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Old 12-06-2015, 12:02 PM
 
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Islam is often called the "religion of peace". But I wanna examine this, because at this time the US is in very real danger of getting into a war with Islam. A long and bloody war that I don't want. A war that nobody I know wants. A war that will likely be fought anyway, because American wars are not voted on by the American people, they are done by military employees.

Let's start with what peace is actually supposed to be. We have two models actually, both which technically work:
  1. Peace will happen when people stop fighting, realize we have differences, and love each other anyway.
  2. Peace will happen when nobody who disagrees with me is left alive.
There are no people who actually say "I'm #1 or #2" of these options. But it's a subconscious mentality. It is one thing to debate and call someone else's belief sets wrong. When you start attacking people for their views, you've crossed a line (for example, this attack on abortion workers, I do not like abortion but I do not think sane people should attack such places; neither do I like Muslims, sorry, but if they ever make trouble the solution is not to put them to death but to send them home, since the point of being in a country is to follow its laws).

In Islam, the word peace (سلام) means literally "secured, pacified, submitted" the idea being that you have disabled any threat against you. But this doesn't really solve anything. Let me explain something. Suppose you did this everywhere. Every single country that isn't a Muslim country, you have decided is disagreeing with you, therefore they are a threat to you. Pitcairn? They are trying to be on their little remote island, but they're a threat. Switzerland? With enemies you know where they stand but with neutrals, who knows? Sure whatever. The whole world is conquered. Every country is Muslim. Is the world at peace? No, not yet. The Sun'nis hate the Shi'ites, and both hate the Sufi, the Sikh, and the Farsi. Okay, so they fight among themselves, what now?

I will not stop you if want to keep fighting all your enemies. But you should deserve to know the future of this path to peace.

The Sun'ni, Shi'ite, and Sufi (and the rest) have fought it out, and all other religions have submitted. Is there peace? Yes, everyone is dead.

This is your Ghost of Christmas Future moment. If you keep fighting for this idea of peace, you will kill everyone else who does not submit. And then you will kill yourselves.

But peace means something different to Christians. And to Buddhists, because peace is something different.

Peace to the Buddhist is the same as the other meaning of Jihad. Winning the struggle against yourself and coming to agreement. To stop fighting the outside world what is in your heart.

This is the identical feeling that Malcolm X discussed after visiting Mecca. He saw Muslims of all color, some darker than him, worshipping together. And he came to mellow out. Before people assassinated him, but that's a different story.

Peace to the Christians

looks like this. Shaking hands, sometimes hugging each other. Peace is closely tied with love. But also, there is a song about God's peace.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fxe6iT4SfnQ

In this life, we have to struggle against hardship, against oppression, and against injustice. We have to ask others for help. Because they will not help us, if our first responses are to scare them to death. If there are Muslims in their home countries with ****ty treatment the solution is not to emigrate to countries that don't want them, take those over, and have equally ****ty treatment. That's stupid. It's to unseat the thugs that keep oppressing the Muslim citizens, and learn how to make your countries run better. The US and other European countries can help. They can't if we are enemies.

I do not like Muslims. I will probably never trust them. But I am not in support of my country declaring war on them, I only want Muslims to live in countries where they are welcome without perscution. There are plenty of states where Muslims live (much of northern Africa and the Middle East), and can learn to live in peace. Real peace.

I want one thing for Christmas. Not presents, or anything like that. For Muslims (as much as I dislike them) and Christians and Buddhists and Jews and so on, to have peace with each other, and work together to build a better world. That's it.

Can we make this happen?

On a side note: the title. Besides being sort of a shocking "wakeup call" title, there is a specific reason I chose this title. The Peace Sign that you see hippies wave around. Well um, the symbol has a common link with two symbols: the Tree of Life and Algiz, the rune of protection, growth, and life. So, yes "peace" as it is represented, is really a symbol of death, because it is an inversion of these symbols. Its founder, Gerard Holtom designed it as an abbreviation for Nuclear Disarmament (it has to do with flag waving, which is rather arcane), but later saw it as a symbol of despair and wanted it more to look like a hands raised formation.
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Old 12-06-2015, 01:45 PM
 
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Don't believe all the "sunnis vs shias" thing.

This is something used by the politicians and other people to let us fight against each others for their own interests.
It's just about control in the muslim world : Iran vs Saudis
Iran support Hezbollah who fighted in the side of Bashar because against the sunnis, and KSA who support other extremist groups killing the shias like Al Quaida/Daesh.

And this is why we have those problems in the Middle-east.
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Old 12-06-2015, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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How can the US or anyone else get into a war with Islam? Who and where would be the enemies to target? I can see the possibility of war with specific people and from or in a specific region. Such as the members of ISIS in the Mideast mostly in Iraq and Syria, Or Maby members of Bobko Haram in Nigeria and surrounding nations. But outside of that there are Muslim practicing Islam in every Nation with the possible exception of Vatican City, but even there we have no way to know if any person in Vatican is or is not a Muslim, except by their own statement they are not.
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Old 12-06-2015, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Islam is often called the "religion of peace".


In Islam, the word peace (سلام) means literally "secured, pacified, submitted" the idea being that you have disabled any threat against you.
The general meaning of peace are as in the link below;
Peace | Define Peace at Dictionary.com


From what I have read of the Quran, its meanings of peace are as follow;


1. Peace of mind of the individual - various conditions
2. Total domination of the non-Muslims, i.e. no threats as you have mentioned
3. Assurance of a place in paradise with eternal peace filled with sensual delights.


In terms of criticalness, 3 is given a 90% weighting while 1 & 2 represent only 10%. This is mentioned in many verses in the Quran. Here is one amongst the many, [mine]
3:185. Every soul will taste of death. And ye [mankind] will be paid on the Day of Resurrection only that which ye have fairly earned. Whoso [Muslims] is removed from the Fire and is made to enter Paradise, he [as Muslim] indeed is triumphant. The life of this world is but comfort of illusion.
Since the Quran asserted this world is but an illusion, it give most Muslims less concern for the well being of humanity. Even if the human species is extinct they would not be bothered because they are saved in paradise with eternal life and eternal peace.


So your OP is correct, in accordance to the Quran, the critical peace is upon physical death where upon the Muslims can look forward to eternal peace [which is a falsehood].
Based on this falsehood and guided by the doctrines of the Quran [from Muhammad, not from any God] SOME Muslims are inspired by the evil laden verses in the Quran to commit terrible evils and violence onto non-Muslims to gain greater assurance to eternal peace regardless of whatever happen to life on Earth.


The war that humanity has to face with Islam is to bring to the awareness of Muslims collectively that there is no such eternal heaven with eternal peace. That is a falsehood that should be corrected and thence there will be less evils and violence from SOME evil prone Muslims.
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Old 12-07-2015, 07:50 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The general meaning of peace are as in the link below;
Peace | Define Peace at Dictionary.com


From what I have read of the Quran, its meanings of peace are as follow;


1. Peace of mind of the individual - various conditions
2. Total domination of the non-Muslims, i.e. no threats as you have mentioned
3. Assurance of a place in paradise with eternal peace filled with sensual delights.


In terms of criticalness, 3 is given a 90% weighting while 1 & 2 represent only 10%. This is mentioned in many verses in the Quran. Here is one amongst the many, [mine]
3:185. Every soul will taste of death. And ye [mankind] will be paid on the Day of Resurrection only that which ye have fairly earned. Whoso [Muslims] is removed from the Fire and is made to enter Paradise, he [as Muslim] indeed is triumphant. The life of this world is but comfort of illusion.
Since the Quran asserted this world is but an illusion, it give most Muslims less concern for the well being of humanity. Even if the human species is extinct they would not be bothered because they are saved in paradise with eternal life and eternal peace.


So your OP is correct, in accordance to the Quran, the critical peace is upon physical death where upon the Muslims can look forward to eternal peace [which is a falsehood].
Based on this falsehood and guided by the doctrines of the Quran [from Muhammad, not from any God] SOME Muslims are inspired by the evil laden verses in the Quran to commit terrible evils and violence onto non-Muslims to gain greater assurance to eternal peace regardless of whatever happen to life on Earth.


The war that humanity has to face with Islam is to bring to the awareness of Muslims collectively that there is no such eternal heaven with eternal peace. That is a falsehood that should be corrected and thence there will be less evils and violence from SOME evil prone Muslims.
While Islam and Salaam come from the same word and the root word means submission. We believe the submission is to Allaah(swt) alone and not to any organization, theology, group or religion. Full peace will only come when all people submit to Allaah(swt), which will not happen until after the Mehdi and Jesus(a.s.) defeat the anti-Christ and his followers and lead all others to the performance of Islam.
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While Islam and Salaam come from the same word and the root word means submission. We believe the submission is to Allaah(swt) alone and not to any organization, theology, group or religion. Full peace will only come when all people submit to Allaah(swt), which will not happen until after the Mehdi and Jesus(a.s.) defeat the anti-Christ and his followers and lead all others to the performance of Islam.
Which other belief systems demand submission by all?

Communism and Naziism are two off the top of my head. Of course this destroys the idea of individual rights and freedom and fosters hate and war and pitting neighbor against neighbor. Non-submitters are subject to all kinds of initiation of force. Totalitarianism, mass slaughter, poverty, propaganda....it's pretty ugly when a group wants the submission of everyone else to what that group believes. Mao and Hitler and Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin and Muhammed were soul brothers.
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Old 12-07-2015, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While Islam and Salaam come from the same word and the root word means submission. We believe the submission is to Allaah(swt) alone and not to any organization, theology, group or religion. Full peace will only come when all people submit to Allaah(swt), which will not happen until after the Mehdi and Jesus(a.s.) defeat the anti-Christ and his followers and lead all others to the performance of Islam.
Btw, this OP is not about 'submission' but about 'peace'.
The point is a Muslim get 'peace' via submission.


Psychologically it is only those humans who has low self-esteem, submissive, masochistic, and other related psychological needs [weakness] will achieve a sense of 'peace' when they submit and surrender and be subservient to a some thing higher up. This is because the person is so bothered by so much mental disturbances such that to give up and be subservient is the only way to achieve a sense of ease, calm and peace.


There are many reasons why people are inclined to be submissive. However the main reason for a sense of peace in religion [Islam in this case] is due to eschatological and soteriological reasons to ease the mother of all sufferings and pains, i.e. the subliminal existential crisis within. This is a common reason for ALL religions per se.


The very serious problem with Islam is the religion is conditioned to a 'way of life' and guided by its immutable holy texts, the Quran, which contains tons of evil laden elements [ambiguously worded]. Such evil laden elements catalyzed and inspired SOME evil prone Muslims [a pool of 300 million] to commit terrible evils and violence upon non-Muslims [even Muslims] to ensure/reinforce their own personal salvation.
The focus on the Quran is peace for Muslims in paradise [very less of Earth] and thus SOME Muslims as guided by the evil laden the in the Quran will go all out to do whatever it takes to attain peace in paradise [filled with sensual delights] which include to the extreme the killing of non-Muslims.


Eternal life and peace on paradise is bullsh:t but I acknowledge this falsehood do help in generate pseudo-peace for many believers. Humanity must strive for genuine peace not pseudo-peace.


It is a fantasy to wait for a Mehdi. Btw this is a bidah and haram since such a prophesy was never mentioned by Allah in the Quran.


The ONLY reality of human life is one should seek inner peace and equanimity during one's life time and contribute in whatever way possible to sustain perpetual peace within humanity. To do so, one must tune one's own physical and mental machinery to attain inner peace and equanimity. The religions that are capable of doing this are the mainstream Eastern religions subject to a bit of tweaking.


Islam on the other hand is a double-edged-blade that has inherent good and evil within the religion. The evil within Islam catalyze the natural ["unavoidable"] and inherent 20% of evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
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Old 12-08-2015, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Btw, this OP is not about 'submission' but about 'peace'.
The point is a Muslim get 'peace' via submission.


Psychologically it is only those humans who has low self-esteem, submissive, masochistic, and other related psychological needs [weakness] will achieve a sense of 'peace' when they submit and surrender and be subservient to a some thing higher up. This is because the person is so bothered by so much mental disturbances such that to give up and be subservient is the only way to achieve a sense of ease, calm and peace.


There are many reasons why people are inclined to be submissive. However the main reason for a sense of peace in religion [Islam in this case] is due to eschatological and soteriological reasons to ease the mother of all sufferings and pains, i.e. the subliminal existential crisis within. This is a common reason for ALL religions per se.


The very serious problem with Islam is the religion is conditioned to a 'way of life' and guided by its immutable holy texts, the Quran, which contains tons of evil laden elements [ambiguously worded]. Such evil laden elements catalyzed and inspired SOME evil prone Muslims [a pool of 300 million] to commit terrible evils and violence upon non-Muslims [even Muslims] to ensure/reinforce their own personal salvation.
The focus on the Quran is peace for Muslims in paradise [very less of Earth] and thus SOME Muslims as guided by the evil laden the in the Quran will go all out to do whatever it takes to attain peace in paradise [filled with sensual delights] which include to the extreme the killing of non-Muslims.


Eternal life and peace on paradise is bullsh:t but I acknowledge this falsehood do help in generate pseudo-peace for many believers. Humanity must strive for genuine peace not pseudo-peace.


It is a fantasy to wait for a Mehdi. Btw this is a bidah and haram since such a prophesy was never mentioned by Allah in the Quran.


The ONLY reality of human life is one should seek inner peace and equanimity during one's life time and contribute in whatever way possible to sustain perpetual peace within humanity. To do so, one must tune one's own physical and mental machinery to attain inner peace and equanimity. The religions that are capable of doing this are the mainstream Eastern religions subject to a bit of tweaking.


Islam on the other hand is a double-edged-blade that has inherent good and evil within the religion. The evil within Islam catalyze the natural ["unavoidable"] and inherent 20% of evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
While I will accept that 20% of Mulims like all people are inherently evil, What percentage actually commits any evil deeds?

While the amount of damage done by those that do act, is quite stagering. It no longer takes a large number to commit an atrocity.

But, the Question still begs what percent of Muslims actually does such and how does it compare with the percentage committed by non-Muslims.

Using your favorite sticker



How many Muslims were involved in each one? 1, 100, 1,000 More?

It does seem for most terrorist attacks a very small number of people actually took part. That is also over a 14 year period of time. I think it is safe to assume that less than is 1% of the world's 1.7 billion Muslims were involved. There are more individual acts of violence by Non-Muslims in the USA alone each year; than the number of world wide Muslim Terrorist attacks over a 14 year period.

Is that on par with the percentage of acts of violence among non-Muslims who have no influence from the Qur'an?

It seems that people with no influence from the Qur'an are more likely to commit an act of violence.
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Old 12-08-2015, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While I will accept that 20% of Mulims like all people are inherently evil, What percentage actually commits any evil deeds?

While the amount of damage done by those that do act, is quite stagering. It no longer takes a large number to commit an atrocity.

But, the Question still begs what percent of Muslims actually does such and how does it compare with the percentage committed by non-Muslims.

Using your favorite sticker

How many Muslims were involved in each one? 1, 100, 1,000 More?

It does seem for most terrorist attacks a very small number of people actually took part. That is also over a 14 year period of time. I think it is safe to assume that less than is 1% of the world's 1.7 billion Muslims were involved. There are more individual acts of violence by Non-Muslims in the USA alone each year; than the number of world wide Muslim Terrorist attacks over a 14 year period.

Is that on par with the percentage of acts of violence among non-Muslims who have no influence from the Qur'an?

It seems that people with no influence from the Qur'an are more likely to commit an act of violence.
You don't get the critical point and in addition is conflating the critical issue on topic with others.


The individual acts of non-Muslims in the USA and elsewhere is off topic. We must address such evils and resolve them but the difference is they are not driven and inspired by a religious ideology [related to this forum]. If some one got murder in New York or there is a mass murder in Oklahoma, these incidents do not reverberate and inspire other around the world to do commit evil for the same reason.


However note the drawings of cartoons in Denmark motivated evil prone Muslims around the world to commit terrible evils all over the world. There are so many evil prone Muslims [at least 20%] who support and pledge allegiance to ISIS.
The danger and serious of religion-inspired violence is the wildfire effect and this is on topic.
The individual or gang violence do not have a wildfire effect which need to be addressed by their respective governments but that is off topic.


Re 20%:
It is not a question of the % from the 20% who actually committed evils and violence.
The 20% i.e. 300 million potentially evil prone Muslims itself is a serious and frightening figure.
Just imagine if I say there are 300 million potential murderers around the world. This is serious because any of the 300 million can be a murderer.
So it is not a question of how many had committed murder, it is the 20% potential that we need to take into account as the critical variable.

Note my thesis:
1. DNA wise ALL humans are potential beasts.
2. 20% are more likely to express that potential [in degrees] due to lack of impulse control.
3. Thus 20% of Muslims are evil prone, i.e. a pool of 300 million.
4. More than 55% of the 6,236 verses in the Quran contain evil laden elements [of various degrees].
5. The combination of Point 2 and 3 manifest terrible evil and violence by evil prone Muslims.


There are 1.5 billion Muslims around the world and 20% i.e. 300 million are evil prone.
This potential itself is highly serious and dangerous.
This mean any of the 300 million can turn to evil and violent easily and any time.


Re my statistics of 27,401.
Note this number refers to fatal incidents why there are death of the victims and not other non-deadly incidents of terrible evils and violence by evil prone Muslims. For example the serious attack on Malala for promoting education is not included in this statistics because she was not killed.


As for numbers re this 27,401 incidents, if the average number of people involved is say 10, then that would be 270,401. This is rough because the some of the incidents could be committed by the same people however this is compensated by the low average I used. In reality the armies of the Taliban, ISIS, Boko Haram are definitely more than 10, say 20,000 up to 50,000.
You also have to take into account the evil prone and even some moderates who support such evils against non-Muslims and even Muslims. Note the PEW's polls where the number of people supporting ISIS and other terror groups are way above 20%.


Besides the number of fatal incidents involving deaths, there are loads of evils and violence committed by Muslims which do not involve deaths. Note the evils of oppression of minorities, women, less serious violence, restriction of freedom, injustices, etc. which are inspired by the Quran but not fatal. This will be committed by millions from the pool of the 20% [300 million].


Even if I agree with you 1% of 1.7 billion, note that is 17 million and you should note 17 million is a very significant quantum because it took only 18++ to do a 911.
The 17 million is significant but what is most critical is the consequences, i.e. the actual total of atrocities committed by evil prone Muslims.
For example it may only take 50 evil prone Muslims to exterminate the human species when they get access to WMDs. If ISIS get their way to establish an Islam State, they could end up like North Korea [perhaps partnering them for their nuclear capabilities] and build that Armargeddon bomb or other WMDs. The Muslims of ISIS are so geared towards martyrdom and paradise, so exterminate the human species is to them a win-win situation.


Even in Hitler's case, it is not a question whether there is a large number of evil prone Nazis. What is needed is for a small group of top echelon of evil prone to drive the system based on the ideology to influence the vulnerable majority.


Islam is a religion of peace for Muslims ONLY and the critical 'peace' is in paradise with eternal life as promised in the covenant made [explicitly or implicitly] with Allah. Here is one verse [mine]
{note there are many such verses};
15:45. Lo! Those [Muslims] who ward off (evil) are among gardens and water springs.
15:46. (And it is said unto them [Muslims]): Enter them in peace, secure.
Islam is not a religion of 'peace' for the whole of mankind and humanity. Non-Muslims are to be condemned, humiliated and dominated on Earth and tortured in the most evil manner in the Islamic Hell.
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Old 12-09-2015, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Long Island, N.Y.
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Why should a "religion" founded by bloodshed be respected?

The Example of Mohammed is disturbing, to say the least, as is the Qur'an.

You guys need an Enlightenment, but the contradictions will be hard to overcome.
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