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No its not, there is no consistency. I don't think posters are saying people don't have the right to wear what they want. Posters have said its probably not a good idea given the current environment. I'm saying they have the right, I don't believe in censorship BUT I have no sympathy when they are ridiculed or targeted. And when they go on social media saying woe is me I think ****, in light of the RECENT murders and terrorism that actually happened your displaying a symbol of terrorist, someone said something negative to you and your going to cry about it, probably try to sue.
People did state the confederate flag and anything bearing its symbol should be censored. People meaning there is a whole lot of them outside of this forum. Im not talking about what people posted on the confederate flag threads Im talking about what really happened in, you know, the real world.
What that I don't sympathize with them for the public doing the same thing they did over the symbol of the confederate flag?
There were plenty of people "in the real world" who were against censorship of the Confederate flag. And I don't have a problem with them making this incident viral, so it doesn't set a potentially dangerous precedent that this behavior towards fellow citizens will be swept under the rug and justified.
Why? Because for the 100th time, the anger and frustration that Americans have is being directed towards people who have not been proven to be affiliated with terrorists. That is the point of all of this. I cannot state that any simpler.
No, you said you don't sympathize with Muslims being verbally attacked because NON-Muslims did the same to pro-Confederate flag people. Does THAT make sense to you?
If you've been following this thread, then the answer is no.
If you haven't been following this thread, the answer should be painfully obvious. I think people like to play Devils Advocate no matter how unproductive it is.
Then we are in agreement, I don't care what religious practices one chooses provided it doesn't hurt others...unfortunately, Islam allows raping young infidel girls, so that's why it belongs in its own category and why that Muslim garb is offensive.
If you can't see who I am talking about when I talk about Conservative Christians changing the way this country is run, you have the issue, not me. I am CLEARLY not talking about middle of the road, sane Christians.
Then who ARE you talking about? Because I see very few Christians behaving in such vile ways as so many Muslims are doing. A few isolated cases of murdering abortionists is about as extreme as we get. (And no, I am NOT defending that; and neither is almost anyone else.) And yeah, there's the Westboro Baptist crowd -- who are as roundly condemned in Christian circles as anywhere else. So please tell me which Christian groups in America are behaving in any manner that is even remotely similar to that of all too many Muslims, because I'm not seeing it.
There were plenty of people "in the real world" who were against censorship of the Confederate flag. And I don't have a problem with them making this incident viral, so it doesn't set a potentially dangerous precedent that this behavior towards fellow citizens will be swept under the rug and justified.
Why? Because for the 100th time, the anger and frustration that Americans have is being directed towards people who have not been proven to be affiliated with terrorists. That is the point of all of this. I cannot state that any simpler.
And there are plenty of people in the real world who are against censorship of religious or cultural attire.
Even with the people against censorship of the Confederate flag, the confederate flag was still censored. Has the religious/cultural attire of Islam been censored?
Quote:
No, you said you don't sympathize with Muslims being verbally attacked because NON-Muslims did the same to pro-Confederate flag people. Does THAT make sense to you?
Actually I was quoting you and another poster using the terms muslim and non muslim. But yes it makes perfect sense to me not to sympathize with these women because someone said something negative to them about their headscarf when I watched actual censorship of the confederate flag symbol, not just some name calling.
I also had people on this forum call me a racist, a soulless backward, ignorant redreck and other terms of endearment because I upheld the right to display the confederate flag. And you want to poo poo me because I dont give two flips these women are getting the same treatment I and others got for exercising our freedom of expression. Really?
They can wear scarves and people can react to it. That happened.
I agree with scarves being provocative at this time, I think a lot of people who wear them know that too. The word I need to use is "alien", it doesn't fit into American cultural norms and when something outside the norm is in the spotlight for killing a bunch of people it's going to get a reaction.
Headscarves are not provocative. You are bigoted against Muslims.
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Originally Posted by modernist1
There's no obligation for them to wear headscarves - or hijabs - and they are of course free to do so. On the other hand - there is something a bit exclusivist or separatist about doing so. People will invariably politely ignore it - but in the present climate when demonstrative Islamic piety (as opposed to the older - in the West - cursory nod to secular Islam) is sometimes associated with a more fundamentalist interpretation of the religion, it's no great surprise that it might sometimes create tension. As a PR exercise - and again obviously it would be volitional - it might be cool to not wear religious garb - at least for a stretch - even though Muslim.
Is there something separatist about wearing a necklace with a cross? Or a yarmulke?
Your view--that the headscarf is "associated with a more fundamentalist interpretation of the religion"--is an act of projection. You simply have no idea what interpretation of Islam these young women support (other than that it probably includes the wearing of a headscarf). Islam, like protestant Christianity, is a decentralized religion. There are many lines of interpretation. Most of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims are ordinary, peaceful people trying to live well.
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Originally Posted by RotseCherut
I agree 100% Tall Traveler .. A lot of people who are so strong in defending the rights of Muslims have yet to travel to a Muslim country where they are a minority.
And, of course, nobody gives a crap about all the Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and other non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries around the globe who have been tortured, raped and murdered.
I have traveled in a Muslim country with my spouse. We are both non-religious. I have also traveled to a Muslim part of an otherwise western country. I never encountered any hostility or rudeness. In fact, both places were quite welcoming and enjoyable.
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Originally Posted by Tall Traveler
But the difference is that Islam promotes killing Infidels, raping girls, sex slaves, disrespecting everyone not of the religion, oppressing women, gays...and wearing Muslim garb (age) represents that oppression....do you support that oppression or denounce it (regardless of the location of your upbringing)?
There is an increasingly fascist subset of the US population, and you are a part of it.
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Originally Posted by ATG5
For the most part (I hesitate to say that), the roles are flipped. People who wanted Confederate flag censorship don't want Muslim attire censorship, and vice-versa. I made the observation that some of the same people that were against Confederate flag censorship would not support the right or prefer Muslims to not wear their attire in public.
The desire for consistency is not difficult to understand.
Does that make sense? That is some incredibly backwards thinking, and that is dangerous. Have you ever heard the saying, "two wrongs don't make a right"?? Neither situation is O.K.
My goodness.
If you can't see the difference between state houses flying the confederate flag and two young women wearing headscarves, then you need lessons in civics and religion.
The confederate flag is not associated with any religion. It is associated with a rebellion against the United States on the basis that the United States would not support continued expansion of slavery.
The headscarf is religious attire adopted by many Muslims.
Individuals are entitled to the free exercise of religion.
If the People do not want their government to fly a flag associated with slavery, then they have every right to petition for that.
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Originally Posted by bus man
The moral equivalency is strong in this one.
I'm a Christian, and you are absolutely right that I would love to see some changes in how this country is run. We try to effect such changes by doing things like voting our consciences, writing letters to our congressmen, signing petitions, trying to persuade people to our positions, and so on. We don't gun down random people while shouting "Praise Jesus!"
If you can't see the difference between how Christians try to effect change and how Muslims do it, I would suggest removing your head from the sand and taking a closer look.
I would suggest that you are trying to treat all Christians one way and all Muslims another way, as if none of the people within those two massive religions have any individual thought. That is bigotry.
Also, plenty of Christians do gun down random people in an effort to achieve political goals: abortion clinic bombers, the Dr. Tiller assassin, members of the Ku Klux Klan, Timothy McVeigh. There is a wide array of violent, right-wing hate groups in the US & Europe with either Christian identity or Christian members.
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Originally Posted by Nor Cal Wahine
No; I believe you misunderstood. These photos demonstrate a much more relaxed society of Muslim people in past times in Tehran, in which burkas and hijabs were worn far less frequently. Tehran was a more secular city back then. Muslim women had much more freedom just fifty years ago.
Now Google "Tehran today", and see for yourself the stark difference that radical Islam has brought to this once-beautiful city.
Iran is a large country with diverse religious attitudes among its populace. Take a look at "Everyday Iran" on Twitter or Instagram to get a sense of that. Or look at pictures of people in Istanbul, a predominately Muslim city of 14 million people, to get a sense of the diversity of dress and tolerance for that diversity.
Islam means submission I heard from my Muslims, that does not bode well for them in that case. Infidels and hating Westerners just because your religion tells you so is pretty lame.
Then we are in agreement, I don't care what religious practices one chooses provided it doesn't hurt others...unfortunately, Islam allows raping young infidel girls, so that's why it belongs in its own category and why that Muslim garb is offensive.
And there are plenty of people in the real world who are against censorship of religious or cultural attire.
Even with the people against censorship of the Confederate flag, the confederate flag was still censored. Has the religious/cultural attire of Islam been censored?
Actually I was quoting you and another poster using the terms muslim and non muslim. But yes it makes perfect sense to me not to sympathize with these women because someone said something negative to them about their headscarf when I watched actual censorship of the confederate flag symbol, not just some name calling.
I also had people on this forum call me a racist, a soulless backward, ignorant redreck and other terms of endearment because I upheld the right to display the confederate flag. And you want to poo poo me because I dont give two flips these women are getting the same treatment I and others got for exercising our freedom of expression. Really?
Yeah, see how far that attitude gets you. And see how productive that is to improving the well-being of this country.
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Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge
If you can't see the difference between state houses flying the confederate flag and two young women wearing headscarves, then you need lessons in civics and religion.
The confederate flag is not associated with any religion. It is associated with a rebellion against the United States on the basis that the United States would not support continued expansion of slavery.
The headscarf is religious attire adopted by many Muslims.
Individuals are entitled to the free exercise of religion.
If the People do not want their government to fly a flag associated with slavery, then they have every right to petition for that.
You are so off-based with this, it's not even funny. Maybe you should read every post of mine in this thread, because I am arguing for exactly what you think I'm arguing against.
Iran is a large country with diverse religious attitudes among its populace. Take a look at "Everyday Iran" on Twitter or Instagram to get a sense of that. Or look at pictures of people in Istanbul, a predominately Muslim city of 14 million people, to get a sense of the diversity of dress and tolerance for that diversity.
Istanbul is not in Iran, which was the specific focus of the post that you quoted. And while Turkey has historically been decidedly more Westernized in its secularism, that too is changing. Islamic conservatism has affected women in Turkey and even in Istanbul, particularly in the past five years. This alarms me. As a woman, I simply want to see Muslim women move forward, not backward.
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