whipping numbering one hundred stripes".[119] Under a 2006 law, rape cases can be heard under civil as well as Islamic law.[120]"
I live in Pakistan and I dont even know that Pakistan is practicing Shariah laws lol.
Quote:
government actions to be against Islam
yes constitution of Pakistan has the article that no law will be made which is against Islam what is wrong with that?

By the way I posted reply to your argument about Hadith of abu Dawood and Verses of the Quran but my post is not showing up, is that a problem ?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2015, 11:07 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,916,819 times
Reputation: 1354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are no actual laws spelled out in the Qur'an. The Qur'an is not so much an instruction manual but rather reasons of how and whys. Very few things in the Qur'an could be considered commandments.

There are 4 different disciplines (Madhabs) of Shariah. A person or government that follows shariah must choose one and only one Madhab.

There are quite a few other things called Sharia but are not legitimate Sunni Madhabs. About 85% of the World's Muslims are Sunni.

The laws in the Madhabs are based on the following Authorities. using the Madhab I am most familiar with, (Hanafi) in order of Authority those are

Qur'an
Sunnah
Logic
Consensus of the Ulemah
Local Needs
Local Tradition

No Authority can over ride any above it.

Some things that get called Shariah but have nothing to do with Shariah are:

Wahhabi
Jafa'ari
Ismaili
Laws of a Monarchy

The Wahhabi of Pakistan and Saudi and the Jafa'ari of Iran are what most non-Muslims think Shariah is.
So is it safe to say that these laws are more regional and social than they are religious? In other words, they are more rooted in custom? I ask because, yes, I do realize honor killings and the likes would not be considered something mandated in the Koran, but wasn't the Koran fashioned WITHIN a community that share similar regional customs regarding justice, war, slavery, relationships (as they were in that day)
and so on?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2015, 11:24 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
I live in Pakistan and I dont even know that Pakistan is practicing Shariah laws lol.


yes constitution of Pakistan has the article that no law will be made which is against Islam what is wrong with that?

By the way I posted reply to your argument about Hadith of abu Dawood and Verses of the Quran but my post is not showing up, is that a problem ?
"The Federal Shariat Court (FSC) of Pakistan is a court which has the power to examine and determine whether the laws of the country comply with Shari'a law."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Shariat_Court

I don't run the site, but there is no reason I can think of that a particular post would not show up. This one did.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2015, 11:55 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,112 times
Reputation: 18
role of Shariat court is to make sure that there is no law in the constitution which is against Islam like gay marriages are against Islamic laws so no one can make amendment in constitution for gay marriages but thats not mean that the Shariah laws are in practice, honestly speaking, practically they are doing nothing and have no powers to prohibit any laws i.e Ribah (Interest) is Haraam in Islam and Pakistani banking system is based on Ribah which is against Islamic laws and there are some others as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top