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Old 12-05-2015, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
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Many are condemning ISIS as non-Islamic.
Here is one counter view that ISIS is Islamic from Dr. Ahmed al-Tayeb, the Sheikh and Grand Imam of Al Azhar — and thus Egypt's foremost authority on all things Islamic.


..............................
During an open discussion at Cairo University held on December 2, [2016] Dr. Ahmed al-Tayeb, the Sheikh and Grand Imam of Al Azhar — and thus Egypt's foremost authority on all things Islamic — was again asked why Al Azhar refuses to issue a formal statement denouncing the Islamic State of lapsing into a state of kufr, that is, of becoming un-Islamic, "infidel."


In response, Tayeb said that the only way Al Azhar could do this is if a Muslim formally rejected the fundamental principles of Islam, such as the shahada—that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger—and Islamic scriptures.


However, Tayib concluded by saying, "Al Azhar cannot accuse any [Muslim] of being a kafir [infidel], as long as he believes in Allah and the Last Day—even if he commits every atrocity," adding: "I cannot denounce ISIS as un-Islamic, but I can say that they cause corruption on earth. ISIS believes that those [Muslims] who commit the great sins are kafirs and can be killed. Thus if I denounce them of being un-Islamic, I fall into the same [trap] I am now condemning."


As critics point out, however, Al Azhar is often quick to denounce as "infidels"—or at least "blasphemers"—those secular Muslims who merely critique portions of the Islamic heritage. Yet here is the Islamic world's most prestigious university refusing to denounce ISIS as un-Islamic–even as most Western politicians, at their head U.S. President Obama, insist that ISIS "is not Islamic."


In short, Tayeb's comments further bolster the argument in Egypt that Al Azhar sees "liberal" Muslims as more dangerous and un-Islamic than ISIS — which should not be surprising considering that many former students have denounced the Muslim world's most renowned university for teaching and legitimizing all the atrocities that ISIS commits.


Al Azhar Can't Denounce ISIS as Un-Islamic Even if It Commits 'Every Atrocity' :: Middle East Forum
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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From the OP

However, Tayib concluded by saying, "Al Azhar cannot accuse any [Muslim] of being a kafir [infidel], as long as he believes in Allah and the Last Day—even if he commits every atrocity," adding: "I cannot denounce ISIS as un-Islamic, but I can say that they cause corruption on earth. ISIS believes that those [Muslims] who commit the great sins are kafirs and can be killed. Thus if I denounce them of being un-Islamic, I fall into the same [trap] I am now condemning."


Calling anyone Kafir (Non-Islamic) is much over used and should be avoided. Especially if a person says they are Muslim. We have no way of knowing who is or is not Muslim. If they say they are Muslim we have to accept them as being Muslims even if we believe their actions are not Islamic. A Muslim is to practice Islam to the best of their ability and knowledge. If they are doing that, we have no way of knowing. We can disagree with specific actions they do, but that does not mean they are not Muslims. To say a person is being un-Islamic and they are a Muslim, we have committed a very serious sin and it will come back upon us. It is like the saying, when you point a finger at someone, 3 fingers are pointing back at yourself.

When we condemn an action we have to do so in such a manner that we are showing the action is un-Islamic without accusing the individual of being un-Islamic.












from the OP
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Old 12-06-2015, 03:11 PM
 
352 posts, read 308,269 times
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.


A video presentation regarding ISIS. Mufri Menk is being interviewed:

https://www.facebook.com/muftimenkvi...1324930349794/ Regarding ISIS Mufti Ismail ibn Musa Menk.


https://www.muftimenk.com/



Wassalaam. devotee
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Old 12-06-2015, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,879 posts, read 2,381,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devotee View Post
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.


A video presentation regarding ISIS. Mufri Menk is being interviewed:

https://www.facebook.com/muftimenkvi...1324930349794/ Regarding ISIS Mufti Ismail ibn Musa Menk.


https://www.muftimenk.com/



Wassalaam. devotee
A rep just wasn't enough to thank you for this video by a very clear message EXPOSING Isil highjacking a whole religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TY TY

I have worked with co-workeers, taken care of patients of Muslim faith..and have never ever met one who was more than gracious, respectful and so appreciative of the even the little things
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Old 12-06-2015, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
From the OP

However, Tayib concluded by saying, "Al Azhar cannot accuse any [Muslim] of being a kafir [infidel], as long as he believes in Allah and the Last Day—even if he commits every atrocity," adding: "I cannot denounce ISIS as un-Islamic, but I can say that they cause corruption on earth. ISIS believes that those [Muslims] who commit the great sins are kafirs and can be killed. Thus if I denounce them of being un-Islamic, I fall into the same [trap] I am now condemning."


Calling anyone Kafir (Non-Islamic) is much over used and should be avoided. Especially if a person says they are Muslim. We have no way of knowing who is or is not Muslim. If they say they are Muslim we have to accept them as being Muslims even if we believe their actions are not Islamic. A Muslim is to practice Islam to the best of their ability and knowledge. If they are doing that, we have no way of knowing. We can disagree with specific actions they do, but that does not mean they are not Muslims. To say a person is being un-Islamic and they are a Muslim, we have committed a very serious sin and it will come back upon us. It is like the saying, when you point a finger at someone, 3 fingers are pointing back at yourself.

When we condemn an action we have to do so in such a manner that we are showing the action is un-Islamic without accusing the individual of being un-Islamic.
So you agree with Tayib, ISIS is Islamic.
I agree as well and I have been saying that from the start.


In fact I have claimed that the Muslims of ISIS are more truer Muslims than the majority of so-called moderate Muslims. This can be proven objectively by assessing how much the Muslims of ISIS comply with the doctrines, terms and conditions of their covenant with Allah as dictated in the Quran [MGA-610] and no where else.


There are only 6,236 verses in the Quran so this objective assessment is not difficult when we use all the 6,236 verses as a checklist against what is done by the Muslims of ISIS in comparison to the 'moderates.'
In rough assessments, in terms of compliance with the Quran, the Muslims of ISIS are more truer Muslims than the majority of moderates. [btw, this is merely an objective assessment and I do not support ISIS].
I am confident I cannot be proved wrong on this. Anyone?


On the above basis, people should not deny ISIS has nothing to do with Islam.
The truth is ISIS is objectively more Islamic than the majority of moderate Muslims.


ISIS is very Islamic and represent a high degree of Islam as per the Quran [MGA-610].


Where ISIS deviate from Islam [Quran MGA 610] is when they follow certain hadiths that are not in accordance [wajib] with the doctrines and principle of Islam.
For example stoning to death for adultery, total cover for women are from the Hadiths and not from the Quran. These are deviations from Islam proper.


Therefore leaders like Obama, Cameron, Hollande, Merkel, and others must not deny the terrorism of jihadists, e.g. ISIS, Boko Haram, etc. has anything to do with Islam.
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Old 12-06-2015, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyndarn View Post
A rep just wasn't enough to thank you for this video by a very clear message EXPOSING Isil highjacking a whole religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TY TY

I have worked with co-workeers, taken care of patients of Muslim faith..and have never ever met one who was more than gracious, respectful and so appreciative of the even the little things
You have wools pulled over your eyes.


I dare say the Mufti was cherry picking to suit his personal views which is not reflective of what the Quran is supposed to convey.


For example he mentioned that very abused phrase, 'kill one human is as if one has killed the whole of mankind'.


Firstly the original concept of this point was from the Jews which Muhammad plagiarized for his Quran. This is represented in 5:32 of the Quran which is only applicable to the Jews.
However in the next verses 5:33 Allah provided the exception for killing of non-Muslims if they commit "corruption."
The term 'corruption' is very vague and ambiguous in the Quran which extend to 'mischiefs' threats and 'wronged.' This vagueness enable SOME Muslims to interpret the slightest offence by non-Muslims as a threat to the religion, e.g. drawing of cartoons and other matters which Muslims [due to low self esteem] are very sensitive.


For details re abuse of 5:32 note this link;
http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/8...s-islamic.html
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Old 12-07-2015, 04:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You have wools pulled over your eyes.


I dare say the Mufti was cherry picking to suit his personal views which is not reflective of what the Quran is supposed to convey.


For example he mentioned that very abused phrase, 'kill one human is as if one has killed the whole of mankind'.


Firstly the original concept of this point was from the Jews which Muhammad plagiarized for his Quran. This is represented in 5:32 of the Quran which is only applicable to the Jews.
However in the next verses 5:33 Allah provided the exception for killing of non-Muslims if they commit "corruption."
The term 'corruption' is very vague and ambiguous in the Quran which extend to 'mischiefs' threats and 'wronged.' This vagueness enable SOME Muslims to interpret the slightest offence by non-Muslims as a threat to the religion, e.g. drawing of cartoons and other matters which Muslims [due to low self esteem] are very sensitive.


For details re abuse of 5:32 note this link;
http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/8...s-islamic.html
One of the most commonly used smoke screens and misdirections.

Of course we know 5:32 is from Jewish Scripture as was the refelection of cain and Abel in the ayyat before.

Lo! I would rather thou shouldst bear the punishment of the sin against me and thine own sin and become one of the owners of the Fire. That is the reward of evil doers. - 5:29 (Picktall)



Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread) - 5:30

But (the other's) mind imposed on him the killing of his brother, so he slew him and became one of the losers. - 5:30 (Picktall)



Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread) - 5:31

Then Allah sent a raven scratching up the ground, to show him how to hide his brother's naked corpse. He said: Woe unto me! Am I not able to be as this raven and so hide my brother's naked corpse? And he became repentant. - 5:31 (Picktall)



Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread) - 5:32

For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if be had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty) , but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth. - 5:32 (Picktall)

But we believethe scripture of old applies to all of mankind as the words of all the Prophets(PBUT) are for all of mankind.

Ayyat 33 and 34 are very strong warnings that those who kill another human will face very harsh punishment on earth and in the hereafter

Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread) - 5:33

The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; - 5:33 (Picktall)



Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread) - 5:34

Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. - 5:34 (Picktall)
%:27-40 really should be read as a single paragraph. In a recitation they are recited in Arabic with a single breath as a single sentence. It is a bit choppy and inaccurate to read each as a seperate thought when they are a single though which basically is "Thou Shalt not Kill" Which if you read the Torah in Hebrew is actually a category of Commandments consisting of quite a few lines.

The Qur'an is not a new Message everything in it can be found in some variation in the earlier Scriptures the Torah, Psalms and Gospel of Jesus(a.s.)
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Old 12-07-2015, 05:16 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,401 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

The Qur'an is not a new Message everything in it can be found in some variation in the earlier Scriptures the Torah, Psalms and Gospel of Jesus(a.s.)
This is perfectly clear for anyone who have take the time to read the Quran.
Not a new message, that's why some rules may be the same or close to the previous Scriptures.

I noticed when it was about some points like circumcision, pork, fast, scarf etc they say we copied the jews, and when it's something like the verses concerning Adam's children suddenly it only concerns the jews !

Like said Woodrw LI, the Quran never said it's a new message and confirms previous teachings.


87.14-15 He is successful who groweth, And remembereth the name of his Lord, so prayeth

87. 18-19
Lo! This is in the former scrolls. The Books of Abraham and Moses.



53.36-37
Didst thou (O Muhammad) observe him who turned away, And gave a little, then was grudging?

53.36-37
Or hath he not had news of what is in the books of Moses And Abraham who paid his debt:

53.38-39
That no laden one shall bear another's load, And that man hath only that for which he maketh effort, And that his effort will be seen.
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Old 12-07-2015, 05:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
So you agree with Tayib, ISIS is Islamic.
I agree as well and I have been saying that from the start.


In fact I have claimed that the Muslims of ISIS are more truer Muslims than the majority of so-called moderate Muslims. This can be proven objectively by assessing how much the Muslims of ISIS comply with the doctrines, terms and conditions of their covenant with Allah as dictated in the Quran [MGA-610] and no where else.


There are only 6,236 verses in the Quran so this objective assessment is not difficult when we use all the 6,236 verses as a checklist against what is done by the Muslims of ISIS in comparison to the 'moderates.'
In rough assessments, in terms of compliance with the Quran, the Muslims of ISIS are more truer Muslims than the majority of moderates. [btw, this is merely an objective assessment and I do not support ISIS].
I am confident I cannot be proved wrong on this. Anyone?


On the above basis, people should not deny ISIS has nothing to do with Islam.
The truth is ISIS is objectively more Islamic than the majority of moderate Muslims.


ISIS is very Islamic and represent a high degree of Islam as per the Quran [MGA-610].


Where ISIS deviate from Islam [Quran MGA 610] is when they follow certain hadiths that are not in accordance [wajib] with the doctrines and principle of Islam.
For example stoning to death for adultery, total cover for women are from the Hadiths and not from the Quran. These are deviations from Islam proper.


Therefore leaders like Obama, Cameron, Hollande, Merkel, and others must not deny the terrorism of jihadists, e.g. ISIS, Boko Haram, etc. has anything to do with Islam.
I am saying I can not say they are not Muslim. A Muslim has to practice Islam to the best of their ability and knowledge. Perfection is not expected or required. I can not say the Members of ISIS are un-Islamic as they may be practicing to the best of their ability and Knowledge. But I can and will say they are doing many things I believe are not Islamic, such as the killing of innocent people, killing by fire, destroying places that are holy to other people, mistreating prisoners, trying to establish a Caliphate etc.
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Old 12-07-2015, 06:00 AM
 
Location: North Carolina
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Last edited by RcHydro; 12-07-2015 at 06:08 AM..
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