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Old 12-21-2015, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461

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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
As Muslims we cannot put prize money on Quran because it is a sin and also gambling is Haram but is it not a bigger prize of proving the Islam wrong which critics and Islamophobic spent their whole life ? is it not worth more then money ? if there was even a 0.1% chance of producing the likes of Quran they will never miss it, btw there are several people and groups who took that challenge very seriously here are some:
Musaylamah, Ibn Al-Mukaffa‘, Abu’l-’Ala Al-Marri, Yahya b. Al-Hakam al-Ghazal, Sayyid ‘Ali Muhammad, Ibn al-Rawandi, Bassar bin Burd, Sahib Ibn ‘Abbad, Abu’l – ‘Atahiya and the contemporary Christian Missionaries who developed the ‘True Furqan’. They spent 7 years and millions of dollars on True Furqan but not got even close to Quran.
Based on theories and principles from real life and reality, I am certain the Quran Challenge is silly and has no significance to establish the truth the Quran is from a real God and delivered to a man via an angel.


I don't know what are the circumstances and conditions surrounding the examples of The Challenges you mentioned. Are there records of such challenges and explanation why they failed?


Since the issue is so critical I am sure the Islamic Community can easily raise $10 million dollars for anyone who can win the The Challenge. It is need to not be seen as a gambling as they can contribute the money to Charities or non-profit organization with the money.


That said, this is a very silly challenge.



Quote:
Dont be so naive, Salah is the one of the five pillars of Islam and because the Christian Missionaries are PHD in trickery and deception thats why first they made him appear as Muslim and debate him and then amazingly he Converted to Christian, Farhan Qurashi was never a muslim, if you are in doubt than read The Call of the Minaret by Kenneth Cragg you will know.
If you have listened to the video from Farhan Qureshi you would have understood how difficult it is for any one to leave their religion. It must have taken really extra-ordinary evidence to convince one to convert from one religion to another especially with very intelligent people like Farhan and Nabeel.
Therefore the technicality of a ritual [salah] is a small issue in the context of the whole of Islam.


Qurashi was never a Muslim? What???
Basically any one who has declared the Sahada, believe in the LAST DAY is a Muslim. To reinforce one's Muslim-ness one will have to practice the 5 pillars to the best of their ability.
WHO ARE YOU [me or Kenneth Cragg] to judge he was never a Muslim?
As an Ahmadiya, Farhan was technically a Muslim and also a Muslim when he converted to be a Sunni.


Quote:
They were all religious people in Myanmar, I wonder why no one Tag them Buddhists Terrorism? there are evil persons in the world who can use whatever justification they find but its not mean that there justification is correct. No one blamed Christianity for this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
Generally there is no restrictions, pre-qualification, rules, etc. for any one to join any religion.
The worst evil persons, potential serial killers, terrorists can be a Buddhist, Christian or Muslim or any other mainstream religion in the World. The majority of believers are born into the religion because the parents were religious or the country is of a majority religion.


Therefore if a serial killer [or any evil prone person] join a religion or is born into a religion, one cannot blame the religion.
This is basic logic and rationality.
Do you dispute this? Need an answer to this.


This is the same with violent and evil prone humans who are born into Buddhist families or join to be a Buddhist.
Thus if these Buddhists commit terrible evils, it has nothing to do with the religion because there is nothing in the religion that catalyze and inspire them to do evil. It is due to their inherent evil nature that the commit evil.


If an evil Muslim killed another out of jealousy and anger, that probably has nothing to do with Islam. That is because it is due to the person's sensitive and angry nature.


However there is a big difference with Islam in contrast to other religions.
Islam-in-part [besides the good element] has evil laden elements within the Quran [core of Islam] that catalyze and inspire SOME [not all but a large pool of 300 million] to commit terrible evils and violence.
Besides inspiring evil prone Muslims, the evil elements of Islam also inspire and motivate those who are basically good to commit evil. We hear of such stories all the time e.g. St Bernardino and other goody-two-shoes to turn up evil in the news and surprise their families and friends.


The evil Buddhists has no opportunity at all to use any justifications from their religion and holy texts because there exists no opportunities therein for them to justify.
As for Christianity, the NT has an overriding PACIFIST maxim. i.e. 'love your enemies', etc.


For Islam there are tons of opportunities in the Quran for evil prone Muslims and even good [some zealous one] Muslims to justify their terrible evils and violence committed on non-Muslims.

Quote:
Every verse of the Quran which is about fighting has the context of war and always the next verse is about peace is better, fight is the last resort but there is not a single verse which says you kill innocent people in fact in Islam if someone kills your whole family you cannot kill his family in response but the killer. even if US attacked Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria, Islam do not allow killing of innocent people other than who are fighting or soldiers.
Don't try to pull a fast one on me, especially when I have read the whole Quran as least >50 times and >100 times on certain chapters.


Note this;
3:151. We [Allah] shall cast terror into the hearts of those [infidels] who disbelieve because they [infidels] ascribe unto Allah partners [idols and deities], for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their [infidels] habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong doers [infidels].


There are no 'peace' related verse that followed the above.
Some verses related to 'fighting' may be followed with conditions but they are very vague which leave room for Muslims to kill non-Muslims and even other Muslims.


The point is a holy text which is supposedly religious or a way of life [deen] in this case should be idiot-proof in the matter of potential abuse towards evils and violence.
'Idiot Proof' meant even an idiot or stupid person will have no opportunity to misinterpret anything because there is nothing with evil potential for any one to abuse it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poka-yoke - idiot, mistake proofing.


Buddhism, Jainism and the likes which are founded by very wise leaders are idiot-proof as far as evils and violence are concern.



Quote:
Talibans who are fighting in Afghanistan and are very strong group never attacked innocent foreigners, in fact the people they captured, some of them became Muslims when they were released. How ISIS which came from no where, no one heard of them before, Rise up so strongly and attacked innocent people in the west, with so perfectly and they were feeling like at home while attacking like charlie hebdo and paris attack (you can check it out the critical analyses of those video by yourself) and with so conveniently they always carry their passport with them and left them on the crime scenes to facilitate the Police have you ever considered the other side of the picture?
Taliban victims became Muslims??? Are you aware of the Stockholm Effect??


The Taliban never attacked innocent foreigners??
You cannot be that ignorant of 911 and others evil and violent act by Al-Qaeda and the many violent incidents by Taliban while they were in Afghanistan.
The fact is you as a Muslim is naturally inclined to ignore unpleasant facts against Islam to relieve the fears and protect your passage to an eternal life and avoid hell.

Quote:
ISIS is the creation of US + Mossad, thats why i said they deceived you because they are made for that purpose, but you are media guy so keep watching Fox news. If you lived a long life, you will see the completion of their real agenda in Syria, I hope you live a long life brother, I really mean it about your long life
Don't insult your own intelligence on this.
If I were US or Mossad, I will sue you to hell because I know you cannot provide the facts on this.


Quote:
when you hate something you can never be unbiased about that this is human psychology, you can ask an expert. My argument is based on concrete evidence + historical evidence + logical explanation you can ask a neutral person on my argument about authenticity of the Quran. Authenticity of Quran even acknowledged by various critics as well.
We have discuss the irrelevance of 'hate' in relation to religion.
I agree if one has a negative feelings and emotions to anything one is likely to be bias.
However I am very well aware of this theory and has taken very deliberate serious steps not to fall into the trappings of any negative feelings and emotions. I rely on the principles, philosophy and practices of Buddhism to deal with this. [btw, I am not a Buddhist proper, just adopt their relevant practices].


As a Muslims you cannot and Must not be objective, otherwise it is not effectively for your soteriological [salvational] purposes. This is why theistic religion has to be based on Faith [belief without proofs and reasons].
Concrete evidence??
So where is the CONCRETE evidence for the existence of a God who delivered the perfect Quran?


Quote:
I think you added extra words after battles which is foul play. and yes there was a battle where some Hafiz of Quran were killed but not all of them, not even 50% so there were thousands of people who know Quran by heart were still there and in Islam there is a proper process about memorizing Quran, even on this time, we are on this forum, thousands of Muslims are memorizing Quran now.
Muhammad were involved in robberies, raids and battles after he migrated to Medina.
This is a fact and of course no robbers and evil people will ever admit they have done wrong.
Note https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravan_raids


It is a significant % that worried Uthman ibn Affan.
Btw, at the time of Muhammad's death, he only had a few close companions and followers who followed him from Mecca where he made most of his recitations. There were no thousands of people who knew the whole of the Quran by heart. Don't try to bullsh:t on this issue.


Quote:
Why you never asked your teacher during examination to give you book so you can write all the answers ? simply because it was test so No cheating similarly if God appears to all mankind then everyone will believe in him and the main reason for sending the humans to earth (which is test) will be finished. You will see God Almighty but after the test is over when you die and there is no coming back then. God Almighty given his signs and when you will die, you will be asked about those signs and you will say yes i saw it but give me one more chance and there will be no more chance.
A teacher is not a God which is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and Omni-whatever.
When God is so powerful why should he do all the silly things to test people then torture them in the worst terrible manner if they failed.
What kind of God is this?
Obviously there is something very immoral in this sort of play.


Why Muslims and other theists end up in such a cornered position is because God is false and was invented to deal with some psychological desperations. Thereafter they have to give all sorts of silly excuse to defend he existence of their false invented God.
Note the Problem of Evil is one checkmate move that God cannot exists.
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:48 AM
 
88 posts, read 34,969 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Based on theories and principles from real life and reality, I am certain the Quran Challenge is silly and has no significance to establish the truth the Quran is from a real God and delivered to a man via an angel.

I don't know what are the circumstances and conditions surrounding the examples of The Challenges you mentioned. Are there records of such challenges and explanation why they failed?

Since the issue is so critical I am sure the Islamic Community can easily raise $10 million dollars for anyone who can win the The Challenge. It is need to not be seen as a gambling as they can contribute the money to Charities or non-profit organization with the money.

That said, this is a very silly challenge.
Its may be silly to you because you do not believe in God existence.

Musaylamah produce the verse against Surah al Kausar and you check it by yourself
The elephant.
What is the elephant?
And who shall tell you what is the elephant?
He has a ropy tail and a long trunk.
This is a [mere] trifle of our Lord’s creations.

I wish you could understand the Arabic because it looks more disaster

There is also True Furqan available and since you studied Quran so you will know even reading in English and in arabic it has no match with Quran.

Quote:
If you have listened to the video from Farhan Qureshi you would have understood how difficult it is for any one to leave their religion. It must have taken really extra-ordinary evidence to convince one to convert from one religion to another especially with very intelligent people like Farhan and Nabeel.
Therefore the technicality of a ritual [salah] is a small issue in the context of the whole of Islam.


Qurashi was never a Muslim? What???
Basically any one who has declared the Sahada, believe in the LAST DAY is a Muslim. To reinforce one's Muslim-ness one will have to practice the 5 pillars to the best of their ability.
WHO ARE YOU [me or Kenneth Cragg] to judge he was never a Muslim?
As an Ahmadiya, Farhan was technically a Muslim and also a Muslim when he converted to be a Sunni.
Anyone who do not believe that Muhammad(PBUH) is the last and final messenger, is non-Muslim, Farhan and Nabeel were Ahmadiya who are not muslims. so when christian missionaries cannot find a scholar who converted to Christianity they thought why not we made a Fake one. and if this is the criteria then you can search it on youtube and internet that how many priests are converted to Islam and then preached Islam there numbers are huge.

Quote:
Generally there is no restrictions, pre-qualification, rules, etc. for any one to join any religion.
The worst evil persons, potential serial killers, terrorists can be a Buddhist, Christian or Muslim or any other mainstream religion in the World. The majority of believers are born into the religion because the parents were religious or the country is of a majority religion.


Therefore if a serial killer [or any evil prone person] join a religion or is born into a religion, one cannot blame the religion.
This is basic logic and rationality.
Do you dispute this? Need an answer to this.

This is the same with violent and evil prone humans who are born into Buddhist families or join to be a Buddhist.
Thus if these Buddhists commit terrible evils, it has nothing to do with the religion because there is nothing in the religion that catalyze and inspire them to do evil. It is due to their inherent evil nature that the commit evil.

If an evil Muslim killed another out of jealousy and anger, that probably has nothing to do with Islam. That is because it is due to the person's sensitive and angry nature.

However there is a big difference with Islam in contrast to other religions.
Islam-in-part [besides the good element] has evil laden elements within the Quran [core of Islam] that catalyze and inspire SOME [not all but a large pool of 300 million] to commit terrible evils and violence.
Besides inspiring evil prone Muslims, the evil elements of Islam also inspire and motivate those who are basically good to commit evil. We hear of such stories all the time e.g. St Bernardino and other goody-two-shoes to turn up evil in the news and surprise their families and friends.

The evil Buddhists has no opportunity at all to use any justifications from their religion and holy texts because there exists no opportunities therein for them to justify.
As for Christianity, the NT has an overriding PACIFIST maxim. i.e. 'love your enemies', etc.

For Islam there are tons of opportunities in the Quran for evil prone Muslims and even good [some zealous one] Muslims to justify their terrible evils and violence committed on non-Muslims.
If someone misinterpret Islam then its his fault and also there was no ISIS before US attacked Iraq over utterly false allegation of weapon of Mass Destruction which later on they admitted that there was no weapon of WMDs there and they openly say without a drop of shame in their eyes. Now tell me whose family were killed in the bombardment, innocent men women, children then what choice he had ? other then ISIS ? on the other hand ISIS is also Yankees created by CIA and Mossad, I dont say that your own people saying this so US is responsible for all those so called ISIS Boogeymen, They created a demon and now he is out of control.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU2avVIHde8

Quote:
Don't try to pull a fast one on me, especially when I have read the whole Quran as least >50 times and >100 times on certain chapters.


Note this;
3:151. We [Allah] shall cast terror into the hearts of those [infidels] who disbelieve because they [infidels] ascribe unto Allah partners [idols and deities], for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their [infidels] habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong doers [infidels].


There are no 'peace' related verse that followed the above.
Some verses related to 'fighting' may be followed with conditions but they are very vague which leave room for Muslims to kill non-Muslims and even other Muslims.


The point is a holy text which is supposedly religious or a way of life [deen] in this case should be idiot-proof in the matter of potential abuse towards evils and violence.
'Idiot Proof' meant even an idiot or stupid person will have no opportunity to misinterpret anything because there is nothing with evil potential for any one to abuse it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poka-yoke - idiot, mistake proofing.
In the context there is no chance of misinterpretation and also it is mentioned in this verse clearly that Allah cast terror in those infidels not Muslims so Allah is the one who can cast terror in infidels heart who were trying to kill Muslims.

“The promise of casting awe and fear into the hearts of the disbelievers in this verse was made in the background of the battle of Uhud when the disbelievers of Arabia marched back to Makkah without any obvious reason and inspite of defeat overtaking Muslim (Baydawi). However, after having covered a certain distance on their way to Makkah, they awoke to their folly. When they thought of marching back to Madinah, Allah Almighty filled their hearts with such awe and fear that they could not muster the courage to do so. The most they could do was to hire a Madinah-bound villager to go there and tell Muslims that theu were coming back. But, this whole deal came into the knowledge of the oly Prophet (p) in Madinah through revelation. He marched to Hamra al-Asad to apprehend them but they had already run away from there. This was the background in which the present verse was revealed.”

Quote:
Buddhism, Jainism and the likes which are founded by very wise leaders are idiot-proof as far as evils and violence are concern.
Yet there are evil and violent people in their religion, it doesn't helped.

Quote:
Taliban victims became Muslims??? Are you aware of the Stockholm Effect??

The Taliban never attacked innocent foreigners??
You cannot be that ignorant of 911 and others evil and violent act by Al-Qaeda and the many violent incidents by Taliban while they were in Afghanistan.
The fact is you as a Muslim is naturally inclined to ignore unpleasant facts against Islam to relieve the fears and protect your passage to an eternal life and avoid hell.
Stockholm Effect is hypothesis not a fact and it doesnt mean that this will surely happen.

First you need to know that Afghan Talibans and Al Qaeda is two different groups and I think you forgot the history that once Osama was Hero of US during Soviet invasion on Afghanistan and they are the ones who created Al Qaeda just like ISIS so US has history of such blunders.

9/11 is still unsolved case and there are no evidence which suggested Osama done it and if they had they would have showed it to the rest of the world but not the media speculation and your own people disagreed with Osama fairy tale and by examining those videos and blasts and building 7 even a child can see.

Quote:
Don't insult your own intelligence on this.
If I were US or Mossad, I will sue you to hell because I know you cannot provide the facts on this.
lol sue him not me and the people who are still in US and US citizen so why not you start with them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQkYtmewSpQ Specially this Guy he is awesome


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU2avVIHde8


Quote:
We have discuss the irrelevance of 'hate' in relation to religion.
I agree if one has a negative feelings and emotions to anything one is likely to be bias.
However I am very well aware of this theory and has taken very deliberate serious steps not to fall into the trappings of any negative feelings and emotions. I rely on the principles, philosophy and practices of Buddhism to deal with this. [btw, I am not a Buddhist proper, just adopt their relevant practices].

As a Muslims you cannot and Must not be objective, otherwise it is not effectively for your soteriological [salvational] purposes. This is why theistic religion has to be based on Faith [belief without proofs and reasons].
Concrete evidence??
So where is the CONCRETE evidence for the existence of a God who delivered the perfect Quran?
you are beating around the bushes, 1400 years old Quran found and matches with the Quran we have today is concrete evidence that Quran never changed. Why not you give me the concrete evidence that God do not exist.

Quote:
Muhammad were involved in robberies, raids and battles after he migrated to Medina.
This is a fact and of course no robbers and evil people will ever admit they have done wrong.
Note https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravan_raids


It is a significant % that worried Uthman ibn Affan.
Btw, at the time of Muhammad's death, he only had a few close companions and followers who followed him from Mecca where he made most of his recitations. There were no thousands of people who knew the whole of the Quran by heart. Don't try to bullsh:t on this issue.
Well the post is getting too lengthy so I will make it brief when Muslims left Makkah, all of their wealth was captured by the Meccan that time and they were selling them so it was more like taking it back other then raid.

Quote:
A teacher is not a God which is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and Omni-whatever.
When God is so powerful why should he do all the silly things to test people then torture them in the worst terrible manner if they failed.
What kind of God is this?
Obviously there is something very immoral in this sort of play.


Why Muslims and other theists end up in such a cornered position is because God is false and was invented to deal with some psychological desperations. Thereafter they have to give all sorts of silly excuse to defend he existence of their false invented God.
Note the Problem of Evil is one checkmate move that God cannot exists.
God created us and if someone is not thankful to his creator then he is the worse person. if one provide someone food and everything and when he gets better if he thanks a cockroach instead of him then what will that person think who provided everything to him and he is thanking a cockroach

Last edited by int007; 12-22-2015 at 12:16 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2015, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
Its may be silly to you because you do not believe in God existence.
I wish you could understand the Arabic because it looks more disaster

There is also True Furqan available and since you studied Quran so you will know even reading in English and in arabic it has no match with Quran.
I know it is silly because I understand the philosophy and principles underlying the Challenge.


Another example to support my point is the world of forgery.
Forgers over history are so good they can forge anything they want.
Of course there are genuine people who can duplicate any thing especially with the current technology.
The point is one can duplicate any thing up to 99.9% exactness but never 100% because of the subjective elements involved.
Therefore it is not difficult to duplicate the Quran [obviously with some changes to the concepts and ideas] in every details and aspect. If you want to match the tones one can use a wave synthesizer, oscillators. As for language there are so many linguistic experts who can duplicate another texts easily.


So it is a very silly challenge and has not critical significance to establish the truth of the Quran.


Quote:
Anyone who do not believe that Muhammad(PBUH) is the last and final messenger, is non-Muslim, Farhan and Nabeel were Ahmadiya who are not muslims. so when christian missionaries cannot find a scholar who converted to Christianity they thought why not we made a Fake one. and if this is the criteria then you can search it on youtube and internet that how many priests are converted to Islam and then preached Islam there numbers are huge.
I am sure the Ahamdiyya believed the Quran is the final revelation from Allah. That Muhammad is the final messenger is not a critical factor to decide what is a Muslim fundamentally but only to Sunnis. Ahmadiyas never claimed their founder to be the last messenger but merely as an expounder [to explain clearer] of the Quran.
The Ahamadiyya are technically Muslims in accordance to the Quran.
Note Farhan Qureshi who converted to Sunni is definitely a Muslim in accordance to Sunni's interpretations.


Quote:
If someone misinterpret Islam then its his fault and also there was no ISIS before US attacked Iraq over utterly false allegation of weapon of Mass Destruction which later on they admitted that there was no weapon of WMDs there and they openly say without a drop of shame in their eyes. Now tell me whose family were killed in the bombardment, innocent men women, children then what choice he had ? other then ISIS ? on the other hand ISIS is also Yankees created by CIA and Mossad, I dont say that your own people saying this so US is responsible for all those so called ISIS Boogeymen, They created a demon and now he is out of control.
I ask again, WHO ARE YOU [as a slave of Allah and a fallible human] to judge whether a technically recognized Muslim has misinterpreted Islam from the Quran.


I agree somehow the US and its allies plus Russia did make way for ISIS to emerge especially after Obama had stupidly withdrew troops from Iraq. Those responsible should be punished accordingly [secular laws] but not in accordance to Islamic Law.


The US and others did not intentionally or deliberately create ISIS and other terror groups.

However how ISIS and other terror groups emerged is from the malignant potential of the evil elements of Islam [in part]. These malignant evil elements are like dormant cancer cells in the body, when there is a weakness in the immunity of the body, they will strike and multiply.


This is what happened with the malignant elements [combination of evil laden elements in the Quran and SOME evil prone Muslims] within Islam which emerges when there are weaknesses in forces that suppress them.
This how Islamist terror groups emerging in the fringes and the cracks of weakness in the recognized government, e.g. ISIS due to weakness in Syria and Iraq, Boko Haram in the thick jungle border towns of Nigeria and other countries, the Abu Sayaf in deep south Phillipines, Taliban in the mountain ranges of Afghanistan, etc.
In addition, these terrorists are cowards in attacking soft-targets on innocent people, in beaches, malls, supermarkets, concert hall, near football stadiums, trains, passenger planes, etc.



Quote:
In the context there is no chance of misinterpretation and also it is mentioned in this verse clearly that Allah cast terror in those infidels not Muslims so Allah is the one who can cast terror in infidels heart who were trying to kill Muslims.
If you read along that line, if Allah show the examples of casting terror in the hearts of infidels to be followed by Muslims. When Muslims cast actual terror they will claim it is the will of Allah.

Quote:
“The promise of casting awe and fear into the hearts of the disbelievers in this verse was made in the background of the battle of Uhud when the disbelievers of Arabia marched back to Makkah without any obvious reason and inspite of defeat overtaking Muslim (Baydawi). However, after having covered a certain distance on their way to Makkah, they awoke to their folly. When they thought of marching back to Madinah, Allah Almighty filled their hearts with such awe and fear that they could not muster the courage to do so. The most they could do was to hire a Madinah-bound villager to go there and tell Muslims that theu were coming back. But, this whole deal came into the knowledge of the oly Prophet (p) in Madinah through revelation. He marched to Hamra al-Asad to apprehend them but they had already run away from there. This was the background in which the present verse was revealed.”
We have discussed this before.
The related stories in the Quran are essentially to represent the principles that are to be extracted for application to the Muslims.


Thus when the Muslims attack the infidels at any time in a similar conditions of war against the infidels, then they are to apply the same strategies as reflected in the examples and stories.
At present SOME Muslims has put themselves in a state of Islamic-based war against the West with USA as the Great Satan. Since they are at war, they apply the same principles of war as stated in the Quran. They also use the war examples that Muhammad participated and the evils and violence Muhammad committed during those wars.


Note there are many stories and examples in the Quran where Muslims need to understand the generic principles behind it and apply them in similar real life conditions and circumstance.
This is the Standard Operating Procedure with most scripture based religions.



Quote:
Yet there are evil and violent people in their religion, it doesn't helped.
It is very unfortunate you do not understand this basic principle and theory.


Here are some analogies from secular conditions;
Say a family has 10 children.
One happen to be a black sheep and committed all sorts of crimes and is a serial killer.
All other 9 children are good and near perfect citizens.
In this case [normal] can anyone blame the parents for their bad teachings.
No, the cause is because that evil sibling suffer from some kind of mental illness due to faulty connection of neurons in his brain.


Take Switzerland for example as very developed country with very high standard of living, good governance, a large % of population own gun and it has the lowest crime rate in the World.
The fact is there are still crime in Switzerland as committed by evil prone people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland
Yes, evil people exists in Switzerland but in this case we cannot blame the government which is doing its bests with policies which are against crime.


Similarly,
Yes, there are evil pone people who are Buddhists or Jains, but we cannot blame Buddhism and Jainism because these religions do not has any leading verses that inspire the believers to kill non-believers.
Therefore we cannot blame the religion, in this case it is solely the evil prone believers who are at fault.


However it is different with Islam.
There are tons of leading verses in the Quran that lead and inspire SOME Muslims to kill and act violently against non-Muslims. To these evil prone Muslims they are merely complying to please Allah and they do not recognize their acts as evil at all.
It is only humanity that can see the acts of these evil prone Muslims as evil and violent.


Quote:
Stockholm Effect is hypothesis not a fact and it doesnt mean that this will surely happen.
It is a proven and well studied psychological behavior.
I agree it do not happen all the time but only to a % who are vulnerable to it.
Thus when such acts as victims converting during capture or following it despite suffering violence [torture and rapes] and they still they aligned favorably with the enemy, it is likely to be due the Stockholm Effect.

Quote:
First you need to know that Afghan Talibans and Al Qaeda is two different groups and I think you forgot the history that once Osama was Hero of US during Soviet invasion on Afghanistan and they are the ones who created Al Qaeda just like ISIS so US has history of such blunders.

9/11 is still unsolved case and there are no evidence which suggested Osama done it and if they had they would have showed it to the rest of the world but not the media speculation and your own people disagreed with Osama fairy tale and by examining those videos and blasts and building 7 even a child can see.
As I mentioned the US [stupid and ignorant] and its allies did play a part in enabling Al Qaeda and ISIS to emerge from their malignant potentials.


I say the US and its allies government are very stupid for not understanding the evil and malignant potential of Islam [in part]. They only see the better good side of Islam for the majority but is totally ignorant and deliberately want to be blind to the evil side of Islam and its ethos.
It is the same for the very stupid Islam apologists who failed to see the 500 pound gorilla [the evil part] of Islam.


When the US used the Taliban to fight the Russians, they overlooked and were ignorant then [and even today] of the malignant and evil side [besides the good side] of Islam hold on SOME Muslims who were bent on fighting for the cause of Allah towards world dominations and eliminating the kuffar if not to subdue them.
When the US and others opened a gap and expose its weakness, those evil prone Muslims who were then well armed [stupidly by the US and others] unleashed their malignant potentials for the cause of Allah with the life and their wealth.


Even if 911 has nothing to do with Osama, it is inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran [supported by Hadiths and the martial ethos of Muhammad]


Quote:
you are beating around the bushes, 1400 years old Quran found and matches with the Quran we have today is concrete evidence that Quran never changed. Why not you give me the concrete evidence that God do not exist.
You would be intellectually bankrupt if you insist I provide proof for a negative.
Intellectually, the prior onus is always on the positive claimant to provide proofs.
Generally, there is no need for anyone to prove a negative
However I have taken the extra effort to prove [not a negative] but God is impossible to start with.
The idea of God is a non-starter just like a square-circle.

Quote:
Well the post is getting too lengthy so I will make it brief when Muslims left Makkah, all of their wealth was captured by the Meccan that time and they were selling them so it was more like taking it back other then raid.
To cut the story short, this is a silly excuse.
Those who left were mostly the poor from the lower rungs of society.
The richer ones had ample time to move their assets to Medina.
A raid is a raid, a robbery is a robbery, there is no two ways about them in this case.


Quote:
God created us and if someone is not thankful to his creator then he is the worse person. if one provide someone food and everything and when he gets better if he thanks a cockroach instead of him then what will that person think who provided everything to him and he is thanking a cockroach
This is non-sequitor.
You have to prove God exists first before you can place any credibility that God created us.


I assert human invented God [as a transcendental idea but can never be real] solely due to some psychological weaknesses arising from an existential crisis.
If you read the Quran, the most critical factor for a Muslim is the threat of facing death [many verses to remind one is mortal and there is a threat of inevitable death]. This threat scare the sh:t of many and thus they have to cling to God like there is no tomorrow then jump at the promise of God to assure them of eternal life via a covenant [agreement] with Allah.


When a believer is scare the sh:t of death and going to hell, they will do anything God asked them to do to ensure they go the heaven and avoid hell as promised by Allah in the Quran.
What is unfortunate with Islam [in part] is it contains very loosely used evil laden elements in the Quran that SOME evil prone hinges on to comply [piously and sincerely] to please Allah thus culminating in the terrible evils and violence committed on the kuffar and even other Muslims.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-22-2015 at 09:59 PM..
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Old 12-23-2015, 04:01 PM
 
88 posts, read 34,969 times
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Quote:
Continuum Wrote:

I know it is silly because I understand the philosophy and principles underlying the Challenge.

Another example to support my point is the world of forgery.
Forgers over history are so good they can forge anything they want.
Of course there are genuine people who can duplicate any thing especially with the current technology.
The point is one can duplicate any thing up to 99.9% exactness but never 100% because of the subjective elements involved.
Therefore it is not difficult to duplicate the Quran [obviously with some changes to the concepts and ideas] in every details and aspect. If you want to match the tones one can use a wave synthesizer, oscillators. As for language there are so many linguistic experts who can duplicate another texts easily.

So it is a very silly challenge and has not critical significance to establish the truth of the Quran.
This is not the case with Quran, and was not written by one or two people, if thousands of people memorize and speak the exact same words and also have in writing which also matches every word then there is not a .00001% chance of mistake.

Quote:
I am sure the Ahamdiyya believed the Quran is the final revelation from Allah. That Muhammad is the final messenger is not a critical factor to decide what is a Muslim fundamentally but only to Sunnis. Ahmadiyas never claimed their founder to be the last messenger but merely as an expounder [to explain clearer] of the Quran.
The Ahamadiyya are technically Muslims in accordance to the Quran.
Note Farhan Qureshi who converted to Sunni is definitely a Muslim in accordance to Sunni's interpretations.
You should research on Ahamdiyya before making statement blindly. You dont have to disagree every time by turning the eyes from Truth, its difficult when your Ego comes in the way. Ahamadiya believed in Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani as prophet and Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani also claimed that he is Jesus(PBUH) which is laughable. In Islam anyone who claim he is prophet after Muhammad(PBUH) is nonmuslim. it doesnt matter if they believe in Quran or not. I will make it more clear for example if A Muslim believe in Quran, Muhammad(PBUH) and perform the Five pillars of Islam and believe everything which is in Islam but if he does not believe in Jesus(PBUH) as messenger of Allah then he is not Muslim at all not a bit and all of his good deeds will be nullified and believe me you dont want to lecture me on this one, you may have read the Quran but you know nothing about Islam.

Quote:
This is what happened with the malignant elements [combination of evil laden elements in the Quran and SOME evil prone Muslims] within Islam which emerges when there are weaknesses in forces that suppress them.
This how Islamist terror groups emerging in the fringes and the cracks of weakness in the recognized government, e.g. ISIS due to weakness in Syria and Iraq, Boko Haram in the thick jungle border towns of Nigeria and other countries, the Abu Sayaf in deep south Phillipines, Taliban in the mountain ranges of Afghanistan, etc.
In addition, these terrorists are cowards in attacking soft-targets on innocent people, in beaches, malls, supermarkets, concert hall, near football stadiums, trains, passenger planes, etc.
If ISIS or anyone is committing Such acts then they will be punished by Allah accordingly because in the Quran it is clearly mentioned that killing of innocent person is Biggest sin. I think you should remove Afghan Talibans from that list because they never committed such acts and also US is engaging them through dialogues and searching for a escape or Face saving and if you think they are terrorists then protest against US because they are having dialog for political solution with terrorists. They are Freedom fighters and defending their country against foreign invasion.

Quote:
If you read along that line, if Allah show the examples of casting terror in the hearts of infidels to be followed by Muslims. When Muslims cast actual terror they will claim it is the will of Allah.

We have discussed this before.
The related stories in the Quran are essentially to represent the principles that are to be extracted for application to the Muslims.

Thus when the Muslims attack the infidels at any time in a similar conditions of war against the infidels, then they are to apply the same strategies as reflected in the examples and stories.
At present SOME Muslims has put themselves in a state of Islamic-based war against the West with USA as the Great Satan. Since they are at war, they apply the same principles of war as stated in the Quran. They also use the war examples that Muhammad participated and the evils and violence Muhammad committed during those wars.

Note there are many stories and examples in the Quran where Muslims need to understand the generic principles behind it and apply them in similar real life conditions and circumstance.
This is the Standard Operating Procedure with most scripture based religions.
I hope you understand English so I want you to have a look once more:

“The promise of casting awe and fear into the hearts of the disbelievers in this verse was made in the background of the battle of Uhud when the disbelievers of Arabia marched back to Makkah without any obvious reason and inspite of defeat overtaking Muslim (Baydawi). However, after having covered a certain distance on their way to Makkah, they awoke to their folly. When they thought of marching back to Madinah, Allah Almighty filled their hearts with such awe and fear that they could not muster the courage to do so. The most they could do was to hire a Madinah-bound villager to go there and tell Muslims that theu were coming back. But, this whole deal came into the knowledge of the Holy Prophet (p) in Madinah through revelation. He marched to Hamra al-Asad to apprehend them but they had already run away from there. This was the background in which the present verse was revealed.”

They marched back to Makkah to attack so Allah cast terror in their heart. Terror was not cast by killing innocent people, Allah cast terror in their heart to prevent them from Killing Muslims.

Quote:
It is very unfortunate you do not understand this basic principle and theory.

Here are some analogies from secular conditions;
Say a family has 10 children.
One happen to be a black sheep and committed all sorts of crimes and is a serial killer.
All other 9 children are good and near perfect citizens.
In this case [normal] can anyone blame the parents for their bad teachings.
No, the cause is because that evil sibling suffer from some kind of mental illness due to faulty connection of neurons in his brain.

Take Switzerland for example as very developed country with very high standard of living, good governance, a large % of population own gun and it has the lowest crime rate in the World.
The fact is there are still crime in Switzerland as committed by evil prone people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland
Yes, evil people exists in Switzerland but in this case we cannot blame the government which is doing its bests with policies which are against crime.

Similarly,
Yes, there are evil pone people who are Buddhists or Jains, but we cannot blame Buddhism and Jainism because these religions do not has any leading verses that inspire the believers to kill non-believers.
Therefore we cannot blame the religion, in this case it is solely the evil prone believers who are at fault.

However it is different with Islam.
There are tons of leading verses in the Quran that lead and inspire SOME Muslims to kill and act violently against non-Muslims. To these evil prone Muslims they are merely complying to please Allah and they do not recognize their acts as evil at all.
It is only humanity that can see the acts of these evil prone Muslims as evil and violent.
People in Switzerland are not yet being exposed to a situation where they get murder and bombed over a false allegation of WMDs and after the whole country is destroyed by the evils and they laugh and say well actually there was no WMDs and after killing millions of innocent men, women and children they say we made a mistake. There was no ISIS before US invasion of Iraq and when there is chaos, there is always chance of exploitation to mislead anyone whose whole family got killed.

Quote:
It is a proven and well studied psychological behavior.
I agree it do not happen all the time but only to a % who are vulnerable to it.
Thus when such acts as victims converting during capture or following it despite suffering violence [torture and rapes] and they still they aligned favorably with the enemy, it is likely to be due the Stockholm Effect.
Yeah when it comes to Muslims this theory always proved right (double standards)

Quote:
As I mentioned the US [stupid and ignorant] and its allies did play a part in enabling Al Qaeda and ISIS to emerge from their malignant potentials.

I say the US and its allies government are very stupid for not understanding the evil and malignant potential of Islam [in part]. They only see the better good side of Islam for the majority but is totally ignorant and deliberately want to be blind to the evil side of Islam and its ethos.
It is the same for the very stupid Islam apologists who failed to see the 500 pound gorilla [the evil part] of Islam.

When the US used the Taliban to fight the Russians, they overlooked and were ignorant then [and even today] of the malignant and evil side [besides the good side] of Islam hold on SOME Muslims who were bent on fighting for the cause of Allah towards world dominations and eliminating the kuffar if not to subdue them.
When the US and others opened a gap and expose its weakness, those evil prone Muslims who were then well armed [stupidly by the US and others] unleashed their malignant potentials for the cause of Allah with the life and their wealth.

Even if 911 has nothing to do with Osama, it is inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran [supported by Hadiths and the martial ethos of Muhammad]
If 9/11 has nothing to do with Osama then its clearly something to do with US Govt. + Mossad why not accept the truth that your own govt. did it. As an Atheist you people believe in science but when it comes to 9/11 you even defy the laws of physics and why you people always turn your face away from these facts. I want you to deny these facts about 9/11.
BTW he is not Muslim


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S10Aotp_tvo

Quote:
This is non-sequitor.
You have to prove God exists first before you can place any credibility that God created us.

I assert human invented God [as a transcendental idea but can never be real] solely due to some psychological weaknesses arising from an existential crisis.
If you read the Quran, the most critical factor for a Muslim is the threat of facing death [many verses to remind one is mortal and there is a threat of inevitable death]. This threat scare the sh:t of many and thus they have to cling to God like there is no tomorrow then jump at the promise of God to assure them of eternal life via a covenant [agreement] with Allah.

When a believer is scare the sh:t of death and going to hell, they will do anything God asked them to do to ensure they go the heaven and avoid hell as promised by Allah in the Quran.
What is unfortunate with Islam [in part] is it contains very loosely used evil laden elements in the Quran that SOME evil prone hinges on to comply [piously and sincerely] to please Allah thus culminating in the terrible evils and violence committed on the kuffar and even other Muslims.
First of all, Muslims do not get afraid of death because we know this life is a test and its temporary, it is you who afraid of dying who think they will became insect after dying.

as I Said I dont take your words which means nothing and has no credibility, provide a verse of the Quran which says killing of innocent people is OK, if you really want to prove a point then provide evidence instead of your philosophies and imaginations.
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Old 12-23-2015, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by int007 View Post
This is not the case with Quran, and was not written by one or two people, if thousands of people memorize and speak the exact same words and also have in writing which also matches every word then there is not a .00001% chance of mistake.
Note, at one time millions and almost all humans in the know believe the Earth was flat because the evidence then was so obvious. It was the same with the Sun moving over or around the Earth. So your 'thousands of people' justification is invalid.
Note there are tons of research being done on why the current Quran is not the same as the original Muhammad recited [if only Muhammad has existed and done so] as delivered from Allah [no proof Allah exists] via Angel Gabriel [only if angels exists].
Note the amount of doubts above that is loaded against the Quran.
That there is a current Quran as it is, is most likely to be authored by a person or groups of person.


Why you think the way you do is due to an existential crisis with psychological and emotional basis to ignore reality and the truth.


Quote:
You should research on Ahamdiyya before making statement blindly. You dont have to disagree every time by turning the eyes from Truth, its difficult when your Ego comes in the way. Ahamadiya believed in Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani as prophet and Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani also claimed that he is Jesus(PBUH) which is laughable. In Islam anyone who claim he is prophet after Muhammad(PBUH) is nonmuslim. it doesnt matter if they believe in Quran or not. I will make it more clear for example if A Muslim believe in Quran, Muhammad(PBUH) and perform the Five pillars of Islam and believe everything which is in Islam but if he does not believe in Jesus(PBUH) as messenger of Allah then he is not Muslim at all not a bit and all of his good deeds will be nullified and believe me you dont want to lecture me on this one, you may have read the Quran but you know nothing about Islam.
I am familiar with the Ahmadiyya religion and its founders.
I said the Ahmadiyya are technically Muslims by definition in the Quran.
It is only the Sunnis [who are they to judge for Allah] who rejected the Ahmadiyya are not Muslims.



Quote:
If ISIS or anyone is committing Such acts then they will be punished by Allah accordingly because in the Quran it is clearly mentioned that killing of innocent person is Biggest sin. I think you should remove Afghan Talibans from that list because they never committed such acts and also US is engaging them through dialogues and searching for a escape or Face saving and if you think they are terrorists then protest against US because they are having dialog for political solution with terrorists. They are Freedom fighters and defending their country against foreign invasion.
WHO ARE YOU [or any one else] to judge the acts of the Muslims of ISIS.
The Quran never mentioned the killing of innocent is the Biggest sin [reserved for assigning partners to Allah] if Muslims kill infidels [condemned as sh:t] in the way and for the cause of Allah.



Quote:
I hope you understand English so I want you to have a look once more:

“The promise of casting awe and fear into the hearts of the disbelievers in this verse was made in the background of the battle of Uhud when the disbelievers of Arabia marched back to Makkah without any obvious reason and inspite of defeat overtaking Muslim (Baydawi). However, after having covered a certain distance on their way to Makkah, they awoke to their folly. When they thought of marching back to Madinah, Allah Almighty filled their hearts with such awe and fear that they could not muster the courage to do so. The most they could do was to hire a Madinah-bound villager to go there and tell Muslims that theu were coming back. But, this whole deal came into the knowledge of the Holy Prophet (p) in Madinah through revelation. He marched to Hamra al-Asad to apprehend them but they had already run away from there. This was the background in which the present verse was revealed.”

They marched back to Makkah to attack so Allah cast terror in their heart. Terror was not cast by killing innocent people, Allah cast terror in their heart to prevent them from Killing Muslims.
I know the story.
What I had insisted the story represent the generic principles that are supposed to be followed by Muslims when they are in a similar situation of the story.

Quote:
People in Switzerland are not yet being exposed to a situation where they get murder and bombed over a false allegation of WMDs and after the whole country is destroyed by the evils and they laugh and say well actually there was no WMDs and after killing millions of innocent men, women and children they say we made a mistake. There was no ISIS before US invasion of Iraq and when there is chaos, there is always chance of exploitation to mislead anyone whose whole family got killed.
As usual, you missed my point on this;
My point was there will always a percentile of humans who are evil.
Therefore in any large group of people [e.g. even in Switzerland, a low crime country] there naturally be evil people. If there are Swiss who commit crimes it has nothing to do with their Constitution.
Therefore there will be Buddhists who are evil but if these naturally evil people commit evil it has nothing to do with Buddhism as the religion has not evil elements that motivate Buddhists to kill non-believers.
With Islam, it is the religion with its evil elements in the Quran that inspire evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.

Quote:
If 9/11 has nothing to do with Osama then its clearly something to do with US Govt. + Mossad why not accept the truth that your own govt. did it. As an Atheist you people believe in science but when it comes to 9/11 you even defy the laws of physics and why you people always turn your face away from these facts. I want you to deny these facts about 9/11.
BTW he is not Muslim

[youtube].....[youtube]
What kind of logic is that by accusing US Govt and Mossad, based merely on blind conspiracy theories.
Why not blame Russia and China who are also basically anti-US and the West.
In terms of possibility, we can assess them as 1%.


However it is very clear it has something to do with Islam, its evil and violent elements, US being the Great Satan and the celebrations by so many Muslims around the world when the twin towers felled.
I would assess the possibility of Islam [in part] as the ultimate cause at 99%.


Quote:
First of all, Muslims do not get afraid of death because we know this life is a test and its temporary, it is you who afraid of dying who think they will became insect after dying.
It is very natural for any human to fear death but there are inhibitors to suppress it.
Muslims may be able deflect the fear of death slightly because the Quran bullsh:t them they will get eternal life in paradise with superlative sensual delights if they believe in Allah with his terms conditions.
However the problem with Islam [in part] is it inspired SOME [not all] Muslims to kill non-Muslims if their religion [i.e. the Muslims' false security] is threatened.



Quote:
as I Said I dont take your words which means nothing and has no credibility, provide a verse of the Quran which says killing of innocent people is OK, if you really want to prove a point then provide evidence instead of your philosophies and imaginations.
The Quran do not specify a Muslim must kill innocent people.
The whole context of the Quran is directed negatively at the kuffar as a threat to Islam.
The Quran specify the kuffar are to be killed if they are a threat to Islam.
The kuffar are killed and oppressed with a range of evils by SOME Muslims because they are a threat to Islam, e.g. drawings of cartoons, promotion of education and anything the Muslims terms as haram.


The term 'innocent' is used by humane non-Muslims and not by Muslims or the Quran.
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Old 12-24-2015, 09:23 AM
 
88 posts, read 34,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note, at one time millions and almost all humans in the know believe the Earth was flat because the evidence then was so obvious. It was the same with the Sun moving over or around the Earth. So your 'thousands of people' justification is invalid.
What you are comparing it with flat earth theory ? Quran contains words just like, you are reading my post right now and I also speak these word so you can match it word by word. Where is the flat earth theory comes in between ? you always accuse others for insulting their intelligence but I must say you are really insulting your intelligence on this one, you can ask someone, if he is next to you

Quote:
I am familiar with the Ahmadiyya religion and its founders.
I said the Ahmadiyya are technically Muslims by definition in the Quran.
It is only the Sunnis [who are they to judge for Allah] who rejected the Ahmadiyya are not Muslims.
Either you believe that prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is last and final messenger or you dont, There is not in between. Allah says in the Quran that Muhammad(PBUH) is the seal of all Prophets and their will be no prophet after him. If anyone go for guidance to any other man who claimed prophet-hood and believed he is prophet is Non-Muslim.

We can Judge him by his actions in the light of Quran, just like we can judge the Christians are non-Muslims.

Quote:
WHO ARE YOU [or any one else] to judge the acts of the Muslims of ISIS.
The Quran never mentioned the killing of innocent is the Biggest sin [reserved for assigning partners to Allah] if Muslims kill infidels [condemned as sh:t] in the way and for the cause of Allah.
If they killed innocent people in Paris and other parts of the world, we can judge them in the light of Quran.
There are Qabira Gunah and Sagheera Gunah (Big sins and minor sins respectively) killing innocent people is one of the Qabira Gunah as mentioned in the Quran if someone killed one innocent human being it is as he killed the whole mankind. Do you think it is a minor sin as it is equal to killing a whole mankind ?
Obviously Shirk is also biggest sin I did not mentioned it because you read the Quran and you know already so I did not considered it as necessary.

Quote:
I know the story.
What I had insisted the story represent the generic principles that are supposed to be followed by Muslims when they are in a similar situation of the story.
I agree with you when the situation similar like battle of Uhud arises and infidels would come to kill the Muslims and Allah cast terror in their heart then whats wrong with that its absolutely right.

Quote:
As usual, you missed my point on this;
My point was there will always a percentile of humans who are evil.
Therefore in any large group of people [e.g. even in Switzerland, a low crime country] there naturally be evil people. If there are Swiss who commit crimes it has nothing to do with their Constitution.
Therefore there will be Buddhists who are evil but if these naturally evil people commit evil it has nothing to do with Buddhism as the religion has not evil elements that motivate Buddhists to kill non-believers.
With Islam, it is the religion with its evil elements in the Quran that inspire evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
Yeah thats what I thought, When it comes to Muslim then all fault is in Islam, if Buddhists do that then nay its not Buddhism, if Christian kill someone Nay its not Christianity, If Hindu kill thousands of Muslim in India then Nay its not Hinduism, (BTW hindus are killing Muslims for just eating non veg) (double standards)

Quote:
What kind of logic is that by accusing US Govt and Mossad, based merely on blind conspiracy theories.
Why not blame Russia and China who are also basically anti-US and the West.
In terms of possibility, we can assess them as 1%.

However it is very clear it has something to do with Islam, its evil and violent elements, US being the Great Satan and the celebrations by so many Muslims around the world when the twin towers felled.
I would assess the possibility of Islam [in part] as the ultimate cause at 99%.
If US Govt. did it, how can Islam to be blamed ? in fact its a conspiracy against Islam.

Its not Logic, Its undeniable and scientific evidence as you believe in Science religiously, how can you defy Science and the laws of physics in particular, How can you as an Atheist ? I would be surprise if you deny these evidence. These people are not Muslims and also No ordinary people these are Engineers and experts in their fields. I can understand, Truth is always hard to swallow but Truth is always be truth


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYUYya6bPGw


Quote:
It is very natural for any human to fear death but there are inhibitors to suppress it.
Muslims may be able deflect the fear of death slightly because the Quran bullsh:t them they will get eternal life in paradise with superlative sensual delights if they believe in Allah with his terms conditions.
However the problem with Islam [in part] is it inspired SOME [not all] Muslims to kill non-Muslims if their religion [i.e. the Muslims' false security] is threatened.
There is nothing wrong to believe in eternal life and about Quran inspiring killing of Muslim, Again my argument is same as earlier, provide evidence not philosophies provide a verse which allows killing of innocent humans otherwise there is no credibility of your words. Quran do not allow such acts.

Quote:
The Quran do not specify a Muslim must kill innocent people.
The whole context of the Quran is directed negatively at the kuffar as a threat to Islam.
The Quran specify the kuffar are to be killed if they are a threat to Islam.
The kuffar are killed and oppressed with a range of evils by SOME Muslims because they are a threat to Islam, e.g. drawings of cartoons, promotion of education and anything the Muslims terms as haram.

The term 'innocent' is used by humane non-Muslims and not by Muslims or the Quran.
I already mentioned it before, Kuffar are threat to Islam only if they attack Muslims and occupy their land and forbid them from practicing their religion even then the people who are doing it like Govt. are responsible not their citizen who are not doing it by their hands and such situation is not arise yet where they forbid Muslim to practice their religion.

Last edited by int007; 12-24-2015 at 10:39 AM..
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Old 12-24-2015, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
What you are comparing it with flat earth theory ? Quran contains words just like, you are reading my post right now and I also speak these word so you can match it word by word. Where is the flat earth theory comes in between ? you always accuse others for insulting their intelligence but I must say you are really insulting your intelligence on this one, you can ask someone, if he is next to you
I don't think you understood my point.
I said, at one time long ago[not now] all [if not almost all] would have believed the Earth was flat instead of being a round sphere.
My point is the truth is not necessary based on majority consensus without the relevant justifications.


Quote:
Either you believe that prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is last and final messenger or you dont, There is not in between. Allah says in the Quran that Muhammad(PBUH) is the seal of all Prophets and their will be no prophet after him. If anyone go for guidance to any other man who claimed prophet-hood and believed he is prophet is Non-Muslim.

We can Judge him by his actions in the light of Quran, just like we can judge the Christians are non-Muslims.
You can judge all you want. The Quran also acknowledge humans can be judge within their own confine laws, customs, rules, etc. However such judgment do not have any divine authority.


Now, the question of 'who is a Muslim' on the matter of going to heaven or hell is not for you [or any other human] to judge.
The statement re 'seal of all prophets' is controversial and there is not certainty on this point. There again the Quran is not precise.
Allah should simply say, 'Muhammad is the last and final prophet,' then emphasize 'there will be no more prophets after him.' This do not take a lot of space and it clear and precise.


Quote:
If they killed innocent people in Paris and other parts of the world, we can judge them in the light of Quran.
There are Qabira Gunah and Sagheera Gunah (Big sins and minor sins respectively) killing innocent people is one of the Qabira Gunah as mentioned in the Quran if someone killed one innocent human being it is as he killed the whole mankind. Do you think it is a minor sin as it is equal to killing a whole mankind ?
Obviously Shirk is also biggest sin I did not mentioned it because you read the Quran and you know already so I did not considered it as necessary.
You can judge all you want and it will not change any thing.
SOME evil prone Muslims will continue to interpret the Quran as long as it is there from their very sincere views to serve and please Allah in accordance to his words.
The only way for humanity and other is to capture and put them into prison. Do we have prison space for 300 millions evil prone Muslims.
The other alternative is to deal with the evil ideology which is a part [not whole] of Islam.


Quote:
I agree with you when the situation similar like battle of Uhud arises and infidels would come to kill the Muslims and Allah cast terror in their heart then whats wrong with that its absolutely right.
First, war itself and casting of terror are basically immoral. War is the last resort for humans but such war elements which are immoral should never be included in any religious texts or a way of life.
The problem with Islam as a religion and way of life is the war elements [immoral elements] are included in the Quran which is immutable and thus applicable eternally.


Second, the verses regarding the condoning of war [should not be in the Quran in the first place] are very vague and ambiguous.
Because the 20% of evil prone Muslims are so sensitive, every damn thing they don't feel comfortable with is deemed a threat and thus warrant war and terror.
E.g. The drawing of cartoons caused riots and murder all over the world. The acts of the US in foreign Muslims majority countries are perceived as threat, thus labeled as the Great Satan.


A religion of a way-of-life should be promoted on the basis of solely it good element in its contribution to the individual's psychological comfort and self-development.


Quote:
Yeah thats what I thought, When it comes to Muslim then all fault is in Islam, if Buddhists do that then nay its not Buddhism, if Christian kill someone Nay its not Christianity, If Hindu kill thousands of Muslim in India then Nay its not Hinduism, (BTW hindus are killing Muslims for just eating non veg) (double standards)
It is very unfortunate I have to explain this so many time because your mind is locked and blind to this. This is denial and self-deception to a refusal to understand the point.


I told you many times, any one and the worst evil person can be a Buddhist if s/he is born into a Buddhist family or declare oneself to be a Buddhist by taking the necessary oath.
If such a Buddhist went on to kill many people because some verses in the Buddhist scriptures say so in a direct or vague manner, then we can blame Buddhism per se.
But the reality there are no leading and inspiring verses in the Buddhist scriptures that any Buddhist can rely upon to justify their evil acts?
In this case we cannot blame Buddhism per se.
That Buddhist kill because of his own evil nature and not because he was inspired by Buddhism.


On the other hand, Islam with the Quran as it core scriptures has tons of evil laden elements in the Quran which inspire SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil and violence.
Therefore the faulty lies with the religion itself which inspire SOME Muslims to kill.

Quote:
If US Govt. did it, how can Islam to be blamed ? in fact its a conspiracy against Islam.

Its not Logic, Its undeniable and scientific evidence as you believe in Science religiously, how can you defy Science and the laws of physics in particular, How can you as an Atheist ? I would be surprise if you deny these evidence. These people are not Muslims and also No ordinary people these are Engineers and experts in their fields. I can understand, Truth is always hard to swallow but Truth is always be truth

[youtube].....[youtube] re 911
IF the US Government did it and it is proven solid then the US Govt. should blamed and punished for that crime.
However there are no solid proof that can justify the US Government or Mossad did it.
Since Islam is getting bad name for 911, and IF there are real solid evidence the Muslims community [OIC] should come together to bring the US to a World Arbitration Court to decide.


There are many conspiracy theories out there, e.g. no holocaust, US did not reach the Moon, etc.
There are also many pseudo science claims that are very convincing to many, e.g. aliens has visited Earth, UFO exists, monster exists, ghosts exist, astrology is true, etc.
There are many millions of people believing in the above but no one has been able to provide solid proofs to justify their claims.
You are insulting your intelligence if you buy into these claims, e.g. 911 committed by US government. This is one of the most silly claim I come across based on the given circumstances of reality.


Quote:
There is nothing wrong to believe in eternal life and about Quran inspiring killing of Muslim, Again my argument is same as earlier, provide evidence not philosophies provide a verse which allows killing of innocent humans otherwise there is no credibility of your words. Quran do not allow such acts.
I have given you the supporting basis.
It is not a verse that allow the killing of innocent.
It is set of a thousand of evil laden verses that is directed against the kuffar [not innocent] that inspire SOME evil prone to go on an evil and violent rampage like those of ISIS and the likes, plus all sort of evils that some Muslims commit on the kuffar merely because they disbelieve Islam.

Quote:
I already mentioned it before, Kuffar are threat to Islam only if they attack Muslims and occupy their land and forbid them from practicing their religion even then the people who are doing it like Govt. are responsible not their citizen who are not doing it by their hands and such situation is not arise yet where they forbid Muslim to practice their religion.
Again WHO ARE YOU to judge on behalf of Allah.
It is good of you that you do not attack the Kuffar.


However you cannot insist and exert actual control over the 20% of evil prone Muslims [a pool of 300 millions] who will commit terrible evils and violence on the kuffar to serve and please Allah in accordance to his commands. This is the fact every humanity should be of concern. Your noise has no effect on the 20% of evil prone at all.
Why don't you try to go the Syria and wherever the jihadists are and argue your point to win them over to your point? Fact is, it won't work. As long as Islam and the natural 20% of evil prone exist, there will be terrible evils and violence.
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Old 12-25-2015, 08:02 AM
 
88 posts, read 34,969 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't think you understood my point.
I said, at one time long ago[not now] all [if not almost all] would have believed the Earth was flat instead of being a round sphere.
My point is the truth is not necessary based on majority consensus without the relevant justifications.
.
Still this example is not relevant to this topic from the logical point of view, You are comparing theory with physical evidence i.e Now we can see with our own eyes through satellite that earth is round or spherical shape, This evidence is undeniable same as the people who memorized Quran and also wrote it down and matched it word by word is physical evidence. At that time flat earth theory had no physical evidence it, you should have known that.

I agree with your point that its not necessary that majority is criteria to judge right or wrong but when it comes to 9/11 you people say that they are minority and majority to not believe in it even they are arguing with physical and scientific evidence and they are rejected based on Numbers.

Quote:
You can judge all you want. The Quran also acknowledge humans can be judge within their own confine laws, customs, rules, etc. However such judgment do not have any divine authority.

Now, the question of 'who is a Muslim' on the matter of going to heaven or hell is not for you [or any other human] to judge.
The statement re 'seal of all prophets' is controversial and there is not certainty on this point. There again the Quran is not precise.
Allah should simply say, 'Muhammad is the last and final prophet,' then emphasize 'there will be no more prophets after him.' This do not take a lot of space and it clear and precise.
This shows your ignorance about Islam, Islam has its own social, economic and Justice System. It is a complete way of life. We judge criminals same as western societies who has their own lawfor criminals and if someone killed a innocent person their is punishment for him and also he committed a Big Sin. Punishment for these crimes are mentioned in the Quran and if you have 2% of common sense then you will know that why Punishment is mentioned for them simply because its a crime and they committed Sin in the eyes of Allah (swt).

Debating with you on Last and Final Messenger and Ahmadiya is a waste of my and your time because this is a matter of Fiqah and you know nothing about it, Admadiya were declared as nonMuslims by a Fatwa which was a collective decision of All scholars and believe me this was the only matter where they unanimously gave Fatwa against any matter because it was very simple and a average Muslim with limited knowledge can understand.

Quote:
You can judge all you want and it will not change any thing.
SOME evil prone Muslims will continue to interpret the Quran as long as it is there from their very sincere views to serve and please Allah in accordance to his words.
The only way for humanity and other is to capture and put them into prison. (Answered in my above reply)
Do we have prison space for 300 millions evil prone Muslims.
The other alternative is to deal with the evil ideology which is a part [not whole] of Islam.
Islam has all answers to your questions. Yes we do not have prisons for for those people (if the exist in such huge numbers) In Islam punishment for killing innocent people is Death so if anyone who will kill innocent people, they will be taken care of. In Pakistan, punishment for killing innocents which is death is being carried out which was banned but now they are hanging terrorists and there is Military operation is launched against them and terrorists attacks rapidly reduced and almost going towards their end. Thats how we dealt with those terrorist who were taking innocent lives.

Quote:
First, war itself and casting of terror are basically immoral. War is the last resort for humans but such war elements which are immoral should never be included in any religious texts or a way of life.
The problem with Islam as a religion and way of life is the war elements [immoral elements] are included in the Quran which is immutable and thus applicable eternally.

Second, the verses regarding the condoning of war [should not be in the Quran in the first place] are very vague and ambiguous.
Because the 20% of evil prone Muslims are so sensitive, every damn thing they don't feel comfortable with is deemed a threat and thus warrant war and terror.
E.g. The drawing of cartoons caused riots and murder all over the world. The acts of the US in foreign Muslims majority countries are perceived as threat, thus labeled as the Great Satan.


A religion of a way-of-life should be promoted on the basis of solely it good element in its contribution to the individual's psychological comfort and self-development.
Since Islam is the complete way of life and gives solution to every problem the human being have if the Creator do not provide the solution to the problems then who would believe in him. Islam gives the solution to the Muslim that if someone attacks you and wage war against you then how you should deal with them, You are talking in a sense that every war which is fought in past is started due to Islam, Is Islam responsible for WW-I and WW-II ? Islam allowed fight just like any other liberal constitution in world allows. Why targeting Islam for self defense.

Quote:
It is very unfortunate I have to explain this so many time because your mind is locked and blind to this. This is denial and self-deception to a refusal to understand the point.

I told you many times, any one and the worst evil person can be a Buddhist if s/he is born into a Buddhist family or declare oneself to be a Buddhist by taking the necessary oath.
If such a Buddhist went on to kill many people because some verses in the Buddhist scriptures say so in a direct or vague manner, then we can blame Buddhism per se.
But the reality there are no leading and inspiring verses in the Buddhist scriptures that any Buddhist can rely upon to justify their evil acts?
In this case we cannot blame Buddhism per se.
That Buddhist kill because of his own evil nature and not because he was inspired by Buddhism.

On the other hand, Islam with the Quran as it core scriptures has tons of evil laden elements in the Quran which inspire SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil and violence.
Therefore the faulty lies with the religion itself which inspire SOME Muslims to kill.
I never said Buddhism is to be blamed, you failed to understand my point which is, if a evil person justify something which is based on false interpretations then how can you blame Religion, for example Crusaders justified their actions from bible and you will not find people and Muslims who said Christianity is evil because we know they were evil and deceiving people. If I take this verse out of context then Christianity is Most Evil religion.

However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Deuteronomy 20:16

Quote:
IF the US Government did it and it is proven solid then the US Govt. should blamed and punished for that crime.
However there are no solid proof that can justify the US Government or Mossad did it.
Since Islam is getting bad name for 911, and IF there are real solid evidence the Muslims community [OIC] should come together to bring the US to a World Arbitration Court to decide.

There are many conspiracy theories out there, e.g. no holocaust, US did not reach the Moon, etc.
There are also many pseudo science claims that are very convincing to many, e.g. aliens has visited Earth, UFO exists, monster exists, ghosts exist, astrology is true, etc.
There are many millions of people believing in the above but no one has been able to provide solid proofs to justify their claims.
You are insulting your intelligence if you buy into these claims, e.g. 911 committed by US government. This is one of the most silly claim I come across based on the given circumstances of reality.
Have you ever heard The Might is Right, Who would dare to oppose America with all his Military and Nuclear Power certainly not the corrupt leaders of current time? however, this is the responsibility of its citizens for the sake of the future of their children and Truth and according to a surveys 26% people believe their Govt done it and this opinion is growing you never know what is going to happen in the future.

the video i have posted here has solid Scientific + physical evidence + circumstantial evidences that those were controlled demolitions. people reject these Evidence due to their state of denial or they cannot even think that their own Govt. has done something like this to their own people to achieve their hidden agenda. How can you deny these Scientific evidence as an Atheist. Now who is Psychologically weak and emotions stopping him from accepting the truth. when you will know the truth about 9/11, everything will begin to unfold in front of your eyes.

Quote:
I have given you the supporting basis.
It is not a verse that allow the killing of innocent.
Finally you understand. If there is no verse that allowed killing of innocent person then Islam is not to be blamed if someone deliberately / purposely misinterpreting certain verses out of context then its his fault. People who know Islam and know the context will never blame Islam unless they do it out of ignorance or purposely out of hatred.

Quote:
ISIS and the likes, plus all sort of evils that some Muslims commit on the kuffar merely because they disbelieve Islam.
If that was the case then why their are millions of Coptic Christians in Arab Lands living for more then thousand of years. ISIS is created to demonize Islam and they are playing their part as puppets. I dont know why you failed to understand a simple point.

Quote:
Again WHO ARE YOU to judge on behalf of Allah.
It is good of you that you do not attack the Kuffar.

However you cannot insist and exert actual control over the 20% of evil prone Muslims [a pool of 300 millions] who will commit terrible evils and violence on the kuffar to serve and please Allah in accordance to his commands. This is the fact every humanity should be of concern. Your noise has no effect on the 20% of evil prone at all.
Why don't you try to go the Syria and wherever the jihadists are and argue your point to win them over to your point? Fact is, it won't work. As long as Islam and the natural 20% of evil prone exist, there will be terrible evils and violence.
I can Judge because Allah provided the rules and Laws that how to judge someone if he committed a crime against fellow human being. Who said Muslims are convincing them or insisting, when someone already commited a crime there is no convincing and arguing there is punishment which is death, its very simple if someone killed innocent human they will be killed against this crime just like they are getting punished for their crimes and getting eliminated in Pakistan by Pak Army.
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Old 12-25-2015, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
Still this example is not relevant to this topic from the logical point of view, You are comparing theory with physical evidence i.e Now we can see with our own eyes through satellite that earth is round or spherical shape, This evidence is undeniable same as the people who memorized Quran and also wrote it down and matched it word by word is physical evidence. At that time flat earth theory had no physical evidence it, you should have known that.

I agree with your point that its not necessary that majority is criteria to judge right or wrong but when it comes to 9/11 you people say that they are minority and majority to not believe in it even they are arguing with physical and scientific evidence and they are rejected based on Numbers.
Note the concept that the Earth is spherical was raised in the 6th century BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth
Then there was no satellite in the 6th century BC but they [humans not God] knew the Earth is spherical.
Note the Quran was supposed to be written by an all knowing Allah who should know his own creation of Earth was round. So it is ridiculous that Allah did not insist the Earth is spherical then.
The messed up is due to the Quran was written by a person or group of person who were ignorant of that fact then in Arabia.


If you say
"the people who memorized Quran and also wrote it down and matched it word by word is physical evidence."
that contradict the claim the Quran was a conveyed verbatim [word for word] from Allah via Gabriel to Muhammad without any changes.


Re the 911 conspiracy, the check and control point is as I say, if the evidences are so convincing the US did it, then the Muslim community [who had been blamed and shamed] should have raised and counter it in the UN or a World Arbitration Court.
The fact that the majority of Islamic Nations, Government and groups did not do it, it is highly possible the conspiracy theory 911 was committed by US or Mossad is not plausible.


Quote:
This shows your ignorance about Islam, Islam has its own social, economic and Justice System. It is a complete way of life. We judge criminals same as western societies who has their own lawfor criminals and if someone killed a innocent person their is punishment for him and also he committed a Big Sin. Punishment for these crimes are mentioned in the Quran and if you have 2% of common sense then you will know that why Punishment is mentioned for them simply because its a crime and they committed Sin in the eyes of Allah (swt).
I am very well aware Islam claimed to be a way of life that is supposed to comprise all elements of life.
I belief such a claim is very inferior.
As human evolved you will note the default is specialization. Physics and other subjects were once part and parcel of Philosophy. However as Physics got more sophisticated along with human progress, it was separated from Philosophy. I am sure you can see specialization every where in contrast to the days of old where a person or subject cover the full range of skills or knowledge.


I am very verse with the Philosophy of religion. The main purpose of what is in the Quran and Islam is eschatology and soteriology, i.e. dealing with the anxieties and angst of what will happen after physical death [research and check out his terms, it is very important].
The social, economics, judiciary, politics, ethics and other non-soteriological matters are very secondary to the Quran.
According to my analysis, social, economics, judiciary, ethics and other non-soteriological matters are confined to 300++ verses out of the 6,236 verses in the Quran. In addition there are 300++ verses relating to fighting, war and killing of the kuffar.


That Islam SHOULD and MUST be a way-of-life as carved in stone tablet is a VERY inefficient management tool of life.
Reality and life is so complex, chaotic, random and extensive that to force life into a rigid way-of-life box of Islam is an inferior approach.
Why you insist to follow such a rigid and inferior way of life [despite the criticism and truth] is because you insist the Quran is perfect so as to ensure your salvation to paradise. SOME evil prone Muslims will kill those who challenge such inferior views.


Change is the only constant. Thus we must have a philosophy of life that is dynamic to adapt to whatever the inevitable changes of life and thus to ensure optimal progress. Note the dynamism in the higher teachings of the Eastern religions.
The precept in the Quran that all must be modest, especially women must covered up regardless of the location, weather and other conditions is very stupid. Note the case where some girls in Saudi were forced inside a building during a fire because they were not properly dressed, and they all died.



Quote:
Debating with you on Last and Final Messenger and Ahmadiya is a waste of my and your time because this is a matter of Fiqah and you know nothing about it, Admadiya were declared as nonMuslims by a Fatwa which was a collective decision of All scholars and believe me this was the only matter where they unanimously gave Fatwa against any matter because it was very simple and a average Muslim with limited knowledge can understand.
Whose Fatwa other than the self proclaimed sect of the Sunni. The Sunni is not Allah.
Note the Quran condemned the divisions of Muslims as expected after the death of Muhammad.
Technically in accordance to the Quran, the Ahamadiyyas are Muslims.


Quote:
Islam has all answers to your questions. Yes we do not have prisons for for those people (if the exist in such huge numbers) In Islam punishment for killing innocent people is Death so if anyone who will kill innocent people, they will be taken care of. In Pakistan, punishment for killing innocents which is death is being carried out which was banned but now they are hanging terrorists and there is Military operation is launched against them and terrorists attacks rapidly reduced and almost going towards their end. Thats how we dealt with those terrorist who were taking innocent lives.
I keep mentioning the term 'kuffar' [as per the Quran] and you insist on 'innocent' [the non-Muslim term.
What is done by the Government of majority Muslims Nations has no direct relevance on Judgment Day with Allah.
What matter is whether each individual Muslims comply with the terms and conditions in the Quran in relation to the covenant made with Allah.


Quote:
Since Islam is the complete way of life and gives solution to every problem the human being have if the Creator do not provide the solution to the problems then who would believe in him. Islam gives the solution to the Muslim that if someone attacks you and wage war against you then how you should deal with them, You are talking in a sense that every war which is fought in past is started due to Islam, Is Islam responsible for WW-I and WW-II ? Islam allowed fight just like any other liberal constitution in world allows. Why targeting Islam for self defense.
Note my argument above why a rigid and immutable way-of-life against a reality that is constantly changing is stupidity.
When did I ever state EVERY WAR of the past were committed by Muslims? That is insulting my intelligence!
The Quran did make provisions for self-defense if there is a threat against Muslims and Islam. Note this verse [mine]
22:39. Sanction [permission authorised] is given unto those [Muslims] who fight because they [Muslims] have been wronged [by infidels and hypocrites]; and Allah is indeed Able to give them [Muslims] victory;
In the above Muslims are given permission to fight [thus kill wherever you find them] because Muslims are wronged.
However, the term 'wronged' is not explained in detail. As I had mentioned 'wronged' is synonymous with mischiefs and corruption.
The point here is anything a Muslim do not feel comfortable with is deemed 'wronged' therefore they are permitted to fight [thus kill wherever they find them] the kuffar.
This is why the drawings of cartoon is justified for Muslims [especially the evil prone] to kill the kuffar.The promotion of secular education is 'wronged' on the Muslims, therefore Taliban [re Malala], Boko Haram can kill the kuffar as permitted by Allah. There are many other acts of the kuffar that are deemed as wronged, corruption, mischiefs which the Muslims are justified to kill the kuffar [infidels, kafir, kafara].

Quote:
I never said Buddhism is to be blamed, you failed to understand my point which is, if a evil person justify something which is based on false interpretations then how can you blame Religion, for example Crusaders justified their actions from bible and you will not find people and Muslims who said Christianity is evil because we know they were evil and deceiving people. If I take this verse out of context then Christianity is Most Evil religion.

However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Deuteronomy 20:16
There is no basis to blame a religion if it has no leading evil laden verses [Buddhism, Jainism] or has an overriding pacifist maxim [Christianity].
You may take a verse out of context from the Bible or Buddhist sutra but those religions are not to be blame because they are fundamentally pacifist religions.


Islam as a religion has evil laden verses [>55% of various degrees] in the Quran that directly and indirectly inspire SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
The fact is SOME Muslims have acted upon those verses to commit terrible evils and violence [fact] and there is nothing moderate Muslims can do about it [WHO ARE THEY to judge for Allah] and there is no central authority within the Islamic community to restraint minimally [even if there is, they cannot judge for Allah].
Some Muslims may misinterpret certain verses for various reasons but that does not absolve the Quran from containing real evil laden elements as a fact.



Have you ever heard The Might is Right, Who would dare to oppose America with all his Military and Nuclear Power certainly not the corrupt leaders of current time? however, this is the responsibility of its citizens for the sake of the future of their children and Truth and according to a surveys 26% people believe their Govt done it and this opinion is growing you never know what is going to happen in the future.

the video i have posted here has solid Scientific + physical evidence + circumstantial evidences that those were controlled demolitions. people reject these Evidence due to their state of denial or they cannot even think that their own Govt. has done something like this to their own people to achieve their hidden agenda. How can you deny these Scientific evidence as an Atheist. Now who is Psychologically weak and emotions stopping him from accepting the truth. when you will know the truth about 9/11, everything will begin to unfold in front of your eyes.



Finally you understand. If there is no verse that allowed killing of innocent person then Islam is not to be blamed if someone deliberately / purposely misinterpreting certain verses out of context then its his fault. People who know Islam and know the context will never blame Islam unless they do it out of ignorance or purposely out of hatred.



If that was the case then why their are millions of Coptic Christians in Arab Lands living for more then thousand of years. ISIS is created to demonize Islam and they are playing their part as puppets. I dont know why you failed to understand a simple point.



I can Judge because Allah provided the rules and Laws that how to judge someone if he committed a crime against fellow human being. Who said Muslims are convincing them or insisting, when someone already commited a crime there is no convincing and arguing there is punishment which is death, its very simple if someone killed innocent human they will be killed against this crime just like they are getting punished for their crimes and getting eliminated in Pakistan by Pak Army.[/quote]

Last edited by Continuum; 12-25-2015 at 10:04 PM..
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Old 12-26-2015, 02:49 PM
 
88 posts, read 34,969 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the concept that the Earth is spherical was raised in the 6th century BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth
Then there was no satellite in the 6th century BC but they [humans not God] knew the Earth is spherical.
Note the Quran was supposed to be written by an all knowing Allah who should know his own creation of Earth was round. So it is ridiculous that Allah did not insist the Earth is spherical then.
The messed up is due to the Quran was written by a person or group of person who were ignorant of that fact then in Arabia.


If you say
"the people who memorized Quran and also wrote it down and matched it word by word is physical evidence."
that contradict the claim the Quran was a conveyed verbatim [word for word] from Allah via Gabriel to Muhammad without any changes.

Re the 911 conspiracy, the check and control point is as I say, if the evidences are so convincing the US did it, then the Muslim community [who had been blamed and shamed] should have raised and counter it in the UN or a World Arbitration Court.
The fact that the majority of Islamic Nations, Government and groups did not do it, it is highly possible the conspiracy theory 911 was committed by US or Mossad is not plausible.
You will be surprised to know that Allah(swt) did mentioned in the Quran that earth is round.

“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” [Al-Qur’aan 79:30]

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat.


“Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day And He merges Day into Night?” [Al-Qur’aan 31:29]
Merging here means that the night slowly and gradually changes to day and vice versa. This phenomenon can only take place if the earth is spherical. If the earth was flat, there would have been a sudden change from night to day and from day to night.

The following verse also alludes to the spherical shape of the earth: “He created the heavens And the earth In true (proportions): He makes the Night Overlap the Day, and the Day Overlap the Night.” [Al-Qur’aan 39:5]
The Arabic word used here is Kawwara meaning ‘to overlap’ or ‘to coil’– the way a turban is wound around the head. The overlapping or coiling of the day and night can only take place if the earth is spherical.


Muhammad(PBUH) use to dictate the verses to the companions and they memorized it and also wrote is down. Note: Quran was not reveal at once it was revealed in 23 years. when Muhammad(PBUH) dictated the verses he also asked companions to speak those verses to attest it to ensure there is no error. The person in the Saudi Arabia or anywhere in the world has the same Quran, during the 5 time a day Salah the Imam recite the Quran and if he makes mistake even a single word then people behind him would correct him on the spot. You are just disagreeing with everything and cannot even think that Quran is not changed because you dont even want to give it 1% of credit out of hatred.

In the light of Scientific facts and evidences, its proved that 9/11 is inside job. Now why people are not opposing US Govt. is understandable even by a child but you cannot neglect the truth just because leaders of Muslim world are not doing anything, I must say that the American people in significant numbers are playing their part in this regard and I respect them for it but people like you who are neglecting the evidence and not accepting the truth, may be one day they might come out of Disney land.

Quote:
I am very well aware Islam claimed to be a way of life that is supposed to comprise all elements of life.
I belief such a claim is very inferior.
As human evolved you will note the default is specialization. Physics and other subjects were once part and parcel of Philosophy. However as Physics got more sophisticated along with human progress, it was separated from Philosophy. I am sure you can see specialization every where in contrast to the days of old where a person or subject cover the full range of skills or knowledge.

I am very verse with the Philosophy of religion. The main purpose of what is in the Quran and Islam is eschatology and soteriology, i.e. dealing with the anxieties and angst of what will happen after physical death [research and check out his terms, it is very important].
The social, economics, judiciary, politics, ethics and other non-soteriological matters are very secondary to the Quran.
According to my analysis, social, economics, judiciary, ethics and other non-soteriological matters are confined to 300++ verses out of the 6,236 verses in the Quran. In addition there are 300++ verses relating to fighting, war and killing of the kuffar.
you have only read the Quran and not hadith if you read it then you will know that how Islam gave the complete way of life. I agree that their are less verses which are dealing social and economics system because mainly Quran is about Guidance and Toheed (one God and worship him alone) because Hadiths and Sunnah of the Muhammad(PBUH) deals in detail about social, economics and justice system which is complete way of life .

Quote:
That Islam SHOULD and MUST be a way-of-life as carved in stone tablet is a VERY inefficient management tool of life.
Reality and life is so complex, chaotic, random and extensive that to force life into a rigid way-of-life box of Islam is an inferior approach.
Why you insist to follow such a rigid and inferior way of life [despite the criticism and truth] is because you insist the Quran is perfect so as to ensure your salvation to paradise. SOME evil prone Muslims will kill those who challenge such inferior views.

Change is the only constant. Thus we must have a philosophy of life that is dynamic to adapt to whatever the inevitable changes of life and thus to ensure optimal progress. Note the dynamism in the higher teachings of the Eastern religions.
The precept in the Quran that all must be modest, especially women must covered up regardless of the location, weather and other conditions is very stupid. Note the case where some girls in Saudi were forced inside a building during a fire because they were not properly dressed, and they all died.
First of all Islam gives the solution to every problem. All the Islamic laws provide the permanent solution to the problems. The incident you reported has nothing to do with Islam and if they forced girls into the building during fire for just not wearing the hijab is unIslamic because Islam do not say that you cannot temporarily break the law to save your life for example Islam allows limited amount of alcohol if its help to treat a disease. as far as Hijab is concern, if you take the west as example there are huge numbers of rape cases compare to Saudi Arabia where Women wearing Hijab and punishment for the rapist is death. every Islamic law which is in practice will show result and crime rate immediately will decrease.

Quote:
Whose Fatwa other than the self proclaimed sect of the Sunni. The Sunni is not Allah.
Note the Quran condemned the divisions of Muslims as expected after the death of Muhammad.
Technically in accordance to the Quran, the Ahamadiyyas are Muslims.
First Sunni is not a sect, and The Fatwa was not only given by the Sunnis only, in fact all the Scholars of Shia also given the Fatwa as well. Its not us who judged them it was given in the light of Quran and Hadiths and there is no dispute over it because a person with the slightest knowledge of Islam would know ahmadiya are not Muslims.

Quote:
I keep mentioning the term 'kuffar' [as per the Quran] and you insist on 'innocent' [the non-Muslim term.
What is done by the Government of majority Muslims Nations has no direct relevance on Judgment Day with Allah.
What matter is whether each individual Muslims comply with the terms and conditions in the Quran in relation to the covenant made with Allah.
I used the term innocent which includes both Muslims and NonMuslims.

We can Judge because Allah commanded us.
Verily, Allah orders justice and good conduct and giving to relatives and He forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression. He admonishes you that perhaps you will be reminded. Surat An-Nahl 16:90

Verily, Allah commands you to render trusts to whom they are due and when you judge between people to judge with justice. Excellent is that which Allah instructs you. Verily, Allah is ever hearing and seeing.
Surat An-Nisa 4:58


If anyone who murdered a human being then Quran5:32 will be invoked. I hope you will not argue about judging them after these verses.

Quote:
Note my argument above why a rigid and immutable way-of-life against a reality that is constantly changing is stupidity.
When did I ever state EVERY WAR of the past were committed by Muslims? That is insulting my intelligence!
The Quran did make provisions for self-defense if there is a threat against Muslims and Islam. Note this verse [mine]
22:39. Sanction [permission authorised] is given unto those [Muslims] who fight because they [Muslims] have been wronged [by infidels and hypocrites]; and Allah is indeed Able to give them [Muslims] victory;
In the above Muslims are given permission to fight [thus kill wherever you find them] because Muslims are wronged.
However, the term 'wronged' is not explained in detail. As I had mentioned 'wronged' is synonymous with mischiefs and corruption.
The point here is anything a Muslim do not feel comfortable with is deemed 'wronged' therefore they are permitted to fight [thus kill wherever they find them] the kuffar.
This is why the drawings of cartoon is justified for Muslims [especially the evil prone] to kill the kuffar.The promotion of secular education is 'wronged' on the Muslims, therefore Taliban [re Malala], Boko Haram can kill the kuffar as permitted by Allah. There are many other acts of the kuffar that are deemed as wronged, corruption, mischiefs which the Muslims are justified to kill the kuffar [infidels, kafir, kafara].
Will you elaborate in which sense you mentioned its changing ?

I must say that you are working very hard to link killing of innocent people with Islam but it is not happening. In the context of this verse there is no way that anyone could justify they evil act from the word "wronged".

This verse was revealed when Muslim were expelled from their homes, captured, enchained, killed and thrown in to the dungeons, this is how they were wronged by Kuffar of Makkah.

Quote:
There is no basis to blame a religion if it has no leading evil laden verses [Buddhism, Jainism] or has an overriding pacifist maxim [Christianity].
You may take a verse out of context from the Bible or Buddhist sutra but those religions are not to be blame because they are fundamentally pacifist religions.

Islam as a religion has evil laden verses [>55% of various degrees] in the Quran that directly and indirectly inspire SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
The fact is SOME Muslims have acted upon those verses to commit terrible evils and violence [fact] and there is nothing moderate Muslims can do about it [WHO ARE THEY to judge for Allah] and there is no central authority within the Islamic community to restraint minimally [even if there is, they cannot judge for Allah].
Some Muslims may misinterpret certain verses for various reasons but that does not absolve the Quran from containing real evil laden elements as a fact.
lol if someone took verses out of context then Islam is to be blamed but if someone takes verses of Christianity, Buddism etc.out of context then they are not to be blamed (double standards)

You think that there are evil verses in the Quran because you are quoting verses out of context purposely or foolishly. every single verse of the Quran with context is Chrystal clear and a child can understand.
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