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Old 12-10-2015, 07:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katygirl68 View Post
You're talking about a group that exists only in your head. What laws have conservatives passed that forces you to go to church, pray, or get fired or passed over for government contracts if you're not a Christian? Don't talk about pro-lifers because they're about preserving life and don't believe the arbitrary idea that life miraculously begins once the growing fetus leaves the womb. I'm not against abortion, but I can understand why people are. The stance on same-sex marriage was the only thing that came close to fighting against something based on purely religious reasons. Thankfully, that has been decided by the court so I think people will make little waves about it here and there, use it to win elections, but it will never be as big of a polarizing issue as abortion. Maybe someday they will realize it's not going to break the moral fabric of this country or destroy the institution of marriage.

To say Conservative Christians are just a "bit behind their ISIS brethren" is not only insulting, it is dangerously wrong. You can't fight an enemy by refusing to acknowledge what it is. ISIS beheads people, makes slaves of people, burns and buries people alive, including small children, and wants to conquer the world. Christians at worst want to tell others they shouldn't marry someone because their bible says it's a sin. At best, Christians raise money and feed the poor, go to other countries and work as missionaries. They're more service oriented than a lot of people.
We'll see.
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Old 12-11-2015, 12:35 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
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In the West - for Western Muslims - there really is no reason to wear a hijab. And, I think it does send the a message of divisiveness. I urge my fellow Westerners who wear them, to take them off.
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Old 12-11-2015, 01:27 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
In the West - for Western Muslims - there really is no reason to wear a hijab. And, I think it does send the a message of divisiveness. I urge my fellow Westerners who wear them, to take them off.
The only reason is due to psychological reason to compensate for low self esteem and security.


Such behaviors are typical of general psychological weakness, which is hero worship to feel secure. It is very common of idol-worshippers [e.g. celebrities, leaders] to imitate the idol's behaviors, everything they do, say and everything they wear.


In the case of the hijab, the Muslim women are idol-worshipping Muhammad [a serious sin] in whatever he said. They are worshipping what Muhammad was supposed to have said in the Hadiths.
But note the hijab is not even expected by Allah in the Quran. The Quran only recommended women to cover their cleavage.
This is actually going nature because the cleavage is supposed to be exposed for men to review [not stared lustfully btw].
Here is the psychological reason for the cleavage;
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...asts-mesmerize
The cleavage is there for the male to review before marriage not after marriage.


What is worse is the hijab is a symbol of hate and dehumanization towards the non-Muslims.
That is another irony when these women complained they were dehumanized when they are the ones who are dehumanizing themselves and others when the wear the hijab.
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Old 12-11-2015, 03:31 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
In the West - for Western Muslims - there really is no reason to wear a hijab. And, I think it does send the a message of divisiveness. I urge my fellow Westerners who wear them, to take them off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The only reason is due to psychological reason to compensate for low self esteem and security.


Such behaviors are typical of general psychological weakness, which is hero worship to feel secure. It is very common of idol-worshippers [e.g. celebrities, leaders] to imitate the idol's behaviors, everything they do, say and everything they wear.


In the case of the hijab, the Muslim women are idol-worshipping Muhammad [a serious sin] in whatever he said. They are worshipping what Muhammad was supposed to have said in the Hadiths.
But note the hijab is not even expected by Allah in the Quran. The Quran only recommended women to cover their cleavage.
This is actually going nature because the cleavage is supposed to be exposed for men to review [not stared lustfully btw].
Here is the psychological reason for the cleavage;
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...asts-mesmerize
The cleavage is there for the male to review before marriage not after marriage.


What is worse is the hijab is a symbol of hate and dehumanization towards the non-Muslims.
That is another irony when these women complained they were dehumanized when they are the ones who are dehumanizing themselves and others when the wear the hijab.
The Hijab,Head scarf in English is not just found among Muslim women it is also traditional among many Christians and Orthodox Jews. It is also a tradition

for many Spanish, Portuguese, Mexican, Lithuanian, Latvian, Scandnavian, nad Ukrainian women, among others.

The hijab is not the full body covering found among Arabs, it is simply the head scarf. If you say Muslim women can not wear a Head sarf will you say the same to all the others that wear head scarves?

Perhaps there is a confusion of definitions

Hiab: Head scarf
Niqaab: Face veil
Burka: Full body covering--Which is Traditional Arabic clothing and not necessarily Islamic. Nor is it Fiqh (obligatory) for Muslim Woman (except in some Arab Nations where it is mandatory for all women)
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 12-11-2015 at 03:39 AM..
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Old 12-11-2015, 03:47 AM
 
9,257 posts, read 10,913,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Hijab,Head scarf in English is not just found among Muslim women it is also traditional among many Christians and Orthodox Jews. It is also a tradition

for many Spanish, Portuguese, Mexican, Lithuanian, Latvian, Scandnavian, nad Ukrainian women, among others.

The hijab is not the full body covering found among Arabs, it is simply the head scarf. If you say Muslim women can not wear a Head sarf will you say the same to all the others that wear head scarves?

Perhaps there is a confusion of definitions

Hiab: Head scarf
Niqaab: Face veil
Burka: Full body covering--Which is Traditional Arabic clothing and not necessarily Islamic. Nor is it Fiqh (obligatory) for Muslim Woman (except in some Arab Nations where it is mandatory for all women)
Woodrow, That's what I was talking about in my post a few days ago (when this was in Current Events). There are all sorts of traditional religious garb, and wearing any of it does not have to mean someone is being confrontational.

Last edited by TXNGL; 12-11-2015 at 03:51 AM.. Reason: Horrific grammar
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Old 12-11-2015, 08:53 AM
 
2,826 posts, read 1,865,774 times
Reputation: 991
Unfortunately, it tends to end up that way. People wear crosses too. They manage to do so without being confrontational. On the other hand, a guy wearing a big cross and Christian tattoos all over his body is drawing attention.

There are several ways to cover the chest and thighs, such as a good maxi dress. Most of westerners don't wear low blouse. Modesty is fine. Head covering on the other hand is off limits for most banks because they cannot identify you.

The other thing here is that dehumanizing is a two way street. If alot of Muslims have written off American culture as corrupt and sinful, because they don't follow sharia law, you have dismissed them yourself. It should not come as a surprise that they seriously question your right to stay, when you cannot respect American values, laws, customs, and traditions.

Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 12-11-2015 at 09:04 AM..
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Old 12-11-2015, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Unfortunately, it tends to end up that way. People wear crosses too. They manage to do so without being confrontational. On the other hand, a guy wearing a big cross and Christian tattoos all over his body is drawing attention.

There are several ways to cover the chest and thighs, such as a good maxi dress. Most of westerners don't wear low blouse. Modesty is fine. Head covering on the other hand is off limits for most banks because they cannot identify you.

The other thing here is that dehumanizing is a two way street. If alot of Muslims have written off American culture as corrupt and sinful, because they don't follow sharia law, you have dismissed them yourself. It should not come as a surprise that they seriously question your right to stay, when you cannot respect American values, laws, customs, and traditions.
I was born and raised Christian. My Grand parents were from Lithuania and like many Russians, Lithuanians, Poles Latvians etc all the women in my family wear a Babushka which strongly resembles a Hijab. If you wear to ask my Sister, who is still Christian, to remove her babushka she would probably take it off and then beat you senseless with it.

After accepting Islam I see no different from Muslim women that wear a Hijab. My wife wears one and she would probably beat me with a broom if I tried to get her to go outside without wearing it.
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Old 12-11-2015, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Hijab,Head scarf in English is not just found among Muslim women it is also traditional among many Christians and Orthodox Jews. It is also a tradition

for many Spanish, Portuguese, Mexican, Lithuanian, Latvian, Scandnavian, nad Ukrainian women, among others.

The hijab is not the full body covering found among Arabs, it is simply the head scarf. If you say Muslim women can not wear a Head scarf will you say the same to all the others that wear head scarves?

Perhaps there is a confusion of definitions

Hijab: Head scarf
Niqaab: Face veil
Burka: Full body covering--Which is Traditional Arabic clothing and not necessarily Islamic. Nor is it Fiqh (obligatory) for Muslim Woman (except in some Arab Nations where it is mandatory for all women)
I know 'hijab' = head scarf.


I have no problem with people wearing uniforms as required by rules, e.g. scarf in this case as worn by nuns, and others.
I don't even have a problem if people want to go nude provided they do it privately at home or in nudist camps.


There is also no issue if people wear scarves or certain dressing if that has been gradually incorporated into a certain community or locations. Many women in colder temperate countries wore scarf as an alternative to men wearing hats to retain heat [much of which escape via the head] and over time it became a tradition and habituated [thus difficult to change].
These women did not wear the scarf out of modesty. Many youngsters and even adult use some kind of hood [partial] to cover their head in winter instead of a hat or other headgears.
The check is those people in the hotter equatorial regions do not wear a scarf except for protection for the sun while working or sand blowing in the desert.


However a hijab is a totally different issue in the present situation.
1. The hijab may have been used as a scarf for other purposes BUT NEVER for modesty in the first place and in the context of Allah's intention in the Quran. Many use two main and other verses from the Quran to support the wearing of the hijab but on closer scrutiny they don't pass the compliance test.


2. The imposition of the hijab on Muslim women was due to overzealous clergy who exaggerated in their exposition of the Quran's recommendation of dressing and modesty. I dare say the hijab rule and expectation is a bidah [innovation].


4. The issue with the hijab which is not in compliance with the Quran is at present adopted by many Islamic groups and Nations as a rule that all Muslim women must comply.
Where there is no imposed rule, there is peer pressures and a threat of going to hell.


5. In some countries and within certain group of Muslims there is mob ruling and those women who do not wear hijab are harassed or beaten.
Note this, 4 years old beaten [in UK] when her hijab slipped.
Islamic father is arrested for 'beating his four-year-old daughter to death' because she did not cover her head while she ate lunch | Daily Mail Online


6. The hijab is also a hate symbol and trigger the "us versus them" impulse especially when Muslims are the minority or where there are a larger minority of non-Muslims.


In general I have no issue with people wearing a scarf for various good reasons.
However, from the above negativities, one should NOT wear a scarf as a symbol to denote one is a Muslim since this is not even specified by Allah. I am very certain, the hijab will not score merit points when the woman faces Allah on Judgment Day.
(note when Muslim women wear a scarf in a hot humid sweaty equatorial locations, they sweat and smells, worst when they play sports or are physically active with it, ... promote fungal diseases, etc.).
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Old 12-11-2015, 09:00 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I know 'hijab' = head scarf.


I have no problem with people wearing uniforms as required by rules, e.g. scarf in this case as worn by nuns, and others.
I don't even have a problem if people want to go nude provided they do it privately at home or in nudist camps.


There is also no issue if people wear scarves or certain dressing if that has been gradually incorporated into a certain community or locations. Many women in colder temperate countries wore scarf as an alternative to men wearing hats to retain heat [much of which escape via the head] and over time it became a tradition and habituated [thus difficult to change].
These women did not wear the scarf out of modesty. Many youngsters and even adult use some kind of hood [partial] to cover their head in winter instead of a hat or other headgears.
The check is those people in the hotter equatorial regions do not wear a scarf except for protection for the sun while working or sand blowing in the desert.


However a hijab is a totally different issue in the present situation.
1. The hijab may have been used as a scarf for other purposes BUT NEVER for modesty in the first place and in the context of Allah's intention in the Quran. Many use two main and other verses from the Quran to support the wearing of the hijab but on closer scrutiny they don't pass the compliance test.


2. The imposition of the hijab on Muslim women was due to overzealous clergy who exaggerated in their exposition of the Quran's recommendation of dressing and modesty. I dare say the hijab rule and expectation is a bidah [innovation].


4. The issue with the hijab which is not in compliance with the Quran is at present adopted by many Islamic groups and Nations as a rule that all Muslim women must comply.
Where there is no imposed rule, there is peer pressures and a threat of going to hell.


5. In some countries and within certain group of Muslims there is mob ruling and those women who do not wear hijab are harassed or beaten.
Note this, 4 years old beaten [in UK] when her hijab slipped.
Islamic father is arrested for 'beating his four-year-old daughter to death' because she did not cover her head while she ate lunch | Daily Mail Online


6. The hijab is also a hate symbol and trigger the "us versus them" impulse especially when Muslims are the minority or where there are a larger minority of non-Muslims.


In general I have no issue with people wearing a scarf for various good reasons.
However, from the above negativities, one should NOT wear a scarf as a symbol to denote one is a Muslim since this is not even specified by Allah. I am very certain, the hijab will not score merit points when the woman faces Allah on Judgment Day.
(note when Muslim women wear a scarf in a hot humid sweaty equatorial locations, they sweat and smells, worst when they play sports or are physically active with it, ... promote fungal diseases, etc.).
When I was in the Sahara, I was a Christian, but after the first time I got caught in a sandstorm I began dressing as the Taureg men dress, I found it to be quite comfortable.

Typical Taureg man




It should also be noted that Saudi men also wear a head scarf that is very similar to a Hijab. One can not claim that the hijab on a woman is a sign of male dominence



While the Hijab is not mentioned in the Qur'an it is sunnah for women to wear it. However a woman should wear it for the proper purpose and not be forced to wear it. It has to be the woman's free will choice and for the reason of piety, not obedience to any living human or to impress anyone. The hijab styles do vary considerably by Nation and local Custom. It is also sunnah for a man to wear a head covering, I personalty wear a Moroccan style Tarboosh or a Pakistani Kufi most often a kufi

Like this one



I do not wear it to impress anyone as I seldom see any people. I wear it because it is Sunnah to cover my head (That is not me in the picture)

This is me back when I was an Imam

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Old 12-12-2015, 12:35 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,502,841 times
Reputation: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Hijab,Head scarf in English is not just found among Muslim women it is also traditional among many Christians and Orthodox Jews. It is also a tradition

for many Spanish, Portuguese, Mexican, Lithuanian, Latvian, Scandnavian, nad Ukrainian women, among others.

The hijab is not the full body covering found among Arabs, it is simply the head scarf. If you say Muslim women can not wear a Head sarf will you say the same to all the others that wear head scarves?

Perhaps there is a confusion of definitions

Hiab: Head scarf
Niqaab: Face veil
Burka: Full body covering--Which is Traditional Arabic clothing and not necessarily Islamic. Nor is it Fiqh (obligatory) for Muslim Woman (except in some Arab Nations where it is mandatory for all women)
When I was growing up in Britain in the 1960s and 70s, I don't remember a single British Muslim woman (as a kid I even went to an Eid dinner at the mosque with my Muslim neighbors) wearing religious garb as a matter of daily course. In the last 15 years it's become commonplace, and yes, it's divisive.
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