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Old 12-15-2015, 02:31 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a very silly challenge.


Here is a similar challenge to the Quran's challenge, but it is similarly silly.
I challenge your to reproduce an exact copy of the Mona Lisa down to every color elements in its right place, with the right emphasis, plus [ a long list of requirements] as the original. If you cannot therefore you are wrong and blah, blah, blah.


I can set so many challenges related to subjective proposition which no one can repeat because it is subjective and not objective in the first place.


There are many articles on why the Quran challenge is silly.
Here is one;
Is the Qur'an Miraculous?
There are many others.


As I said, don't insult your intelligence.
The best way to prove your god exists is to bring the evidence and justifications like every other rational proofs of existence.
Yeah I already heard these same excuses from another guy, by the way Allah(swt) did not said that you have to produce Surah Al Kausar 10words, you can choose any chapter and produce a chapter like it, you cannot compare Quranic chapters with mona lisa blah blah blah, now tell me Muhammad(PBUH) who was illiterate cannot read or write produced 114 chapters and 6,666 verses and no one can produce a single chapter like it ? Quran is not in Alien language,it is Arabic and that time Arabs were on the peak in poetry and literature and they failed to produce a single chapter. Christians missionaries tried and spend whole lot of money but failed miserably, if A man can produce the likes of Quran who was illiterate then why not no one else could? simply Because Quran is not a work of human
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Old 12-15-2015, 06:45 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
Yeah I already heard these same excuses from another guy, by the way Allah(swt) did not said that you have to produce Surah Al Kausar 10words, you can choose any chapter and produce a chapter like it, you cannot compare Quranic chapters with mona lisa blah blah blah, now tell me Muhammad(PBUH) who was illiterate cannot read or write produced 114 chapters and 6,666 verses and no one can produce a single chapter like it ? Quran is not in Alien language,it is Arabic and that time Arabs were on the peak in poetry and literature and they failed to produce a single chapter. Christians missionaries tried and spend whole lot of money but failed miserably, if A man can produce the likes of Quran who was illiterate then why not no one else could? simply Because Quran is not a work of human
Here you go....

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ba2UOb6c0/edit
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Old 12-15-2015, 09:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
first read my post what is the challenge at post#39, you posted a English novel, I must say you really are a funny guy
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:25 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
first read my post what is the challenge at post#39, you posted a English novel, I must say you really are a funny guy
It wins hands down against the evil nonsense in the Quran.
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
It wins hands down against the evil nonsense in the Quran.
When you cant do something, make lame excuses
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Old 12-15-2015, 11:17 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
When you cant do something, make lame excuses
Why don't you compare what is from the link I posted to the Quran. I'll get you started:

“Happiness is the successful state of life, pain is an agent of death. Happiness is that state of consciousness which proceeds from the achievement of one’s values. A morality that dares to tell you to find happiness in the renunciation of your happiness-to value the failure of your values-is an insolent negation of morality. A doctrine that gives you, as an ideal, the role of a sacrificial animal seeking slaughter on the altars of others, is giving you death as your standard. By the grace of reality and the nature of life, man-every man-is an end in himself, he exists for his own sake, and the achievement of his own happiness is his highest moral purpose.
“But neither life nor happiness can be achieved by the pursuit of irrational whims. Just as man is free to attempt to survive in any random manner, but will perish unless he lives as his nature requires, so he is free to seek his happiness in any mindless fraud, but the torture of frustration is all he will find, unless he seeks the happiness proper to man. The purpose of morality is to teach you, not to suffer and die, but to enjoy yourself and live.....
My morality, the morality of reason, is contained in a single axiom: existence exists-and in a single choice: to live. The rest proceeds from these. To live, man must hold three things as the supreme and ruling values of his life: Reason-Purpose-Self-esteem. Reason, as his only tool of knowledge-Purpose, as his choice of the happiness which that tool must proceed to achieve-Self-esteem, as his inviolate certainty that his mind is competent to think and his person is worthy of happiness, which means: is worthy of living. These three values imply and require all of man’s virtues, and all his virtues pertain to the relation of existence and consciousness: rationality, independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, pride."

Post something from the Quran that equals this in intelligence.
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Old 12-15-2015, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
Yeah I already heard these same excuses from another guy, by the way Allah(swt) did not said that you have to produce Surah Al Kausar 10words, you can choose any chapter and produce a chapter like it, you cannot compare Quranic chapters with mona lisa blah blah blah, now tell me Muhammad(PBUH) who was illiterate cannot read or write produced 114 chapters and 6,666 verses and no one can produce a single chapter like it ? Quran is not in Alien language,it is Arabic and that time Arabs were on the peak in poetry and literature and they failed to produce a single chapter. Christians missionaries tried and spend whole lot of money but failed miserably, if A man can produce the likes of Quran who was illiterate then why not no one else could? simply Because Quran is not a work of human
That Muhammad was illiterate to prove he was not the author of the Quran was a farce.
I am 100% certain it is impossible for God to exists as real, therefore the Quran cannot be from a God but from a human or group of people.


Re the Challenge;
My point is there is no way there can be an exact reproduction of any written work or art because of the subjective elements. This is similar to the finger prints of all human beings are different and there are no two persons who has the same finger prints. Any one who understand this principle and truth will not demand a perfect duplication of any written literally works or art in the list of criteria you had expected. I say again this is a silly challenge.


However if the challenge is with reference to same ideas and concepts that would be very easy.


For example if you asked 100 artists to draw a portrait of a nude women sitting in front of them, each artist will produce a different painting [in terms of various variables] of the nude women. The point is, there is only one nude women present but there are 100 different paintings by the different artists. Why? Because of the subjective conditions of each artists are different.
You get the point!
While the painting themselves are different, there can a common theme, concept, idea and subject, e.g. nudes, nude women, nude painting of Miss X, nudes of women in watercolor, oil, etc.


Therefore if you apply the above to the Quran challenge in terms of ideas and concepts, it would be easy to duplicate the main ideas and concepts of the Quran.
All one need is to understand the main ideas, concepts, elements [the good and including errors, stupidity, violence, immorality, cruelty, evils, etc.] in each verse and rephrase it in the manner each individual is most competent to do it.
Then we repeat such a formula for all the 6,236 verses of the Quran where we can use it in a different context, perspectives or whatever.


Based on the above recipe [model and principles], therefore it is possible to repeat and reproduce a book like the Quran or any other texts.


Another point; what is most important are the main ideas, concepts and elements that would convey the message. The format and word gymnastic of a text is not critical.


The purpose of any text is to communicate the main and critical ideas not how nice it looks, nice to read or sound good when read. That is why I say the Quran challenge is very silly.


Btw, do you know what are koans?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan
These are paradoxical statement that look ridiculous but yet are the most efficient approach to get the critical very subtle and refine ideas across.


There are many approaches in communication to get the critical message across.


To challenge the efficiency of any communication on the basis of its form rather than the substance is very stupid [btw not pejoratively but lack intelligence].


Rather than focusing on the form of presentation of the Quran, what is most critical is the concepts and ideas which unfortunately 55% of the verses contain evil laden elements that inspire SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and even some Muslims.
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Old 12-16-2015, 12:17 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,037 times
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Quote:
Continuum Wrote:
That Muhammad was illiterate to prove he was not the author of the Quran was a farce.
I am 100% certain it is impossible for God to exists as real, therefore the Quran cannot be from a God but from a human or group of people.
Forget about the challenge because of your lack of knowledge about religion and Arabic literature and language, but if you know any atheist who understand the Arabic language will help you to understand it batter. you said you are 100% certain that God do not exist, one may ask that just like you are 100% certain God do not exist, there are 5.9 billion people who are 100% certain that God exist. May be one day you change your views about God existence.
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Old 12-16-2015, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
Forget about the challenge because of your lack of knowledge about religion and Arabic literature and language, but if you know any atheist who understand the Arabic language will help you to understand it batter. you said you are 100% certain that God do not exist, one may ask that just like you are 100% certain God do not exist, there are 5.9 billion people who are 100% certain that God exist. May be one day you change your views about God existence.
Another example of why 100% reproduction is silly and not the norm is the production songs.
On the matter of songs, no two songs that has been produced ever has been exactly the same in every aspects possible. It can be done but it will just be a replica of the original or the person will be charged with plagiarism.
So while each song is different, they can be the same in terms of common genre, subject matters, such as different music groups, pop, rock, classical, etc.


I dare claim I am an credible expert in religions and the philosophy of religion. I don't think you are from what I gathered from your posts, unless you can prove otherwise.
I am also VERY familiar with Islam in terms of the Quran [not so much the Ahadiths and other texts]. In any case, I do not believe the Quran is the ONLY determining core text of what is Islam.


As for the Arabic language factor, this is not the critical factor in understanding Islam. I have challenged Woodrow LI on what I can missed out from the Quran if I were to rely solely on the English translations.
I am confident I will not missed out any thing critical from the Quran if I read the English translations especially when I cross reference whatever issues encountered to 45++ English translations of the Quran. Note not 4 or 5 but 45 Forty Five English translations. In addition I apply the hermeneutical method in researching and understanding the Quran, Islam and Muhammad.


As for appx. 6 billion people believing God exists, note once 100% of people [who reflect] believe the Earth was flat or the Sun revolves or moves over the Earth based on common sense perception.


The general rule is the majority NEVER hold the truth of reality until the matured minority discover the truth and spread that to the majority.
Note Scientific knowledge which is often discovered by one Scientist or a few or a small group of them.
As for other truths, it is the minority of philosophers and other truth seekers who establish the truth of reality.
This is the default principle.


So forget about 6 billion theists or 1.5 billion Muslims confirming any truths that are not justified with evidence and philosophical refinements.
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Old 12-16-2015, 09:14 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,037 times
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Quote:
Continuum Wrote:
Another example of why 100% reproduction is silly and not the norm is the production songs.
On the matter of songs, no two songs that has been produced ever has been exactly the same in every aspects possible..............
Yet you are missing the point here, Muhammad(PBUH) was Illiterate which means he never read any literature nor he can write, what he use to do is, he dictated the verses of the Quran and the moment he spoke these word, immediately they become part of the Quran so he had no chance to review it or correct it and he did it so perfectly that Poets, philosophers, and all other people failed to produce the likes of Quran and for 1400 years no one could done it, only they had to do was produce a chapter like it and they had advantage of write it down and then discuss it with each other and review it, if there is a mistake correct it, they had unlimited time and they spent their whole life but failed to:

1. Replicate the Qur’ans literary form
2. Match the unique linguistic genre of the Qur’an
3. Select and arrange words like that of the Qur’an.
4. Select and arrange particles like that of the Qur’an.
5. Match the Qur’ans phonetic superiority.
6. Equal the frequency of rhetorical devices
7. Match the level of informativity
8. Equal the Qur’ans conciseness and flexibility

How many chances are there for a person who is illiterate and utter words and someone memorize it and also write it down, how many chances of slip of tongue, mistakes are there and how many chances are there that professionals can / cannot meet to above mentioned 1-8 points, they have advantage of numbers as well against only one and illiterate person who just spoke those word without having a chance to review it. As an atheist, at-least you must acknowledge that one.
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