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Old 12-23-2015, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461

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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
Narrated / Authority Of: Abu Ghalib
that Abu Umamah said: “(The Khawarij) are the worst of the slain who are killed under heaven, and the best of the slain are those who were killed by them. Those (Khawarij) are the dogs of Hell. Those people were Muslims but they became disbelievers.” I said: “O Abu Umamah, is that your opinion?” He said: “Rather I heard it from the Messenger of Allah (saw).” (Hasan)

If ISIS is committing such acts they fall in to the category of (Khawarij) and Muhammad (PBUH) never used the word(Dogs of Hell) even for the unbelievers.
Regardless of the above, which is not in the Quran, the Muslims of ISIS will insist they have complied with the verses of the Quran and that would be acceptable by Allah on Judgment Day.


Quote:
you cannot make false imaginations to be truth and certainly cannot prove it from Quran. US never forbid Muslims to practice their religion even if they do in the future the people living in US are still innocent because there govt will do it not them, so People killed in 9/11 were innocent and no one can justify their killing from Quran unless someone Islamophobic like you want to believe by neglecting the facts.
I did not say US forbid Muslims to practice their religion.
The US is labeled the Great Satan for interfering in the affairs of Muslims in Muslim nations.
The presence of the US hinder the zealous Muslims in promoting the expansion and progress of Islam towards establishing a caliphate [Ummah] where Muslims can practice 100% Islam.
From this logic all the citizens [majority are kuffar & infidels] of the US who support and vote for that government are a threat to Islam.
If they are a threat to Islam then they [kuffar] can be killed by the sanction of Allah.
The Muslims of ISIS and other jihadists interpret in the same with France and the citizens of EU.
Now we understand it is the minority of Muslims who think this way and not the 80% of moderate Muslims who are reasonable good people.
But is critical is the minority of 20% or even 10% is represented by a pool of 300 million or 150 million evil prone Muslims around the world who are influenced by their religion to 'hate' with the most vilest 'hatred' against the kuffar.


Quote:
First of all always provide evidence from Quran to prove your point. Second I will not take only your words because you are not truthful and any sensible person will not take your words as truth without proof. they cannot use 5:33 to justify killing of innocent people so its clear on this one. Now which verses you are talking about? in fact there are none to be used for justification so do not shoot in air or provide the evidence.
It is not based on some evil and violent laden verses.
The basis SOME evil prone Muslims kill the kuffar and commit terrible evils is based on the from the context of the whole Quran and its ethos that is culminated by all the thousands of evil laden elements [of various degrees].
Here is the basis;
1. There are 3000+ verses of the 6,236 verses that identify the kuffar [infidels & non-Muslims] for condemnation in various degrees.
2. There are the evil and violent verses of war [300++] on the kuffar if the religion is threatened.
3. There are the verses that provide great incentives for Muslims to fight against the kuffar.
4. There are many verses that threaten Muslims if they do not comply with the dictates in the Quran.
5. Many of the verses are vague and ambiguous.
6. There is a natural 20% of evil prone Muslims, i.e. a pool of 300 millions.


It is the combinations of the above that set off and inspire the evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
The proof of the above theory is in the glaring evidences of evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims around the world. I don't expect you to ask me for proofs on this.


Quote:
well about your DNA bullsh:t, this is a racist comment and which is not surprising for me.
As I said earlier provide proof from Quran or otherwise be a man and accept your ignorance.
Again the above views are express from low intellectual competence.
Evil and violence resulting from DNA structures has nothing to do with racism per se.
The DNA structures that results in enabling evils and violence tendencies are generic that will lead the evil prone to commit any sort of evil and violence. It may be race related but it can be other crimes related to drugs, politics, greed, emotions, culture, religion, etc.
So who is the ignorant one.


As for proofs, I have listed the basis in 1-6 above.
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Old 12-24-2015, 05:52 AM
 
88 posts, read 34,981 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Continuum Wrote:
Regardless of the above, which is not in the Quran, the Muslims of ISIS will insist they have complied with the verses of the Quran and that would be acceptable by Allah on Judgment Day.
Insisting on something is not the criteria for truthfulness. If they are misinterpreting the verses of the Quran than there is no escape for them. Quran says that killing of innocent people is Haram so there is no justification for killing people in Paris or anywhere in the world if they did it.

Quote:
I did not say US forbid Muslims to practice their religion.
The US is labeled the Great Satan for interfering in the affairs of Muslims in Muslim nations.
The presence of the US hinder the zealous Muslims in promoting the expansion and progress of Islam towards establishing a caliphate [Ummah] where Muslims can practice 100% Islam.
From this logic all the citizens [majority are kuffar & infidels] of the US who support and vote for that government are a threat to Islam.
If they are a threat to Islam then they [kuffar] can be killed by the sanction of Allah.
The Muslims of ISIS and other jihadists interpret in the same with France and the citizens of EU.
Now we understand it is the minority of Muslims who think this way and not the 80% of moderate Muslims who are reasonable good people.
But is critical is the minority of 20% or even 10% is represented by a pool of 300 million or 150 million evil prone Muslims around the world who are influenced by their religion to 'hate' with the most vilest 'hatred' against the kuffar.
First I have to tell you that you always mention about 20% of muslims are evil which showed in survey who spoke in favor of ISIS, they did not mentioned what the context was in that survey where Christians and Buddhists also spoke in the favor of ISIS, so it doesn't mean that they are evil for sure. if for example someone ask me do you hate US Govt. for their policies in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, my answer will be yes but does it make me evil ? thousand of people in US who are against those policies and hate their Govt., are they all evil ? and from that survey you also have threat from your own 7% Christians and there are 6% Buddhists as well but still if US is labeled the Great Satan, it doesnt make all the citizen Satans its their Govt. When crusaders conquered Jerusalem they killed almost all Muslims and history says blood was pouring in the streets but when Slahudin (May Allah pleased with him) conquered Jerusalem, he did not killed a single unarmed Christian because Islam do not allow killing of innocent people and Salahudin was very religious man and never missed his Salah and he was also a scholar before joining Army. the logic you gave about all infidels are threat to Islam, if that was the case then there should be no Hindus left in the India because Muslim ruled it for 1000 years as well as Christians in Spain in fact when Christian conquered Spain they killed every single Muslim.

Quote:
It is not based on some evil and violent laden verses.
The basis SOME evil prone Muslims kill the kuffar and commit terrible evils is based on the from the context of the whole Quran and its ethos that is culminated by all the thousands of evil laden elements [of various degrees].
Here is the basis;
1. There are 3000+ verses of the 6,236 verses that identify the kuffar [infidels & non-Muslims] for condemnation in various degrees.
2. There are the evil and violent verses of war [300++] on the kuffar if the religion is threatened.
3. There are the verses that provide great incentives for Muslims to fight against the kuffar.
4. There are many verses that threaten Muslims if they do not comply with the dictates in the Quran.
5. Many of the verses are vague and ambiguous.
6. There is a natural 20% of evil prone Muslims, i.e. a pool of 300 millions.

It is the combinations of the above that set off and inspire the evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
The proof of the above theory is in the glaring evidences of evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims around the world. I don't expect you to ask me for proofs on this.
Its like someone is lying and said do not accuse me of lying, Funny If God forbid, I was a Non-Muslim and had no knowledge about Islam even than i would not believe you because you did not provide any verses which supports your point. My argument is the same like before, Where did Quran give permission to kill innocent people unless someone attacks and try to kill Muslim, Self defense is allowed in all liberal and secular societies and same in Islam if someone attacks you

Quote:
again the above views are express from low intellectual competence.
Evil and violence resulting from DNA structures has nothing to do with racism per se.
The DNA structures that results in enabling evils and violence tendencies are generic that will lead the evil prone to commit any sort of evil and violence. It may be race related but it can be other crimes related to drugs, politics, greed, emotions, culture, religion, etc.
So who is the ignorant one.

As for proofs, I have listed the basis in 1-6 above.
Is it a Scientific fact ? it means if someone commit a evil act then its not his fault because he has it in his DNA then why the punishment?, Just like if a abnormal or mentally unstable person commit a crime and you cannot punish him, What rubbish is this (DNA evil thing)
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Old 12-24-2015, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
Insisting on something is not the criteria for truthfulness. If they are misinterpreting the verses of the Quran than there is no escape for them. Quran says that killing of innocent people is Haram so there is no justification for killing people in Paris or anywhere in the world if they did it.
I am familiar with jihadists quoting various verses from the Quran to justify their acts which from the point of view perceive they are sincerely acting in accordance to Allah words to please him in order to secure their passage to paradise.
Here is one example, re Bin Laden's Letter to America;
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America' | World news | The Guardian
I have read of many such, e.g. the Autobiography of Imam Samudra -the Bali Bomber and others where they quote various verses from the Quran.


My point is;
WHO ARE YOU [me or others] to judge when the jihadists interpret the Quran sincerely to comply with the words of Allah?


Quote:
First I have to tell you that you always mention about 20% of muslims are evil which showed in survey who spoke in favor of ISIS, they did not mentioned what the context was in that survey where Christians and Buddhists also spoke in the favor of ISIS, so it doesn't mean that they are evil for sure. if for example someone ask me do you hate US Govt. for their policies in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, my answer will be yes but does it make me evil ?
thousand of people in US who are against those policies and hate their Govt., are they all evil ?
and from that survey you also have threat from your own 7% Christians and there are 6% Buddhists as well but still if US is labeled the Great Satan, it doesnt make all the citizen Satans its their Govt.
When crusaders conquered Jerusalem they killed almost all Muslims and history says blood was pouring in the streets but when Slahudin (May Allah pleased with him) conquered Jerusalem, he did not killed a single unarmed Christian because Islam do not allow killing of innocent people and Salahudin was very religious man and never missed his Salah and he was also a scholar before joining Army.
the logic you gave about all infidels are threat to Islam, if that was the case then there should be no Hindus left in the India because Muslim ruled it for 1000 years as well as Christians in Spain in fact when Christian conquered Spain they killed every single Muslim.
Your above views show a very shallow level of knowledge about human nature.


Woodrow LI has a psychological background and is a Vietnam War Veteran and he can readily agree with me that 20% of ALL humans are evil prone [has high level of tendency towards committing evil].
Now if 20% of All humans are evil prone then 20% of Muslims are evil prone.
That is simple logic!
You dispute this logical conclusion?
I suggest you brush up on your knowledge on the principles of the Normal Distribution.


It also mean 20% of Buddhists, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Taoist, and any other LARGE group of humans
are high tendencies towards evil.
The big difference with the 20% of evil prone in other religions is there are no leading evil and violent verses in their scriptures to inspire them commit terrible evils.
Islam with its core scripture, the Quran has tons of evil laden elements that inspire the natural 20% of evil prone Muslims to commit real terrible evils and violence. The proof of this is so glaringly evident.


In addition, if you look at the various polls on Muslims support for violence by ISIS or any groups, the average percentage is normally higher than 20%.


The 7% of Buddhists who supported ISIS [if it meant the evils and violence] are likely to be from the 20% of evil prone Buddhists who are naturally evil and not motivated by Buddhism itself. If these evil prone Buddhists have read the Quran, they may likely to convert to Islam so that can feast on the evils elements with the sanction of Allah.


The general context is the very existence of infidels are a threat to Islam. Theoretical, if possible Islam would exterminate them or subjugate them when they have the upper hand. However it is not practical for the Muslims who are undeveloped [as restraint by the Quran] has to leech on the non-Muslims with taxes and other facilities. Besides 80% of Muslims are moderates who compromise and ignore the evil verses in the Quran and behave as human beings with higher morals and focus on the good.



Quote:
Its like someone is lying and said do not accuse me of lying, Funny If God forbid, I was a Non-Muslim and had no knowledge about Islam even than i would not believe you because you did not provide any verses which supports your point. My argument is the same like before, Where did Quran give permission to kill innocent people unless someone attacks and try to kill Muslim, Self defense is allowed in all liberal and secular societies and same in Islam if someone attacks you
I mentioned I have spent a lot of time reading the Quran and researching on Islam and Muslims.
I assure you I will ensure I have maintain a personal credibility not to bullsh:it but based my arguments objectively from verses in the Quran.
I have been quoting verses from the Quran extensively throughout my postings and threads I started. Surely you read them for yourself.
As for the evil and violent elements I have given you a summary of how the whole load of verses with evil and violent laden elements in totality catalyze, inspire and motivate SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims to commit actual terrible evils and violence.


Here is a sample of evil and violent verses;
The Quran's Verses of Violence
There are many listings of such verses all over the internet.
However I don't believe these sample of the more extreme violent verses are sufficient to justify why SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims turned violent. There are more and we need to take them in the whole context of the Quran, Islam and the ethos of Muhammad plus the desperate psychology of believers.


I have exported the Quran to Microsoft Excel [the worksheet program] and analyze each verse into their various elements. There are about 20 main elements and 300 sub-elements.
What I have analyzed is 3400+ of the 6,236 verses in the Quran contain evil laden elements of various degrees from 1% to 99%.
I define 'evil' as any act and thoughts that is net-negative to the well being of the individual, a group and humanity.


After reading the Quran continuously in chronological order I am also psyched to be angry with the kuffar and brainwashed with the impulse to do VERY bad things to infidels. Fortunately as a non-believer it is easy to wake up to erase such impulses, and I can understand very clearly how it will impact the 20% of evil prone Muslims and the emergence of the jihadists.

Quote:
Is it a Scientific fact ? it means if someone commit a evil act then its not his fault because he has it in his DNA then why the punishment?, Just like if a abnormal or mentally unstable person commit a crime and you cannot punish him, What rubbish is this (DNA evil thing)
It is not exact Science but that can easily be inferred by psychology and the various advanced Sciences.
Again I suggest you brush up your knowledge on human nature.
People like Woodrow LI who had a bit of such knowledge would readily agree with me without me having to educate them, thus saving me a lot of time.

Hey, that is knowing yourself as a human being and the machinery that is in you.
Your questions above indicate you know very little about yourself as a human being and therefrom other human beings. That is very shameful when you are participating in an open forum like this.


Rubbish?
Rather your thinking and conclusion is rubbish.
It is very common is most courts of develop countries [with higher average developed and matured citizens] to recognize the madness factor when punishing a madman who has committed a 'crime'.
I hope you are aware of this and so I can avoid the hassle of arguing this point.
The degree of punishment will depend on the degree of madness as assessed by experts. It does not mean the madman will go free but s/he will be sent to a psychiatric prison to be cured instead of the usual punishments.


This is also a basis why I believe it is not the direct fault of the Muslims of ISIS and other jihadist groups that they commit terrible evils and violence.
The direct and ultimate fault lies on the very existence of Islam with its high % of evil laden elements [besides the good] in the Quran that emerged out of the history of mankind from the compulsion of one person or a group of person that is subsequently packaged as a religion.


The 20% of evil prone humans exist naturally and is unavoidable at present but they will get worse and trigger to evils and violence if they are exposed to evil laden elements under conditions of threats as religious matter of life or death.


This is why the more wiser religions like Buddhism, Janism, Taoism and the likes do not have leading, vague and inspiring evil and violent elements in their scriptures.
Such an absence of leading violent laden verses do not provide any opportunities for the natural 20% of evil prone believers to be inspired by the religion itself to commit evil and violence.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-24-2015 at 09:16 PM..
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Old 12-25-2015, 05:32 AM
 
88 posts, read 34,981 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am familiar with jihadists quoting various verses from the Quran to justify their acts which from the point of view perceive they are sincerely acting in accordance to Allah words to please him in order to secure their passage to paradise.
Here is one example, re Bin Laden's Letter to America;
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America' | World news | The Guardian
I have read of many such, e.g. the Autobiography of Imam Samudra -the Bali Bomber and others where they quote various verses from the Quran.

My point is;
WHO ARE YOU [me or others] to judge when the jihadists interpret the Quran sincerely to comply with the words of Allah?
I feel sorry for people like you who follow the deception so blindly. Btw the verses which are quoted in that letter has nothing to do with killing of Innocent people and if you want, we can discuss it separately. This is the authentic interview of Osama bin laden before war of Afghanistan.

Do not forget to read the Highlighted parts. Truth is in front of you but you dont wana see it.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/intervi...-in-9-11/24697

Y
Quote:
our above views show a very shallow level of knowledge about human nature.

Woodrow LI has a psychological background and is a Vietnam War Veteran and he can readily agree with me that 20% of ALL humans are evil prone [has high level of tendency towards committing evil].
Now if 20% of All humans are evil prone then 20% of Muslims are evil prone.
That is simple logic!
You dispute this logical conclusion?
I suggest you brush up on your knowledge on the principles of the Normal Distribution.

It also mean 20% of Buddhists, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Taoist, and any other LARGE group of humans
are high tendencies towards evil.
The big difference with the 20% of evil prone in other religions is there are no leading evil and violent verses in their scriptures to inspire them commit terrible evils.
Islam with its core scripture, the Quran has tons of evil laden elements that inspire the natural 20% of evil prone Muslims to commit real terrible evils and violence. The proof of this is so glaringly evident.

In addition, if you look at the various polls on Muslims support for violence by ISIS or any groups, the average percentage is normally higher than 20%.

The 7% of Buddhists who supported ISIS [if it meant the evils and violence] are likely to be from the 20% of evil prone Buddhists who are naturally evil and not motivated by Buddhism itself. If these evil prone Buddhists have read the Quran, they may likely to convert to Islam so that can feast on the evils elements with the sanction of Allah.

The general context is the very existence of infidels are a threat to Islam. Theoretical, if possible Islam would exterminate them or subjugate them when they have the upper hand. However it is not practical for the Muslims who are undeveloped [as restraint by the Quran] has to leech on the non-Muslims with taxes and other facilities. Besides 80% of Muslims are moderates who compromise and ignore the evil verses in the Quran and behave as human beings with higher morals and focus on the good.
.
your ignorance about if muslims had a upper hand they would have killed all infidel, Muslims ruled India for 1000 years and Spain about 800 years and there are more non Muslims then Muslims in those countries, your argument is rejected in the light of Historic Facts where there were no Human Rights at that time and they had every chance to kill them or forcefully convert them but They acted as Allah commanded them and they did not killed any innocent non-Muslims. There are Coptic Christians in Arab land living their for more then 1000 years and This is undeniable evidence that Islam do not allow killing of Infidel otherwise there should be no Christian in Arab land. I hope you will provide evidence not assumptions where Quran allowed killing of innocent people.

Again you are depending on your philosophy other then evidence, I am not denying the fact that there are some Muslims who may be evil but this not mean that if they justify their act from Quran then they are truthful. Thats why Majority of Muslims and All mainstream scholars condemned ISIS and called them un-islamic. I insist you to provide me a single verse and prove to me that due to this verse ISIS is killing innocent people and if I fail to give a solid logic and explanation then you can give your conclusions. in Reality you have nothing to support your argument and you always depend on your self made philosophies. just by saying evil laden element blah blah blah prove nothing provide a verse which supports your argument, obviously you will not do that because you read the Quran and you know you cant prove it so you are just beating around the bushes.

You provided website, which I consider a very weak excuse, I am not having a discussion with those people. You said you read the Quran and there are thousand of evil verses in Quran, if they want to discuss it here in this forum they are most welcome, but first you provide me those evil verses in two or three or upto 5 because I dont want to write a book here and its gets very boring to read wall of text. if you proved to me a single verse from those verses and I had no solid explanation then you can give your conclusions as much as you like but as a logical person you have to prove it first. From now on If you really want to prove something stay on the topic because you always beating around the bushes to divert it.
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Old 12-25-2015, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
I feel sorry for people like you who follow the deception so blindly. Btw the verses which are quoted in that letter has nothing to do with killing of Innocent people and if you want, we can discuss it separately. This is the authentic interview of Osama bin laden before war of Afghanistan.

Do not forget to read the Highlighted parts. Truth is in front of you but you dont wana see it.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/intervi...-in-9-11/24697
Btw, I don't need your 'sorry'. It is your own emotions that you have to deal with, why bother about others in this case.


The fact is the terrible range of evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims are real and the evidence is glaring.
Here is a list of evils of fatal incidents committed by SOME Muslims.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/TROP.jpg





This frightening statistics MERELY represent the most evils of the wide range of evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims. There a whole lot of lesser evils committed by SOME Muslims which are not included is this statistics.


I have researched and trace the ultimate root causes to the following;
1. 20% of all humans [including Muslims] are evil prone .
2. There are a tons of evil laden elements in the Quran.
3. The combination of 1 & 2 manifest real terrible evils and violence by SOME Muslims.
You keep asking for a single verse or a few verses that inspire SOME Muslims to commit evils and violence. In this case your are very ignorant of the Psychology of Evils and violence in terms of human nature.


In the research and studies of evils and violence often a person who commit terrible evils and violence is not influenced by a single incidents, one or a few exposures to a violent incident, etc.
The factors that contribute to a person committing violence is due to a framework and set of elements which comprise many variables which include the person's physiology [DNA], psychology, family background, childhood background, exposures to violence material and surroundings, etc.


Therefore to pick a few verses in the Quran and conclude it is violent is not the answer.
There are 300++ of violence verses in the Quran that lead the evil prone to violence and 3000++ evil laden verses of various degrees that support the background for the evil prone to commit violence.


Let me give you a clue, here it is;
Separating the world into “us” versus “them” is a dangerous mentality. In contrast, understanding human relationships in terms of individual rights and fluid group relationships may protect against such atrocities as genocide and ethnic cleansing.
https://clg.portalxm.com/library/key...keytext_id=167
One of the central theme of the Quran and Islam is the "us" versus "them" primal [animalistic] impulse. It is "us" =Muslim-God versus "them"=Kuffar-evil.
There are 3000++ verses that rely on the "us versus them" impulse to differentiate the Muslims [supposedly good] and the non-Muslims [supposedly evil]. Such a "us versus them" is evil laden of some degree [not the worst] of evilness in the context of the Quran and Islam.
I don't deny other religions [especially other Abrahamic religions] also rely on the 'us versus them' impulse but they don't have a no-holds-barred attitude on evils and violent elements.


Because the 'us versus them' primal impulse is so prevalent all over Islam and the Quran and it support all other types of evil and violent elements, Islam [in part] is very dangerous to humanity where the proofs of its potential evil and violence is glaringly evident.


I suggest you do more research on the above.


The reason why you are so defensive and do not want to acknowledge the truth and reality has something to do with the threat the truth will shatter the assurance of going to heaven.



Quote:
your ignorance about if muslims had a upper hand they would have killed all infidel, Muslims ruled India for 1000 years and Spain about 800 years and there are more non Muslims then Muslims in those countries, your argument is rejected in the light of Historic Facts where there were no Human Rights at that time and they had every chance to kill them or forcefully convert them but They acted as Allah commanded them and they did not killed any innocent non-Muslims. There are Coptic Christians in Arab land living their for more then 1000 years and This is undeniable evidence that Islam do not allow killing of Infidel otherwise there should be no Christian in Arab land. I hope you will provide evidence not assumptions where Quran allowed killing of innocent people.
Note I stated, theoretically and if possible. However in reality this is not possible.
Did you read these point in my posts?
It is because of the practical constraints that what I theorize did not happen.


Instead of asking where Quran allowed killing of innocent people, why not ask, where Quran allowed killing of Kuffar [disbelievers, infidels, non-Muslims].

Quote:
Again you are depending on your philosophy other then evidence, I am not denying the fact that there are some Muslims who may be evil but this not mean that if they justify their act from Quran then they are truthful.
Thats why Majority of Muslims and All mainstream scholars condemned ISIS and called them un-islamic. I insist you to provide me a single verse and prove to me that due to this verse ISIS is killing innocent people and if I fail to give a solid logic and explanation then you can give your conclusions. in Reality you have nothing to support your argument and you always depend on your self made philosophies. just by saying evil laden element blah blah blah prove nothing provide a verse which supports your argument, obviously you will not do that because you read the Quran and you know you cant prove it so you are just beating around the bushes.
Why do you keep for a single verse?
I have given you evidence from psychological researches that the factors that enable person[s] are due to a framework and set of elements, not due to one or a few verses.


Note my hypothesis is based on a top down basis, i.e. I start with real evidences of SOME Muslims committing real terrible evils and violence almost on a daily basis.
From an inference of contrast, no other believers of other religions commit so much terrible evils and violence like SOME Muslims of Islam.
Therefore the terrible evils and violence must have something to do with the religion, i.e. Islam itself.


Once I have narrow the ultimate cause to Islam itself, my research show that the contributing factor is a the ethos, the framework and a whole load of evil laden element in the Quran and the martial background of Muhammad.

Quote:
You provided website, which I consider a very weak excuse, I am not having a discussion with those people. You said you read the Quran and there are thousand of evil verses in Quran, if they want to discuss it here in this forum they are most welcome, but first you provide me those evil verses in two or three or upto 5 because I dont want to write a book here and its gets very boring to read wall of text. if you proved to me a single verse from those verses and I had no solid explanation then you can give your conclusions as much as you like but as a logical person you have to prove it first. From now on If you really want to prove something stay on the topic because you always beating around the bushes to divert it.
What I did was giving a sample of the more extreme verses from that site based on a quick search, it could be from anywhere via google.


I mentioned I have done my analysis in Microsoft Excel based on a list of main variables and 300++ sub-variable that substantiate why the Quran contain evil laden elements of various degree.
Note 'various degrees' mean a range from 1%Low to 100%high.


For a similar analysis, note these statistics,
Center for the Study of Political Islam
They also give a list of verses that support their conclusions.
This analysis is based on each ideas [which is more precise] not based on each verse.
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Old 12-28-2015, 02:42 PM
 
88 posts, read 34,981 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
he fact is the terrible range of evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims are real and the evidence is glaring.
Here is a list of evils of fatal incidents committed by SOME Muslims.......................
Before 9/11 there is a long list of terrorist groups and you will hardly find a Islamic terrorist group. they also include Afghan freedom fighters as terrorist group so its not mean that you can simply blame Islam. every terrorist group has a political root cause. Islam do not encourage killing of innocent people. You believe whatever you want but you cannot prove any verse that allows killing of innocent Kuffar. If someone doing that then he is to be blamed + US who created most of them, like Osama, Alqaeda, ISIS etc.

Quote:
Separating the world into “us” versus “them” is a dangerous mentality. In contrast, understanding human relationships in terms of individual rights and fluid group relationships may protect against such atrocities as genocide and ethnic cleansing.
https://clg.portalxm.com/library/key...keytext_id=167
One of the central theme of the Quran and Islam is the "us" versus "them" primal [animalistic] impulse. It is "us" =Muslim-God versus "them"=Kuffar-evil.
There are 3000++ verses that rely on the "us versus them" impulse to differentiate the Muslims [supposedly good] and the non-Muslims [supposedly evil]. Such a "us versus them" is evil laden of some degree [not the worst] of evilness in the context of the Quran and Islam.
I don't deny other religions [especially other Abrahamic religions] also rely on the 'us versus them' impulse but they don't have a no-holds-barred attitude on evils and violent elements.
In every religion there is us and them like Hindu or non Hindu, Christian or Non Christian, there is nothing that says kill everyone.. actually Bush used this term either you with us or against us. US or Them did not mean there are to be killed. there is US versus Them only unless a group of people attack us.

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The reason why you are so defensive and do not want to acknowledge the truth and reality has something to do with the threat the truth will shatter the assurance of going to heaven.
The reason is, I know Islam and its teachings and you dont.

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Instead of asking where Quran allowed killing of innocent people, why not ask, where Quran allowed killing of Kuffar [disbelievers, infidels, non-Muslims].
OK where did Quran allowed killing of innocent Kuffar ?

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Why do you keep for a single verse?
I have given you evidence from psychological researches that the factors that enable person[s] are due to a framework and set of elements, not due to one or a few verses.

Note my hypothesis is based on a top down basis, i.e. I start with real evidences of SOME Muslims committing real terrible evils and violence almost on a daily basis.
From an inference of contrast, no other believers of other religions commit so much terrible evils and violence like SOME Muslims of Islam.
Therefore the terrible evils and violence must have something to do with the religion, i.e. Islam itself.

Once I have narrow the ultimate cause to Islam itself, my research show that the contributing factor is a the ethos, the framework and a whole load of evil laden element in the Quran and the martial background of Muhammad.
There are tons of verse about violence even pornography in Bible, is Christianity evil? do you use word violence for defending himself against attack or in battle ? in the war or battle you will only find violence not a comedy show.

What I did was giving a sample of the more extreme verses from that site based on a quick search, it could be from anywhere via google.

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I mentioned I have done my analysis in Microsoft Excel based on a list of main variables and 300++ sub-variable that substantiate why the Quran contain evil laden elements of various degree.
Note 'various degrees' mean a range from 1%Low to 100%high.

For a similar analysis, note these statistics,
They also give a list of verses that support their conclusions.
This analysis is based on each ideas [which is more precise] not based on each verse.
If you considering even self defense as violence then you are living in Disney Land but there is no killing of innocent Kuffar in Quran only if they attack you or otherwise you have to consider all the liberal and secular Constitutions as violence because they give permission to defend yourself same is in the Quran that when someone attack you, defend yourself and family.
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Old 12-28-2015, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
Before 9/11 there is a long list of terrorist groups and you will hardly find a Islamic terrorist group. they also include Afghan freedom fighters as terrorist group so its not mean that you can simply blame Islam. every terrorist group has a political root cause. Islam do not encourage killing of innocent people. You believe whatever you want but you cannot prove any verse that allows killing of innocent Kuffar. If someone doing that then he is to be blamed + US who created most of them, like Osama, Alqaeda, ISIS etc.
1. Ever since humanity emerged there have been terrible evils and violence committed by humans and some are definitely worst than what SOME Muslims as inspired by the ethos of evil elements in the Quran has done.
2. Humans has continued and will continue to commit all sorts of evils and violence and humanity must addressed all these evils without exceptions.
3. To be efficient, we must break down the various types of evils and deal with them by types and categories. It is not efficient to lump them all in all cases.
4. One of the types of evils and violence are the Religious-Related-Evils.
5. Within 4 there is the Religion-Inspired-Evils which is a part [not whole] of Islam.


Note how I break up the problem of evil as above into its effective layers [1-5] to promote efficiency.
Your view is to conflate all of them [due to emotional and psychological impulses] which is not efficient.


Why I am referring to only evils related to Islam and not others is because of protocol of keeping to topic. This forum is related to 'Islam' therefore we discuss evils in relation to Islam and not others [to be dealt in their relevant forum].


Based on my research, all Islam-inspired evils and violence can be traced to the following ultimate root causes;


1. >55% of evil laden verses in the Quran and its martial ethos.
2. 20% of humans, thus 20% of Muslims are naturally evil prone.


We can infer Islam is partly to be blamed because other religions [e.g. Buddhism, Jainism, etc.] and the believers are not inspired to evils and violence as there are no leading [note this point] evil laden verses in their scriptures.


Quote:
In every religion there is us and them like Hindu or non Hindu, Christian or Non Christian, there is nothing that says kill everyone.. actually Bush used this term either you with us or against us. US or Them did not mean there are to be killed. there is US versus Them only unless a group of people attack us.
1. The primal "us versus them" instinct is inherent in all humans and it still exists within humanity at present albeit not as forceful as in the primitive era. It has its necessary pros and condemned cons.
2. Humanity is evolving and progressing and are taking serious steps to curb this primal "us versus them" and suppress it as much as possible. Note racism and tribalism are condemned at present.
3. Bush exploited such an instinct, but he was condemned for it and where is Bush now? Hitler and many others also exploited this instinct to evils and where are they now -GONE for good!!
4. Humanity is thus very alert to the potential evil from the "us versus them" to modulate it to the minimum.

5. HOWEVER, the problem is in Islam the "us versus them" instinct in its worst negative and evil mode is proclaimed in 3400++ verses by Allah and carved in stone[fixed and immutable] in the Quran till eternity. Read the Quran yourself and note the highlight of the kafir in 1 in 2 of the verses.
The 20% of evil prone humans, thus 20% evil prone Muslims will always be there and they will be influenced by the evil aspects of the 'us versus them' impulse.


Therefore your deflection to bring the 'us versus them' instinct into other aspects of life as a counter is useless.
We need to recognize the evil effects of 'us versus them' in the Quran and thus Islam.


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The reason is, I know Islam and its teachings and you don't.
I challenge you to tell me what is that you know about Islam that I do not know.
What I have in addition over you is the extensive range of non-Islam knowledge.


Quote:
OK where did Quran allowed killing of innocent Kuffar ?
As I had mentioned there is no single or small set of verses that inspire Muslims to kill the kuffar.
I have listed there whole set of verses and ethos that drive SOME Muslims to kill the kuffar and even Muslims in the believe they are obeying the words of Allah as in the Quran. [indirectly from the Hadiths and other sources.


Vulnerable children and adults are not killers based on exposure to one or two violent scenes from various medias. What drove children and adults to kill as serial killers and mass murders is due to a set of complex variables that include their inherent human nature and their exposures to evils over their life.


Quote:
There are tons of verse about violence even pornography in Bible, is Christianity evil? do you use word violence for defending himself against attack or in battle ? in the war or battle you will only find violence not a comedy show.

What I did was giving a sample of the more extreme verses from that site based on a quick search, it could be from anywhere via google.
The standard approach to any issue or problem is one must do a detailed analysis and trace the problem to its ultimate root causes.
There are tons of evil & violent laden verses in the Bible in the Old Testaments [perhaps more than the Quran].
But as I have explained many times, in Christianity the OT is overridden by the New Testament.
There may be some evil laden elements in the NT but these are limited by the pacifist MAXIM of 'love your enemies' and other limiting pacifist verses.


I have mentioned this before.
War in principle is one of the worst immoral acts of humanity which is tolerated [cannot be avoided at present] but humanity is striving hard to remove War forever. Obviously in war there will be terrible evils and violence. Since war cannot be prevented at present, humanity are attempting to minimize the impact of war by introducing Rules of War and Courts to try war crimes.


The problem with Islam is its the immutable words of Allah in the Quran which cannot be changed, edited and removed.
Therefore the war verses which directly and indirectly inspire SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence will be there for eternity. This meant that war from the perspective of Islam is a never ending affair which will defeat humanity quests to end all wars.
That is why I said those war verses should never have been included in a religious or way of life ideology if Islam is touted by be a Peaceful religion or way of life.
In contrast, note the religions [or way of life] of Buddhism and others who had wiser founders and were matured enough to exclude evil and violent laden verses in their scriptures.


Quote:
If you considering even self defense as violence then you are living in Disney Land but there is no killing of innocent Kuffar in Quran only if they attack you or otherwise you have to consider all the liberal and secular Constitutions as violence because they give permission to defend yourself same is in the Quran that when someone attack you, defend yourself and family.
Note my point above.
If it is obvious self-defense and killing is necessary, there is no issue and accepted by any normal human being.
In fact there is no need to mention or advise any one to defense oneself and kill if necessary. It is quite stupid to advise any one to defend oneself.
Do I need to advise you to defense yourself if your life is threatened?
I will be stupid to advise you on such a obvious and instinctual act.
It is just like advising someone to eat when hungry or even f... when one feel lusty.


So there is no need to include "self-defense" response in any theistic texts which can easily be exploited by the evil prone who interpret it from the perspective with the sanction of God.
The Quran made a big mistake of including the obvious self-defense response in its texts after it has emphasized on the 'us versus them" impulse negatively against the kuffar.


The truth was Muhammad [or a group of people] who has authored the Quran has a martial and imperialistic motives and abused the God concept for their personal interests in war and killing in the guise of self-defense.
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Old 12-29-2015, 03:33 AM
 
88 posts, read 34,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1. Ever since humanity emerged there have been terrible evils and violence committed by humans and some are definitely worst than what SOME Muslims as inspired by the ethos of evil elements in the Quran has done.
2. Humans has continued and will continue to commit all sorts of evils and violence and humanity must addressed all these evils without exceptions.
3. To be efficient, we must break down the various types of evils and deal with them by types and categories. It is not efficient to lump them all in all cases.
4. One of the types of evils and violence are the Religious-Related-Evils.
5. Within 4 there is the Religion-Inspired-Evils which is a part [not whole] of Islam.

Note how I break up the problem of evil as above into its effective layers [1-5] to promote efficiency.
Your view is to conflate all of them [due to emotional and psychological impulses] which is not efficient.

Why I am referring to only evils related to Islam and not others is because of protocol of keeping to topic. This forum is related to 'Islam' therefore we discuss evils in relation to Islam and not others [to be dealt in their relevant forum].

Based on my research, all Islam-inspired evils and violence can be traced to the following ultimate root causes;

1. >55% of evil laden verses in the Quran and its martial ethos.
2. 20% of humans, thus 20% of Muslims are naturally evil prone.

We can infer Islam is partly to be blamed because other religions [e.g. Buddhism, Jainism, etc.] and the believers are not inspired to evils and violence as there are no leading [note this point] evil laden verses in their scriptures.
.
You are repeating the same line again n again based on your research which has no credibility and far from truth. You are considering self defense as evil and violence, war, battles, all of them are evil and violence. Yes I agree that there is violence in wars and battles but you are giving sweeping statement without considering the fact that fighting in just cause is not evil and this is not the criteria to judge religion. if you put religion aside and look in the past, it shows most of the wars started due to political conflict not religion. Atheist regimes proved more brutal and evil then any other in past. Wars and conflict are reality of human life and if someone like your who thinks that the world will be safer without religion are just fooling themselves. Quran gives permission to muslims to defend themselves if a group of people attacks them which is not evil in any sense. just by saying that 55% evil verses is not enough and you need to prove it first with evidence instead of throwing lines in the air. You cannot even partly blame Islam just because someone using it for justification in wrong way, first you need to prove that here are verses which supports your argument.

Quote:
1. The primal "us versus them" instinct is inherent in all humans and it still exists within humanity at present albeit not as forceful as in the primitive era. It has its necessary pros and condemned cons.
2. Humanity is evolving and progressing and are taking serious steps to curb this primal "us versus them" and suppress it as much as possible. Note racism and tribalism are condemned at present.
3. Bush exploited such an instinct, but he was condemned for it and where is Bush now? Hitler and many others also exploited this instinct to evils and where are they now -GONE for good!!
4. Humanity is thus very alert to the potential evil from the "us versus them" to modulate it to the minimum.
Actually Bush enjoyed his terms as president of US and he got away with it for killing millions of people in Afghanistan and Iraq and not held responsible for it. There will be always us versus them even if there is no religion so your statement is far away from reality and looks good only in Hollywood Movies (Most of the movies are based on fiction and not reality so come out of Hollywood world, dont take then too seriously ).

Quote:
5. HOWEVER, the problem is in Islam the "us versus them" instinct in its worst negative and evil mode is proclaimed in 3400++ verses by Allah and carved in stone[fixed and immutable] in the Quran till eternity. Read the Quran yourself and note the highlight of the kafir in 1 in 2 of the verses.
The 20% of evil prone humans, thus 20% evil prone Muslims will always be there and they will be influenced by the evil aspects of the 'us versus them' impulse.

Therefore your deflection to bring the 'us versus them' instinct into other aspects of life as a counter is useless.
We need to recognize the evil effects of 'us versus them' in the Quran and thus Islam.
You can only call those verses evil if it allows killing of innocent Kuffar, Killing of those evil Kuffar in battle field is not evil who attacked and killed men, women and children, it is just. Its only your hatred towards Islam and Muslim which influencing your research and judgment.

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I challenge you to tell me what is that you know about Islam that I do not know.
What I have in addition over you is the extensive range of non-Islam knowledge.
I know Islam allows fight only in self defense and it should be just, which you dont know or may be know but out of hatred you just want to spread evil propaganda about Islam or may be getting paid for it, I am not sure

Quote:
As I had mentioned there is no single or small set of verses that inspire Muslims to kill the kuffar.
I have listed there whole set of verses and ethos that drive SOME Muslims to kill the kuffar and even Muslims in the believe they are obeying the words of Allah as in the Quran. [indirectly from the Hadiths and other sources.

Vulnerable children and adults are not killers based on exposure to one or two violent scenes from various medias. What drove children and adults to kill as serial killers and mass murders is due to a set of complex variables that include their inherent human nature and their exposures to evils over their life.
You are simple mistaken or purposely trying to spread misconception about Islam. If there is no verse which allowed Muslim to kill innocent Kuffar then you are just speculating and making things up or there is hatred which driving you to those conclusions. Things dont work on speculations, your posts which I a read so far, I think you are getting paid for this propaganda about Islam. Its my speculation, is it true?

T
Quote:
he standard approach to any issue or problem is one must do a detailed analysis and trace the problem to its ultimate root causes.
There are tons of evil & violent laden verses in the Bible in the Old Testaments [perhaps more than the Quran].
But as I have explained many times, in Christianity the OT is overridden by the New Testament.
There may be some evil laden elements in the NT but these are limited by the pacifist MAXIM of 'love your enemies' and other limiting pacifist verses.

First there are still verses about fighting in NT and you cannot simple change word of God, It means christian missionaries made up Christianity and they are changing word of their "god" whenever they want which confirms this is man made religion. Love your enemy thing ? is this seems realistic to you ? then why the pope francis declared war on ISIS? why he is not loving his enemy in compliance with word of God?

Quote:
I have mentioned this before.
War in principle is one of the worst immoral acts of humanity which is tolerated [cannot be avoided at present] but humanity is striving hard to remove War forever. Obviously in war there will be terrible evils and violence. Since war cannot be prevented at present, humanity are attempting to minimize the impact of war by introducing Rules of War and Courts to try war crimes.
In Islam There are already rules mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah that during war you cannot kill innocent people (deliberately killing of women and children and those who are not fighting or pose no harm is Big Sin, even cutting down tree without reason is prohibited.), If enemy do not want to fight and want peace then fighting is prohibited for Muslims.

Quote:
Note my point above.
If it is obvious self-defense and killing is necessary, there is no issue and accepted by any normal human being.
In fact there is no need to mention or advise any one to defense oneself and kill if necessary. It is quite stupid to advise any one to defend oneself.
Do I need to advise you to defense yourself if your life is threatened?
I will be stupid to advise you on such a obvious and instinctual act.
It is just like advising someone to eat when hungry or even f... when one feel lusty.

So there is no need to include "self-defense" response in any theistic texts which can easily be exploited by the evil prone who interpret it from the perspective with the sanction of God.
The Quran made a big mistake of including the obvious self-defense response in its texts after it has emphasized on the 'us versus them" impulse negatively against the kuffar.

The truth was Muhammad [or a group of people] who has authored the Quran has a martial and imperialistic motives and abused the God concept for their personal interests in war and killing in the guise of self-defense.
Well you just need a common sense to know that the people thousands of year ago were not familiar with so much knowledge, and also if thats the case then why they do not exclude the self defense law from their constitution as you said they already know it. almost all religion allow self defense to ensure their followers that they have not committed a Sin by defending themselves.
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Old 12-29-2015, 09:14 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,908 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
I know Islam allows fight only in self defense and it should be just, which you dont know or may be know but out of hatred you just want to spread evil propaganda about Islam or may be getting paid for it, I am not sure

You are simple mistaken or purposely trying to spread misconception about Islam. If there is no verse which allowed Muslim to kill innocent Kuffar then you are just speculating and making things up or there is hatred which driving you to those conclusions. Things dont work on speculations, your posts which I a read so far, I think you are getting paid for this propaganda about Islam. Its my speculation, is it true?
Let's see....

Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
Qur'an 33:21

Muhammed's actions and teachings:

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)

Not self defense.

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: If you come to a township (which has surrendered without a formal war) and stay therein, you have a share (that will be in the form of an award) in (the properties obtained from) it. If a township disobeys Allah and His Messenger (and actually fights against the Muslims) one-fifth of the booty seized therefrom is for Allah and His Apostle and the rest is for you. (Sahih Muslim 4346)

As can be seen, those who were not at war with the Muslims are to be subjugated anyway, and their property seized. Not self-defense.

Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

Obviously self-defense was not a factor.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them (Quran 9:5)
The words, “when the forbidden months are past,” precludes the possibility that this was a matter of self-defense.

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Quran 9:29

We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried, “Muhammad with his force,” and turned tail and fled… The apostle seized the property piece by piece… (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

The people of Khaybar were not attacking Muhammad. There was no self-defense here.

When the apostle raided a people he waited until the morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back; if he did not hear it he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night, and the apostle passed the night there; and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)
Muhammad attacked only after waiting to see if the people of Khaybar issued a morning call to prayer. This would have no possible relevance had they already been at war with him.

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)
The question Ali posed would have been unnecessary had the Muslims been under attack by the Khaybar or if the answer to the question were obvious.

The prophet of Islam plans a surprise attack on Mecca:

[Muhammad] said, “Oh Allah, take eyes and ears from the Quraysh [Mecca] so that we may take them by surprise in their land,” and the men got themselves ready. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 808)

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them.” (Sahih Muslim 4322, see also Bukhari 52:256)
Seems women and children are collateral damage and slaughtering them is entirely acceptable if it accomplishes the military goal of spreading Islamic rule. Certainly rape is just fine.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. Quran 9:29

They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein. Quran 2:217

This one is ironic because Muslims can shove Islam down the throats of others and oppress them, but if non-Muslims do the same then Muslims are to slaughter them.

Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah: They said: "Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not Grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least! Quran 4:77

Incitement to violence. Why not let them stay home? Why force people to fight?

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do. Quran 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. Quran 8:65

And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease. Quran 9:12

So, instead of simply stopping making oaths with them and ignoring them, fight them. Let's remember Muhammed was an oath breaker. And he sure attacked the religion of others!!

Had it been a near gain (booty in front of them) and an easy journey, they would have followed you, but the distance (Tabuk expedition) was long for them, and they would swear by Allah, "If we only could, we would certainly have come forth with you." They destroy their ownselves, and Allah knows that they are liars. Quran 9:42

Muhammed and his gang have to travel far to defend themselves and steal booty!!

O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination. Quran 9:73

Those who were left behind (in the Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight, with their goods and their persons, in the cause of Allah: they said, "Go not forth in the heat." Say, "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand! Quran 9:81

Don't go with Muhammed to fight and you'll burn in hell.

Accursed, wherever found, they shall be seized and killed with a (terrible) slaughter. Quran 33:61

WOO HOO, and what crime deserves slaughter?

If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease and those who spread rumors in al-Madinah do not cease, We will surely incite you against them; then they will not remain your neighbors therein except for a little. Quran 22:60

There is so much more, and so little time.
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Old 12-29-2015, 11:31 AM
 
88 posts, read 34,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Let's see....

Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
Qur'an 33:21

Muhammed's actions and teachings:

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)

Not self defense.

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: If you come to a township (which has surrendered without a formal war) and stay therein, you have a share (that will be in the form of an award) in (the properties obtained from) it. If a township disobeys Allah and His Messenger (and actually fights against the Muslims) one-fifth of the booty seized therefrom is for Allah and His Apostle and the rest is for you. (Sahih Muslim 4346)

As can be seen, those who were not at war with the Muslims are to be subjugated anyway, and their property seized. Not self-defense.

Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

Obviously self-defense was not a factor.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them (Quran 9:5)
The words, “when the forbidden months are past,” precludes the possibility that this was a matter of self-defense.

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Quran 9:29

We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried, “Muhammad with his force,” and turned tail and fled… The apostle seized the property piece by piece… (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

The people of Khaybar were not attacking Muhammad. There was no self-defense here.

When the apostle raided a people he waited until the morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back; if he did not hear it he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night, and the apostle passed the night there; and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)
Muhammad attacked only after waiting to see if the people of Khaybar issued a morning call to prayer. This would have no possible relevance had they already been at war with him.

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)
The question Ali posed would have been unnecessary had the Muslims been under attack by the Khaybar or if the answer to the question were obvious.

The prophet of Islam plans a surprise attack on Mecca:

[Muhammad] said, “Oh Allah, take eyes and ears from the Quraysh [Mecca] so that we may take them by surprise in their land,” and the men got themselves ready. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 808)

It is reported on the authority of Sa'b b. Jaththama that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him), when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said: “They are from them.” (Sahih Muslim 4322, see also Bukhari 52:256)
Seems women and children are collateral damage and slaughtering them is entirely acceptable if it accomplishes the military goal of spreading Islamic rule. Certainly rape is just fine.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. Quran 9:29

They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein. Quran 2:217

This one is ironic because Muslims can shove Islam down the throats of others and oppress them, but if non-Muslims do the same then Muslims are to slaughter them.

Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah: They said: "Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not Grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least! Quran 4:77

Incitement to violence. Why not let them stay home? Why force people to fight?

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do. Quran 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. Quran 8:65

And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease. Quran 9:12

So, instead of simply stopping making oaths with them and ignoring them, fight them. Let's remember Muhammed was an oath breaker. And he sure attacked the religion of others!!

Had it been a near gain (booty in front of them) and an easy journey, they would have followed you, but the distance (Tabuk expedition) was long for them, and they would swear by Allah, "If we only could, we would certainly have come forth with you." They destroy their ownselves, and Allah knows that they are liars. Quran 9:42

Muhammed and his gang have to travel far to defend themselves and steal booty!!

O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination. Quran 9:73

Those who were left behind (in the Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight, with their goods and their persons, in the cause of Allah: they said, "Go not forth in the heat." Say, "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand! Quran 9:81

Don't go with Muhammed to fight and you'll burn in hell.

Accursed, wherever found, they shall be seized and killed with a (terrible) slaughter. Quran 33:61

WOO HOO, and what crime deserves slaughter?

If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease and those who spread rumors in al-Madinah do not cease, We will surely incite you against them; then they will not remain your neighbors therein except for a little. Quran 22:60

There is so much more, and so little time.
if you wan to debate it then you have to bring one, two, three or maximum four point at a time, copy pasting from anti-Islamic website is easy, All the references you quoted, has a certain context of war and battle. Its get so boring to me and for others to read the mountain of text which I already know they are misquoted. Did you have anything from you own other then copy / past from website without even reading it.
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