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Old 12-11-2015, 06:27 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
well if someone die in the battle field will go to heaven but not every battle field. only if someone attacks you or in self defense. Its not mean that every battle fought by Muslims is just, it should be just and in self defense and all religions say the same for their soldiers and where ISIS fits in here?. God Almighty Says in Quran:

And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know. Quran 9:6

This hadith proves nothing, I think you are just copy / pasting from Anti-Islamic website without even having a good look at it,
I think I lost some brain cells on this one
I knew you wouldn't post those verses or honestly answer the questions. Muslims never do.

Let's look at 9:5 again:

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Kill disbelievers unless they convert to Islam.

Look at this:

But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know.

Demand for people to convert to Islam. Or else:

And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.

And actually, it was Muhammed who broke HIS oath (treaty of Hudaibiya).

Also:

"If I take an oath to do something and later on I find something else better than the first one, then I do what is better and make expiation for my oath." (Bukhari 78:618)

Who said that?

"The Prophet said: 'War is deceit'." (Bukhari 52:269)

Let's get to the bottom of this:

Can you say that Muhammed was evil to have sex with a little child, own and trade slaves, encourage his men to mass rape women, mass rape women, hit a child, slaughter people for making fun of him?

Is Allah wrong to endlessly and horribly torture the disbelievers...BILLIONS of souls?
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Old 12-11-2015, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
May be for you but Hadiths are most important for Muslims and they are part of Islam. Non-Muslims use certain hadiths for criticism on Islam and if we explain something from Hadith they still make excuses.
Btw, I do not support the Quran-Only group totally.


Note this logic and imperative:
1. The principle is whatever a Muslim act, reason and even think [note Allah can read what is in your 'breast'], it must comply with the words of Allah as in the Quran [MGA-610] and no where else.
2. The Ahadiths are thought out and reasoned by Muslims scholars.
3. Therefore the Ahadiths must comply with the Quran, i.e. words of Allah and nothing else.
Would you dispute the above syllogism [logic]?


The above is the Islamic principles of Allah. If any one deviate then they are going against the words of Allah and will punished on Judgment Day.


It is true non-Muslims use certain hadiths to criticize Islam. That is because those Muslims insist the whole lot of the Ahadiths are the sayings of Muhammad whom all Muslims must obeyed as ordered by Allah in the Quran.
[I have argued 'obey' Muhammad is supposed to be in the restricted sense]
Thus they [depending on which Madhab] claimed the whole lot of the Ahadiths are part of Islam. See the following thread;
24:54 Obey Allah and obey the Messenger
Now, if a Muslim claimed the whole lot of the Ahadiths are part of Islam, then they have to face whatever criticisms of certain hadiths from non-Muslims. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.


The Quran-Only Muslims who do not accept the Ahadiths do not have to face the very obvious negatives and deviations of the Ahadiths.


The related truth is my logic above is the most valid.
Whatever is in the Ahadiths must comply solely with the Quran to qualify as Islamic. Even if you at the present moment think and reason something that is novel [not in the Ahadiths], it can qualify as Islamic if what your thought and act are in compliance with Allah's words as in the Quran.
This mean that those Muslims who accept the whole lot of the Ahadiths, where many hadiths are not in compliance with the Quran have deviated from Islam-proper and are liable to be punished by Allah on Judgment Day.

Quote:
Your argument about Quran 3:151 proves nothing it was revealed during the battle of Uhud

We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers. Quran:3:151

After Uhud, Abu Sufyan and the idolaters headed toward Mecca. But after they traversed a certain distance, they felt regret, saying: ‘Evil is that which we have done! We massacred them [Muslims] such that none of them remained except those who fled from the battlefield and then we left them alone. Go back and exterminate them’. But when they decided to do so, Allah, exalted is He, cast terror in their hearts which made them decide against what they had resolved to do. Allah, exalted is He, then revealed this verse.”

if you read the very next verse then its clear that it was revealed during the battle of Uhud

And Allah had certainly fulfilled His promise to you when you were killing the enemy by His permission until [the time] when you lost courage and fell to disputing about the order [given by the Prophet] and disobeyed after He had shown you that which you love. Among you are some who desire this world, and among you are some who desire the Hereafter. Then he turned you back from them [defeated] that He might test you. And He has already forgiven you, and Allah is the possessor of bounty for the believers. Quran 3:152

what is wrong with casting terror in the heart of people who were killing Muslims in battle
What is most important from the Quran is the eternal principle. The story behind the verses are merely there to facilitate one to understand the principle.
Therefore the "casting of terror on non-Muslims" is a generic principle for Muslims to react toward non-Muslims eternally. It is not meant only for the Battle of Uhud.


If you insist the 'casting of terror' is only applicable to Uhud, then what about the verses on modesty and coverings arising from the story that Muhammad was aroused from the nakedness [probably cleavage] of Zainab to the extent his use his position 'snatch' the wife of his adopted son.
One can argued the 'covering of bosom' was only for that particular time, situation and circumstances, thus not applicable to 2015 and thereafter.


The point is there are many stories introduced by [disputing] commentators beyond the Quran but they are there to facilitate the understanding of the relevant Islamic principles.


Quote:
what is wrong with casting terror in the heart of people who were killing Muslims in battle
It is common strategy in wars that opponents us the 'cast terror' strategy to win.
Firstly 'war' were inevitable in the olden day and even now, but war is one of the worst universal moral sin within humanity which should be eliminated as soon as possible.


Second, since war is such a terrible universal sin, the idea of war and its strategy of 'casting of terrors' should not have been included in a religious holy texts or even in an ideology as a way of life that is supposed to extend till eternity.


Third, the Quran exhort Muslims to fight in the way of Allah to defend Islam when the religion is threatened, hindered or oppressed. The problem is the very existence of non-Muslims is a threat to Islam. The terms that defined what is a threat to the religion are very vague, e.g. corruption, wronged, mischiefs that are loose and trigger SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and even Muslims, e.g. drawing of cartoons is a threat, the USA the great Satan even when the US went into another Islamic Nation to help them.

Quote:
for a reminder lets see what bible says
Deuteronomy 20:16
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
This is bad logical and rational thinking. I suggest you take a lesson on logic and its fallacy, in this case the Tu Quogue Fallacy.
Note referring to negative by some one else will not absolve your own crime.


Another critical point you need to note;
I have argued countless times, the Bible has more evil and violent laden verses [especially the OT] than the Quran.
However the NT [Christianity core book] has an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. 'love your enemies' 'give the other cheek and the likes.
The Quran do not has such an overriding limit but promote a no-holds-barred for violence on non-Muslims.

Quote:
Your argument about ISIS casting terror or whatever prove nothing in fact they are not only casting terror in Non-Muslims heart they are also killing and casting terror in Muslims heart as well
I have proven objectively the Muslims of ISIS are merely complying with the words of Allah as stated in the Quran [MGA-610AD] in promoting and defending Islam. Objectively, the Muslims of ISIS are very confident they have exercise their obligation in the contract [covenant] they have agreed with Allah and they will be well rewarded on Judgment Day.


If you are a genuine Muslim, ISIS will not kill you. Note in some of the terror acts, those who were able to quote certain verses from the Quran were allowed to go free.


When ISIS and other jihadists are casting terror and kill Muslims they deemed them as hypocrites or apostates, i.e. those who are partner and allies [awliya] of non-Muslims. There are many verses in the Quran, i.e. words of Allah that forbid Muslims to befriend [awliya = allies, partners, guardian] non-Muslims.


Btw, I am not supporting ISIS and their deeds. I am merely giving an objective view of what is really going on.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-11-2015 at 08:22 PM..
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Old 12-11-2015, 09:29 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Btw, I do not support the Quran-Only group totally.


Note this logic and imperative:
1. The principle is whatever a Muslim act, reason and even think [note Allah can read what is in your 'breast'], it must comply with the words of Allah as in the Quran [MGA-610] and no where else.
2. The Ahadiths are thought out and reasoned by Muslims scholars.
3. Therefore the Ahadiths must comply with the Quran, i.e. words of Allah and nothing else.
Would you dispute the above syllogism [logic]?


The above is the Islamic principles of Allah. If any one deviate then they are going against the words of Allah and will punished on Judgment Day.


It is true non-Muslims use certain hadiths to criticize Islam. That is because those Muslims insist the whole lot of the Ahadiths are the sayings of Muhammad whom all Muslims must obeyed as ordered by Allah in the Quran.
[I have argued 'obey' Muhammad is supposed to be in the restricted sense]
Thus they [depending on which Madhab] claimed the whole lot of the Ahadiths are part of Islam. See the following thread;
24:54 Obey Allah and obey the Messenger
Now, if a Muslim claimed the whole lot of the Ahadiths are part of Islam, then they have to face whatever criticisms of certain hadiths from non-Muslims. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.


The Quran-Only Muslims who do not accept the Ahadiths do not have to face the very obvious negatives and deviations of the Ahadiths.


The related truth is my logic above is the most valid.
Whatever is in the Ahadiths must comply solely with the Quran to qualify as Islamic. Even if you at the present moment think and reason something that is novel [not in the Ahadiths], it can qualify as Islamic if what your thought and act are in compliance with Allah's words as in the Quran.
This mean that those Muslims who accept the whole lot of the Ahadiths, where many hadiths are not in compliance with the Quran have deviated from Islam-proper and are liable to be punished by Allah on Judgment Day.

What is most important from the Quran is the eternal principle. The story behind the verses are merely there to facilitate one to understand the principle.
Therefore the "casting of terror on non-Muslims" is a generic principle for Muslims to react toward non-Muslims eternally. It is not meant only for the Battle of Uhud.


If you insist the 'casting of terror' is only applicable to Uhud, then what about the verses on modesty and coverings arising from the story that Muhammad was aroused from the nakedness [probably cleavage] of Zainab to the extent his use his position 'snatch' the wife of his adopted son.
One can argued the 'covering of bosom' was only for that particular time, situation and circumstances, thus not applicable to 2015 and thereafter.


The point is there are many stories introduced by [disputing] commentators beyond the Quran but they are there to facilitate the understanding of the relevant Islamic principles.


It is common strategy in wars that opponents us the 'cast terror' strategy to win.
Firstly 'war' were inevitable in the olden day and even now, but war is one of the worst universal moral sin within humanity which should be eliminated as soon as possible.


Second, since war is such a terrible universal sin, the idea of war and its strategy of 'casting of terrors' should not have been included in a religious holy texts or even in an ideology as a way of life that is supposed to extend till eternity.


Third, the Quran exhort Muslims to fight in the way of Allah to defend Islam when the religion is threatened, hindered or oppressed. The problem is the very existence of non-Muslims is a threat to Islam. The terms that defined what is a threat to the religion are very vague, e.g. corruption, wronged, mischiefs that are loose and trigger SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and even Muslims, e.g. drawing of cartoons is a threat, the USA the great Satan even when the US went into another Islamic Nation to help them.

This is bad logical and rational thinking. I suggest you take a lesson on logic and its fallacy, in this case the Tu Quogue Fallacy.
Note referring to negative by some one else will not absolve your own crime.


Another critical point you need to note;
I have argued countless times, the Bible has more evil and violent laden verses [especially the OT] than the Quran.
However the NT [Christianity core book] has an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. 'love your enemies' 'give the other cheek and the likes.
The Quran do not has such an overriding limit but promote a no-holds-barred for violence on non-Muslims.

I have proven objectively the Muslims of ISIS are merely complying with the words of Allah as stated in the Quran [MGA-610AD] in promoting and defending Islam. Objectively, the Muslims of ISIS are very confident they have exercise their obligation in the contract [covenant] they have agreed with Allah and they will be well rewarded on Judgment Day.


If you are a genuine Muslim, ISIS will not kill you. Note in some of the terror acts, those who were able to quote certain verses from the Quran were allowed to go free.


When ISIS and other jihadists are casting terror and kill Muslims they deemed them as hypocrites or apostates, i.e. those who are partner and allies [awliya] of non-Muslims. There are many verses in the Quran, i.e. words of Allah that forbid Muslims to befriend [awliya = allies, partners, guardian] non-Muslims.


Btw, I am not supporting ISIS and their deeds. I am merely giving an objective view of what is really going on.
I disagree with this and believe you will find so do many other Muslims

Quote:
What is most important from the Quran is the eternal principle. The story behind the verses are merely there to facilitate one to understand the principle.
Therefore the "casting of terror on non-Muslims" is a generic principle for Muslims to react toward non-Muslims eternally. It is not meant only for the Battle of Uhud.
The Qur'an is not a book about how to practice Islam, it is about the why. The methodology of performing Islam is found in the Ahadith, Sirat, Sunnah and the Madhabs.

Yes there are Qur'anis (Qur'an only Muslims) but even they will have to admit that the Qur'an does not explain how to pray, how to do Wadu or Ghusl, how to determine zakat, how to write a nikkah, how to obey the Pillars of Islam and many more things we do. For that one needs to study the Madhabs. That is verified in the Qur'an.

Quote:
Allah SWT says repeatedly in the Quran to obey both Him and the Messenger. One example is Surah an-Nisa ayah 59.

Ya ayyuha alladhina amanu ati Allaha wa ati ar-Rasul wa ulu'l-amr min kum. Fa in tanaza'tun fi shay'in fa rudduhu ilaAllahi wa ar-Rasul in kuntum tu'minuna bIllahi wa'l-Yawmi al-Akhir. Dhalika khayrun wa ahsanu ta'wil.

O you, those who have faith, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you dispute over a thing, then return it to Allah and the Messenger, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more beautiful of interpretation.

He says that the Prophet (sAas) has been sent to explain the Quran, not just to deliver it (Surah an-Nahl ayah 44).

Bi al-bayyinat wa az-Zubur wa anzalna ilayka adh-Dhikra li-tubayyina li an-nas maa nuzzila ilayhim wa la'allahum yatafakkarun.

By clear proofs and scriptures, and We have sent down on you (O Prophet) the Reminder, that you can explain to humankind what is sent down for them and in order that they may reflect.

He says that people do not have faith if they do not take the Prophet (sAas) as the judge of their disputes (Surah an-Nisa ayah 65).

Fa laa wa Rabbika laa yu'minuna hatta yuhakkimuka fi maa shajara baynahum thumma laa yajidu fi anfusihim haraj min maa qadayta wa yusallimu taslima.

No, by your Lord and Sustainer, they do not have faith until they have you (O Prophet) judge what is disputed among them, then they do not find in their souls any distress at what you have decided, and they accept it wholly and completely.

He says that when He and the Prophet (sAas) have decided a matter, it is not for any believing man or woman to do anything but obey (Surah al-Ahzab ayah 36).

Wa maa kana li mu'min wa laa mu'minah idha qadaAllahu wa Rasuluhu amran an yakuna lahum al-khiyarat min amrihim wa man ya'siAllaha wa Rasulaha faqad dalla dalala mubin.

And it is not ever for a faithful man or a faithful woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided an affair that there is any choice for them in their affair, and who disobeys Allah and His Messenger, so he is indeed wandering far astray.

He says that what the Messenger gives, people should take, and what he prohibits, they should abstain from (Surah al-Hashr ayah 7).

Why Muslims Must Follow the Sunna As Well As the Quran
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Old 12-11-2015, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
I remember when I was a teenager and a super devout Christian, I used to go up into the hills behind our home. It was a time when I read the bible vociferously. I was enamored with the Old Testament prophets. I loved the way they were imbued with power and the fierce way they pronounced the judgment of God on the disobedient Israelites. So, seeking the same power (as we were promised as Christians), I used to separate myself and head to the hills to pray.
I became so convinced that the other young people in my church were not serious enough. I believed they were slackers who barely knew their bibles and did not take prayer seriously enough. I also believed the end was near and that the people on my island were forsaking God and not preparing themselves for Jesus' return.
I became so emboldened, I began preaching in my school and asking to preach in church.


I felt called. I felt as if God was speaking through me. I felt I had the message my people needed to hear. It got so wild, I would write letters to people, declaring the return of the lord and the need to repent.
This is a very good story that is pointing at the bull's eye in understanding the ultimate basis of Islam. To avoid your arrow from blowing off course by the wind, here are some points to ensure it reaches its target.


1. Your experience is that of an impulse towards religiosity. This happens in the brain and it comes in degrees and your religiosity drive could be rated, say 30/100.


2. In Muhammad's case, his rating of religiosity was probably 90/100. Note there are a tons of research on why some people have this religiosity impulse in their brain and psyche. I have covered an extensive range of these research. Such a religiosity impulse is due to certain wirings in the brain that trigger it over time or suddenly.


3. The religiosity wiring circuit in the brain can be caused by various reasons, i.e. spiritual and religious practices, drugs, hallucinogens, brain damage, sleep deprivations and various mental illness.


4. There are many cases of mental illness that trigger very strong religiosity impulse in the patient, e.g. in certain [not all] cases of schizophrenia, temporal lope epilepsy, etc. There are a lot of research on this to prove to correlation between religiosity and these mental illness. At the extreme, these patient truly believe they are some kind of agent, messenger, prophet, appointed by God to speak to human. One example of religiosity due temporal lobe epilepsy,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg


5. There is a possibility Muhammad suffered from some kind of temporal lobe epilepsy or some other that triggered his religiosity that sent him wanting to start a new religion. There are many clues in the Quran and Hadiths to support he had such experiences.


6. I presumed as in your last para above [I felt called. .... ] and with a 30/100 you could extrapolate and understand how Muhammad with a 90/100 religiosity impulse would have felt and impelled by his brain to do what he has to do.


7. In addition, Muhammad could have some psychopathic elements thus the aggression at the end of his life. Note the contrast to Jesus's compassion, love, etc. and that of the Buddha and others.


The above 1-7 is the fundamental of Islam. I am 100% there is no God and the Quran can only be authored by Muhammad or a group of men.
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Old 12-11-2015, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I disagree with this and believe you will find so do many other Muslims

The Qur'an is not a book about how to practice Islam, it is about the why. The methodology of performing Islam is found in the Ahadith, Sirat, Sunnah and the Madhabs.

Yes there are Qur'anis (Qur'an only Muslims) but even they will have to admit that the Qur'an does not explain how to pray, how to do Wadu or Ghusl, how to determine zakat, how to write a nikkah, how to obey the Pillars of Islam and many more things we do. For that one needs to study the Madhabs. That is verified in the Qur'an.
Basically and imperatively you cannot defy the logic below, else you are defying Allah.
Note this logic and imperative:
1. The principle is whatever a Muslim act, reason and even think [note Allah can read what is in your 'breast'], it must comply with the words of Allah as in the Quran [MGA-610] and no where else.
2. The Ahadiths are thought out and reasoned by Muslims scholars.
3. Therefore the Ahadiths must comply with the Quran, i.e. words of Allah and nothing else.

I did not say Muslims must abandon the Ahadith, Sirat, Sunnah and the Madhabs.
What I said was if Muslims are to adopt the above, then they must comply with the logical rationale above.
Therefore if they follow any element from the Ahadith, Sirat, Sunnah and the Madhabs or even their grandfather's or any one's advice, what is to be acted MUST be in alignment [not exactly] with the principles in the Quran.
For example, the Quran stipulated a Muslim must pray and mentioned the few times a Muslim must pray [an providing exceptions therein], but why must a Muslim pray exactly 5 times to comply with the Hadiths.


As for Ghusl, that is a common sense hygiene which is standard in the modern era and there is no need to come up with specific ways of keeping clean. In general, a simple rule of 'A Muslim must be hygienic at all times' is sufficient. If there is to be any details, they should not be enforced as rigid rules and ritual that cause anxieties to many who may missed out some steps.
Rituals are usually laid out by the clergy class to control the masses.


In most spiritual practices such a prayer, meditation, etc, one will feel off if one is not fresh and clean. As such most religious and spiritual minded people will spontaneously will ensure they are in a fresh and clean state before they proceed.


Real spiritual developments need effective spiritual practices [as proven in the Eastern religions and others] which effectively make real spiritual changes in the circuits in the brain and these exercises are beyond the very ineffective rituals which are 'kindergartenish'.


The weakness of Islam is, it made all doctrines and rituals fixed at the lower spirituality levels and insist they are immutable, thus trapping all obedient Muslims at the lower strata of spirituality. This is also one reason why SOME of the evil prone tend towards the evil laden elements [wrong and unnecessary for a religion and way of life].


Quote:
Allah SWT says repeatedly in the Quran to obey both Him and the Messenger. One example is Surah an-Nisa ayah 59.


O you, those who have faith, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you dispute over a thing, then return it to Allah and the Messenger, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more beautiful of interpretation.
I know there are many verses in the Quran that exhort Muslims to 'obey' Muhammad.


I have opened a thread to discuss that such 'obey' in context is a qualified obedience.
As I had stated before in the Army you are the soldier is duty to bound to obey his senior-in-charge and up the ranks. This does not meant obeying everything that is requested or what he has been saying. What is need to be obeyed must be in accordance to the constitution of the Army.
It is the same in any organization, business or otherwise, the lower rank staff must obey their senior in charge. But whatever instruction or advice that is given must be strictly be in accordance to the organization's charter, policies, rules and standard operating procedures. A staff cannot obey the senior if the instruction is outside the scope of his duties.


Similarly, Allah stated Muslims must obey Muhammad, but that is limited to the doctrines and principles in the Quran and no where else.
Thus if a hadiths stipulated stoning to death for adultery - as presumed to be spoken by Muhammad - there is no imperative for a Muslim proper to comply with such a hadith. This is because Allah did not specify such a ruling in the Quran. Such a deliberation is very critical because it involve killing another person when it is not stipulated by Allah at all.


My Point:
Therefore if Muslims need to follow any element from the Ahadith, Sirat, Sunnah and the Madhabs or even their grandfather's or any one's advice, the elements MUST be in alignment [not necessary exactly] with the principles in the Quran, i.e. Allah's words. Note Allah's words is supreme.
If they do not follow the above then whatever the act done is bidah.
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Old 12-11-2015, 11:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Basically and imperatively you cannot defy the logic below, else you are defying Allah.
Note this logic and imperative:
1. The principle is whatever a Muslim act, reason and even think [note Allah can read what is in your 'breast'], it must comply with the words of Allah as in the Quran [MGA-610] and no where else.
2. The Ahadiths are thought out and reasoned by Muslims scholars.
3. Therefore the Ahadiths must comply with the Quran, i.e. words of Allah and nothing else.

I did not say Muslims must abandon the Ahadith, Sirat, Sunnah and the Madhabs.
What I said was if Muslims are to adopt the above, then they must comply with the logical rationale above.
Therefore if they follow any element from the Ahadith, Sirat, Sunnah and the Madhabs or even their grandfather's or any one's advice, what is to be acted MUST be in alignment [not exactly] with the principles in the Quran.
For example, the Quran stipulated a Muslim must pray and mentioned the few times a Muslim must pray [an providing exceptions therein], but why must a Muslim pray exactly 5 times to comply with the Hadiths.


As for Ghusl, that is a common sense hygiene which is standard in the modern era and there is no need to come up with specific ways of keeping clean. In general, a simple rule of 'A Muslim must be hygienic at all times' is sufficient. If there is to be any details, they should not be enforced as rigid rules and ritual that cause anxieties to many who may missed out some steps.
Rituals are usually laid out by the clergy class to control the masses.


In most spiritual practices such a prayer, meditation, etc, one will feel off if one is not fresh and clean. As such most religious and spiritual minded people will spontaneously will ensure they are in a fresh and clean state before they proceed.


Real spiritual developments need effective spiritual practices [as proven in the Eastern religions and others] which effectively make real spiritual changes in the circuits in the brain and these exercises are beyond the very ineffective rituals which are 'kindergartenish'.


The weakness of Islam is, it made all doctrines and rituals fixed at the lower spirituality levels and insist they are immutable, thus trapping all obedient Muslims at the lower strata of spirituality. This is also one reason why SOME of the evil prone tend towards the evil laden elements [wrong and unnecessary for a religion and way of life].


I know there are many verses in the Quran that exhort Muslims to 'obey' Muhammad.


I have opened a thread to discuss that such 'obey' in context is a qualified obedience.
As I had stated before in the Army you are the soldier is duty to bound to obey his senior-in-charge and up the ranks. This does not meant obeying everything that is requested or what he has been saying. What is need to be obeyed must be in accordance to the constitution of the Army.
It is the same in any organization, business or otherwise, the lower rank staff must obey their senior in charge. But whatever instruction or advice that is given must be strictly be in accordance to the organization's charter, policies, rules and standard operating procedures. A staff cannot obey the senior if the instruction is outside the scope of his duties.


Similarly, Allah stated Muslims must obey Muhammad, but that is limited to the doctrines and principles in the Quran and no where else.
Thus if a hadiths stipulated stoning to death for adultery - as presumed to be spoken by Muhammad - there is no imperative for a Muslim proper to comply with such a hadith. This is because Allah did not specify such a ruling in the Quran. Such a deliberation is very critical because it involve killing another person when it is not stipulated by Allah at all.


My Point:
Therefore if Muslims need to follow any element from the Ahadith, Sirat, Sunnah and the Madhabs or even their grandfather's or any one's advice, the elements MUST be in alignment [not necessary exactly] with the principles in the Quran, i.e. Allah's words. Note Allah's words is supreme.
If they do not follow the above then whatever the act done is bidah.
The Ahadith are not the words of Muhammad(saws) or Allaah(swt). They are eye wirness accounts of people that lived at the time of Muhammad and either saw and knew Muhammad personally or the companions of Muhammad(swt) They were not requested by Muhammad(saws) and in most cases Muhammad(saws) was probably unaware of what was being written about hims and many of the Ahadith were probably not but into writing until 100 years or more after the Death of Muhammad(saws) an exception being the 40 Qudsi that Muhammad directed the scribs to write down and are considered to be the words of Muhammad(saws) inspired by Allaah(swt).

The reason there is so much similarities. in the Ahadith is because many times there was more than one eyewitness, each relating their memory of what they saw or heard, The majority of Ahadith related about Aisha were witnessed by Hisham. It should be noted Hisham was about 12 years old when Aisha dies and he did not write down his memories until he was in his 70s. The Sahih Ahadith have the highest levels of authenticity, by authenticity meaning it is certain the witness actually lived at the time of Muhammad (except for Hisham who was born after the death of Muhammad, but His Ahadith are what he remembered Aisha telling him and he was alive while Aisha was alife, being about 12 years old when she died. Many of the Ahadith attributed to Aisha were written only by Hisham and only Aisha witnessed them.

all Ahadith need to be read with a full understanding of the witness and the chain of narrators that leads from the compiler back to the witness. There is quite a bit of Cravat Emptor involved in the Ahadith. there is always a possibility of error as the ahadith are not the words of Muhammad(saws) or of Allaah(swt)

Ghusl is different from hygiene it is in addition to hygiene and is a ritual to symbolically wash away sins and impurities. Ghusl is separate from simple washing and done for specific reasons. Has nothing to do with hygiene. Same as with wadu, except wadu is symbolic of cleansing one's soul prior to prayer.
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Old 12-12-2015, 02:20 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Ahadith are not the words of Muhammad(saws) or Allaah(swt). They are eye wirness accounts of people that lived at the time of Muhammad and either saw and knew Muhammad personally or the companions of Muhammad(swt) They were not requested by Muhammad(saws) and in most cases Muhammad(saws) was probably unaware of what was being written about hims and many of the Ahadith were probably not but into writing until 100 years or more after the Death of Muhammad(saws) an exception being the 40 Qudsi that Muhammad directed the scribs to write down and are considered to be the words of Muhammad(saws) inspired by Allaah(swt).
1. We were discussing matters related to 'obey' Muhammad with reference to the Ahadiths. If it is related to 'obey' then it must be based on his sayings or instructions to various people.
In this case, 'obey Muhammad' is related to hadiths that are sayings and instructions.


2. For those hadiths that are based on what people see of Muhammad actions, this is worse because how they know what Muhammad did was supposed to be divine. In the Quran it is stated Muhammad is supposed to be an exemplar to be followed by all Muslims. But it would be dumb to follow every action of Muhammad based on what is seen from a distance and without inter-communication with him.


Regardless, in both cases in 1 and 2 above, the individual Hadiths MUST comply with the principles in the Quran [MGA-610AD]. There are no exceptions to this as the Quran is the sole representation of Allah words. Non-compliance with the principles would be bidah or defying Allah's authority.


Therefore all hadiths that do not comply with the Quran must not be taken as divine nor granted any divine authority.
As such they should not be converted to Islamic Laws to be imposed and infringe on the basic human rights of any human.
In addition, there should not be any Islamic Laws based on the authority of the Quran which is supposed from Allah [God] because there is no God in the first place.




Quote:
The reason there is so much similarities. in the Ahadith is because many times there was more than one eyewitness, each relating their memory of what they saw or heard, The majority of Ahadith related about Aisha were witnessed by Hisham. It should be noted Hisham was about 12 years old when Aisha dies and he did not write down his memories until he was in his 70s. The Sahih Ahadith have the highest levels of authenticity, by authenticity meaning it is certain the witness actually lived at the time of Muhammad (except for Hisham who was born after the death of Muhammad, but His Ahadith are what he remembered Aisha telling him and he was alive while Aisha was alife, being about 12 years old when she died. Many of the Ahadith attributed to Aisha were written only by Hisham and only Aisha witnessed them.
The witnesses and existence of much similarities do not imply truth as related to Quran nor carry any authority Allah.
If the Ahadiths were written more than 100 years up to 200 years the stories could have spread around the vicinity and thus the possibility of consensus along time and locations.

Quote:
all Ahadith need to be read with a full understanding of the witness and the chain of narrators that leads from the compiler back to the witness. There is quite a bit of Caveat Emptor involved in the Ahadith. there is always a possibility of error as the ahadith are not the words of Muhammad(saws) or of Allaah(swt)
It is obvious all the hadiths must be read with reservations and doubts of the possibility of error.
However if the Hadiths is in alignment with the Quran, there should be no issue for it to act as a guide but not an authoritative doctrine of Islam.
All hadiths which do not align with the principles in the Quran should be rejected.

Quote:
Ghusl is different from hygiene it is in addition to hygiene and is a ritual to symbolically wash away sins and impurities. Ghusl is separate from simple washing and done for specific reasons. Has nothing to do with hygiene. Same as with wadu, except wadu is symbolic of cleansing one's soul prior to prayer.
The various Ghusl are basically related to hygiene and converted as ritual. What do you mean by 'impurities' if it is not actual physical impurities. Physical impurities must be related to hygiene and cleanliness. If a Muslim has worked in the fields and has dirt all over, he has to clean all over his body. A Muslim is expected to wash after sex or if there are discharge. I raised the 'Female Wet Dream' OP - the question of anxiety was, do the female has to wash [getting rid of impurities] after she read something sexy and has the usual discharge? Female has normal discharge the whole day, thus must she wash every hour?


Rituals are for kindergarten practitioners. Advance spiritual practitioners will just clean themselves if they are dirty and don't if they are not. They would rather spent time on actual spiritual development that increases one's spiritual competence.
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Old 12-12-2015, 10:42 AM
 
4,417 posts, read 1,646,121 times
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Some of the rhetoric here is such a non-sense.

If ISIS wants to launch the "Jihad" on everyone and convert all world into Muslims and kill all the non-Muslims then ------- why don't they start an attack on Israel, you may wonder? Convert all Zionists into Islam, kill all those who don't convert, and free the Palestinian fellow Muslims?

ISIS has nothing to do with the true message of Islam that is peace for everyone. We Muslims stand united against ISIS and reject their filthy ideaology of barbarism. It has nothing to do with Islam.
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Old 12-12-2015, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Some of the rhetoric here is such a non-sense.

If ISIS wants to launch the "Jihad" on everyone and convert all world into Muslims and kill all the non-Muslims then ------- why don't they start an attack on Israel, you may wonder? Convert all Zionists into Islam, kill all those who don't convert, and free the Palestinian fellow Muslims?

ISIS has nothing to do with the true message of Islam that is peace for everyone. We Muslims stand united against ISIS and reject their filthy ideaology of barbarism. It has nothing to do with Islam.
ISIS seems to be more concerned with killing Muslims. Althopugh the killings of Non-Muslims have been very high profile, the vast majority of people ISIS has murdered have been Muslims.

ISIS

Paris attacks: Isis responsible for more Muslim deaths than western victims | Europe | News | The Independent

Beyond Paris: 10,000s Of Muslims Killed By ISIS Since Declaring Caliphate
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Old 12-12-2015, 11:22 AM
 
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Muslims have been slaughtering Muslims since the battle of the camel right after Muhammed kicked the bucket. It's not ISIS, it's Islam. Since 1946 over 10 MILLION Muslims have been slaughtered by other Muslims.
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