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Old 12-10-2015, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
Brother there is no Shariah in Pakistan. as far as Saudi is concern they practice the part of Shariah and most of their laws are not according to Shariah laws. Iran has nothing to do with Shariah at all
Salaam Ahki,

I agree completely. But you will find that many of the Muslims that post on this Forum are convinced that Saudi, Iran and Pakistan are Sharia. I have been fighting that concept for at least 5 years. But, my words are not believed. They are still convinced that Saudi, Iran and Pakistan are following Sharia. Now they are adding in ISIS.
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Old 12-10-2015, 12:14 PM
 
88 posts, read 35,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Salaam Ahki,

I agree completely. But you will find that many of the Muslims that post on this Forum are convinced that Saudi, Iran and Pakistan are Sharia. I have been fighting that concept for at least 5 years. But, my words are not believed. They are still convinced that Saudi, Iran and Pakistan are following Sharia. Now they are adding in ISIS.
Walaikum Asalam Brother, yes i agree, Muslims who believe that Shariah is in Saudi or iran or Pakistan are actually dont know Shariah at all. sometime people actually believe what they want to believe no matter how much evidence you gave them and in western world anything bad happens in any Islamic Country or anywhere in the world by a Muslim they link that to Islam which is totally insane. I think western Media played a big role to create such perception after 9/11. When a Muslim do a crime they make it Headlines with (Muslim robbed or killed someone this is what Islam teaches) and when Non-muslim done something like that then only a brief ticker with(John or wilson robbed or killed someone)

Last edited by int007; 12-10-2015 at 12:47 PM..
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Old 12-10-2015, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
14,900 posts, read 5,002,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am saying I can not say they are not Muslim. A Muslim has to practice Islam to the best of their ability and knowledge. Perfection is not expected or required. I can not say the Members of ISIS are un-Islamic as they may be practicing to the best of their ability and Knowledge. But I can and will say they are doing many things I believe are not Islamic, such as the killing of innocent people, killing by fire, destroying places that are holy to other people, mistreating prisoners, trying to establish a Caliphate etc.
It's like speaking to my mother about Christian history and their many atrocities, she wont accept any guilt from our past and instead says,'' They weren't true Christians,'' but it don't work that way especially for the people killed in the name of religion, they know a Christian killed them or if a Muslim killed them.


It just is what it is.
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Old 12-10-2015, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
So is it safe to say that these laws are more regional and social than they are religious? In other words, they are more rooted in custom? I ask because, yes, I do realize honor killings and the likes would not be considered something mandated in the Koran, but wasn't the Koran fashioned WITHIN a community that share similar regional customs regarding justice, war, slavery, relationships (as they were in that day)
and so on?
The Hanafi Madhab is the most flexible and for that reason can differ in community to community, at least in terms of Criminal law. The Civil and Familys laws are virtually identical under every Madhab. How ever since civil laws pertain primarily to oersonal interactions and relationships, they essentially are not under state control. Provided they do not violate any Criminal laws.

Like a Muslim is not supposed to pay or collect interest. Therefore if we are to be shariah compliant we can not use most banking systems. We are not violating any state laws if we choose to use onlu LaRiba (No Interest) banks.

Yes Honor Killings are very common among Pashtun and Punjab's of India.Afghanistan and Pakistan not only among Muslims but also among non-Muslims.

In the pre-Islamic era in Arabia it was very common among the Arabs, not Just the Pagan Arabs but also the Christian and Jewish Arabs of Mecca and Medina.

Honor killing has and does occur in every culture in the Westen world it evolved to "Duels" that persisted well into the 20th Century but it has declined. Pakistan and India currently have the highest rate of (dis)Honor killings in the world. They are absolutly forbidden in Islam, Judaism, Sikh and Hinduism but still occur at a very high rate among the Pashtun and Punjab of any faith in India, Pakistan and to a slightly less degree in Afghanistan.
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Old 12-10-2015, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
It's like speaking to my mother about Christian history and their many atrocities, she wont accept any guilt from our past and instead says,'' They weren't true Christians,'' but it don't work that way especially for the people killed in the name of religion, they know a Christian killed them or if a Muslim killed them.


It just is what it is.
True.

However,a Muslim does not have the luxury of saying any one is not a Muslim. We do not know who is a muslim and must accept every person that says he is Muslim as being being Muslim. However, we can say a peron's action does not appear to be Islamic to us and give our reason why we believe it is not.
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Old 12-10-2015, 02:17 PM
 
Location: New York City
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A question I have asked Christians over the years goes like this:

If you lived back in the days, say, Moses or Joshua and you were called to order to "hear the word of the Lord" and you were asked to go and, say, join in a massacre of various Canaanite tribes or the Midianites (assuming these things actually happened), would YOU have taken part?

Is it safe to say, that was just the way it was back then and call it a day, but as civilized societies today we KNOW better, NOT necessarily because of holy books but because of secular and civil laws which forbids pillaging and plunder, wife grabbing, excusable rapes, murdering people of other beliefs, etc? As a result, we are NOT expected to emulate or even APPLY the way of life back then to our modern world? Was it Thomas Jefferson who said that each generation or every few generations should crush up the old constitution and draft up new ones that are reflective of THE society they shape?
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Old 12-10-2015, 03:10 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
first of all my internet connection is messed up and I will explain your misconception in a moment InshaAllah but you have to be fair. One thing i want you to know that just like any other question, the answer will always a bit long but dont worry i will try to make it brief and if I give you the reasonable explanation then be fair brother, its not a win or lose situation. I have no such intention towards you and I just want to clear your misconception nothing else. May God Almighty guide you to the true path
Waiting......
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Old 12-10-2015, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
A question I have asked Christians over the years goes like this:

If you lived back in the days, say, Moses or Joshua and you were called to order to "hear the word of the Lord" and you were asked to go and, say, join in a massacre of various Canaanite tribes or the Midianites (assuming these things actually happened), would YOU have taken part?

Is it safe to say, that was just the way it was back then and call it a day, but as civilized societies today we KNOW better, NOT necessarily because of holy books but because of secular and civil laws which forbids pillaging and plunder, wife grabbing, excusable rapes, murdering people of other beliefs, etc? As a result, we are NOT expected to emulate or even APPLY the way of life back then to our modern world? Was it Thomas Jefferson who said that each generation or every few generations should crush up the old constitution and draft up new ones that are reflective of THE society they shape?
The only difference between now and then is we have sanitized killing and devised mechanical means to do it. We have also changed the terminology, we no longer kill the enemy, we neutralize them and liberate oppressed people. We do not kill innocent bystanders, we have collateral damage.

We are still as brutal as our ancestors only the terminology and methods have changed. Plus we now have some fantastic uniforms.

Is there really any difference in joining a Prophet in war or obeying the orders of a President or other Head of State?
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Old 12-10-2015, 04:50 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The only difference between now and then is we have sanitized killing and devised mechanical means to do it. We have also changed the terminology, we no longer kill the enemy, we neutralize them and liberate oppressed people. We do not kill innocent bystanders, we have collateral damage.

We are still as brutal as our ancestors only the terminology and methods have changed. Plus we now have some fantastic uniforms.

Is there really any difference in joining a Prophet in war or obeying the orders of a President or other Head of State?
Those are some GREAT points except, today, at least in the civilized world, we have choices and our leaders CANNOT tell the people that a war is commissioned by God OR by some prophet. We cannot go to war on an explicit religious pretext as in the days of yore when it was common for kings and prophets to lead nations into war on behalf of their various deities because THOSE people over there needed a learnin' or THEY were bad, impure, corrupt, evil, demonic people who needed to be purged from the face of the earth.

That being said, of course our leaders trick us into excuses for war and in order to create the necessary armies, we come up with all kinds of enticing reasons to join the military that does NOT include any of the possible gore in the sales pitch. Still, if Obama, Merkel, Trudeau or some other western leader took to a platform to say that God told them to go "spread a particular" ideology or that God told them to go massacre some people because they were pagans, as a pretext to steal their lands, women, their resources and acquire slaves, they would not spend another day in office EVEN if there were dirt bags who would approve their message.
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Old 12-10-2015, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Those are some GREAT points except, today, at least in the civilized world, we have choices and our leaders CANNOT tell the people that a war is commissioned by God OR by some prophet. We cannot go to war on an explicit religious pretext as in the days of yore when it was common for kings and prophets to lead nations into war on behalf of their various deities because THOSE people over there needed a learnin' or THEY were bad, impure, corrupt, evil, demonic people who needed to be purged from the face of the earth.

That being said, of course our leaders trick us into excuses for war and in order to create the necessary armies, we come up with all kinds of enticing reasons to join the military that does NOT include any of the possible gore in the sales pitch. Still, if Obama, Merkel, Trudeau or some other western leader took to a platform to say that God told them to go "spread a particular" ideology or that God told them to go massacre some people because they were pagans, as a pretext to steal their lands, women, their resources and acquire slaves, they would not spend another day in office EVEN if there were dirt bags who would approve their message.
However, there have been politicians who have convinced people that specific groups pose a threat and need to be destroyed. Hitler did that with the Jews and other people that meet his "Standards" for being a German. He also used the creation of a common enemy to unite Germany into supporting Nazism. The same thing may be happening in North Korea.

.While some despots do use religion as a tool and it can be quite effective, that does not necessarily mean it is a fault of the religion. It takes several otyer factrs such as:, a very intelligent but evil leader, an ignorant populace, a disaster or calamity that can be used as a focal point. Which is what may be the forces behind ISIS.
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