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Old 12-29-2015, 11:48 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
if you wan to debate it then you have to bring one, two, three or maximum four point at a time, copy pasting from anti-Islamic website is easy, All the references you quoted, has a certain context of war and battle. Its get so boring to me and for others to read the mountain of text which I already know they are misquoted. Did you have anything from you own other then copy / past from website without even reading it.
Got most of them straight from the Quran. I did a search on 'fight' and went through the hits. It gets so boring for me to read the excuse of context over and over. And I do look at context. The larger context makes things even worse for Islam!

I also searched on disbelievers. Got 661 hits. How many verses are there in the Quran? A bit over 6,000? So over 10% of the Quran refers to disbelievers!! That is an interesting context. People are evil if they are disbelievers.

Do you think disbelievers are evil or do you think Allah/Muhammed is wrong to write such hateful things against disbelievers?
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Old 12-29-2015, 07:15 PM
 
88 posts, read 35,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Got most of them straight from the Quran. I did a search on 'fight' and went through the hits. It gets so boring for me to read the excuse of context over and over. And I do look at context. The larger context makes things even worse for Islam!

I also searched on disbelievers. Got 661 hits. How many verses are there in the Quran? A bit over 6,000? So over 10% of the Quran refers to disbelievers!! That is an interesting context. People are evil if they are disbelievers.

Do you think disbelievers are evil or do you think Allah/Muhammed is wrong to write such hateful things against disbelievers?
well Most of the things you misquoted are from Hadiths and few verses from the Quran. Context is very important in any statement for example US is fighting a war in Afghanistan and Iraq and their soldiers are going on a mission where Talibans are hiding or planing to attack them and their commander says Wherever you find Afghani/Iraqi kill them. Now if I copy his statement (wherever you find Afghani/Iraqi kill them) and show to the world that look he is talking about genocide, this is a misquoted statement and to know if the commander is really evil, we have to know that in which context he gave this statement, without context you can prove anyone wrong. Just by searching for the specific word like fighting or killing is not the criteria to make judgement on anything, it shows lack of intelligence or evil intentions.

First thing you need to know is that before making up your mind about why Allah(swt) dislike the disbeliever you need to put Atheism aside because when you will make judgement with certain frame of mind like "God do not exist" you can never understand it. lets suppose that God exist and He created human being only to worship Him alone, created this world, gave human beings everything. Now if humans started to worship other then the Creator and become disbeliever and dont believe in Him and following the footsteps of satan and God Almighty watching them that satan is leading them to the hellfire, dont you think that person is worse who cannot thank his own Creator? if you create a robot only to do your work and after you created him that robot started to do work of your neighbor or others and do not even thank you for creating him, would you like it ? obviously not.
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Old 12-29-2015, 08:26 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 754,999 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
well Most of the things you misquoted are from Hadiths and few verses from the Quran. Context is very important in any statement for example US is fighting a war in Afghanistan and Iraq and their soldiers are going on a mission where Talibans are hiding or planing to attack them and their commander says Wherever you find Afghani/Iraqi kill them. Now if I copy his statement (wherever you find Afghani/Iraqi kill them) and show to the world that look he is talking about genocide, this is a misquoted statement and to know if the commander is really evil, we have to know that in which context he gave this statement, without context you can prove anyone wrong. Just by searching for the specific word like fighting or killing is not the criteria to make judgement on anything, it shows lack of intelligence or evil intentions.

First thing you need to know is that before making up your mind about why Allah(swt) dislike the disbeliever you need to put Atheism aside because when you will make judgement with certain frame of mind like "God do not exist" you can never understand it. lets suppose that God exist and He created human being only to worship Him alone, created this world, gave human beings everything. Now if humans started to worship other then the Creator and become disbeliever and dont believe in Him and following the footsteps of satan and God Almighty watching them that satan is leading them to the hellfire, dont you think that person is worse who cannot thank his own Creator? if you create a robot only to do your work and after you created him that robot started to do work of your neighbor or others and do not even thank you for creating him, would you like it ? obviously not.
Nope, most of them are straight from the Quran. What did I misquote? If you are going to make accusations, back them up.

First thing you need to know is that before making up your mind about why Allah(swt) dislike the disbeliever you need to put Islam aside because when you will make judgement with certain frame of mind like "Allah exists" you can never understand it. You give up all rationality then. Your mind becomes garbage.

In fact, your whole rant about Allah is irrational. The very thought that some supernatural creator of the universe, billions and billions of stars, exists, and that further this supernatural being cares about some disbelievers on one planet...it's laughable. Further is the issue that someone's belief can be won over by threats of endless punishment!

Hey, unless you follow Scientology and dismiss this evil Allah, thetans will rip your heart out through your throat!! Did that work? You a Scientologist now? In fact, threats of horrible torture tend to turn people off.
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Old 12-29-2015, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,591,365 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
You are repeating the same line again n again based on your research which has no credibility and far from truth.
You are considering self defense as evil and violence, war, battles, all of them are evil and violence. Yes I agree that there is violence in wars and battles but you are giving sweeping statement without considering the fact that fighting in just cause is not evil and this is not the criteria to judge religion. if you put religion aside and look in the past, it shows most of the wars started due to political conflict not religion.
Atheist regimes proved more brutal and evil then any other in past. Wars and conflict are reality of human life and if someone like your who thinks that the world will be safer without religion are just fooling themselves.
Quran gives permission to muslims to defend themselves if a group of people attacks them which is not evil in any sense. just by saying that 55% evil verses is not enough and you need to prove it first with evidence instead of throwing lines in the air. You cannot even partly blame Islam just because someone using it for justification in wrong way, first you need to prove that here are verses which supports your argument.
My hypothesis as below [repeated] is solid and sound;
Based on my research, all Islam-inspired evils and violence can be traced to the following ultimate root causes;

1. >55% of evil laden verses in the Quran and its martial ethos.
2. 20% of humans, thus 20% of Muslims are naturally evil prone.

3. We can infer Islam is partly to be blamed because other religions [e.g. Buddhism, Jainism, etc.] and the believers are not inspired to evils and violence as there are no leading [note this point] evil laden verses in their scriptures.
What is outstanding I agree is the evidence of the >55% of evil laden verses [of various degrees]. I have it on hand but it is too massive for me to deliver it at the moment. I have an analysis of it by each chapter and Meccan/Medina.


In the meantime you can do your own estimation from the verses of the Quran.
I have also given you a link to a more precise analysis from the following site;
Center for the Study of Political Islam
This site provide a lists of supporting verses for its percentages based on each idea which is more accurate rather than verses.


My analysis is based on the analysis of each verse which is easier but not very precise.
The >55% of evil laden verses are those of lesser evil but nevertheless evil laden. There are 300++ verses that are related to fighting the kuffar, these are of the greater evil categories.


I mentioned the Quran condoned the killing of the kuffar if Islam is threatened and/or wronged based on certain terms which lead to SOME Muslims in interpreting certain acts that warrant them to fight and kill the kuffar. This is one critical point.
Another point is there are elements of self-defense in the Quran. I maintain it is a BIG mistake to include self-defense elements in the Quran that leave it open to abuse by SOME evil prone Muslims.


Again you are desperate and resort to the Tu Quogue fallacy. I have said many times, humanity must addressed all evils regardless of who [theists or non-theists] commit it. I have done extensive research on the Philosophy of Evil [not the existence of an ontological Satan].
This forum is about Islam not about atheists. If you want to discuss violence by atheist, do it in the 'Atheist Forum' or the 'Political Forum'.


Quote:
Actually Bush enjoyed his terms as president of US and he got away with it for killing millions of people in Afghanistan and Iraq and not held responsible for it. There will be always us versus them even if there is no religion so your statement is far away from reality and looks good only in Hollywood Movies (Most of the movies are based on fiction and not reality so come out of Hollywood world, dont take then too seriously ).
Again to go more about Bush is off topic. Nevertheless Bush has been criticized for his actions from the political perspectives. If Bush has been guilty I am sure there would a lot of call for him to face his war crimes in the International Criminal Court, but there were no significant call in regards to Bush's actions.


Quote:
You can only call those verses evil if it allows killing of innocent Kuffar, Killing of those evil Kuffar in battle field is not evil who attacked and killed men, women and children, it is just. Its only your hatred towards Islam and Muslim which influencing your research and judgment.
Note I labeled those Quranic verses as EVIL LADEN, i.e. they contain elements of evil.

There are many movies [and other medias] that contain evil laden elements and they are censored, banned or rated with PG ratings. They are not called evil movies. These movies which contain lots of evil laden elements can influence vulnerable children and adults to commit evil acts if not censored or qualified.


It is the same with the Quran which contains tons of evil laden elements which inspire the 20% of evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.


My critique of Islam [not specifically Muslims] as an ideology is based on my serious concern as a citizen of humanity based on compassion and empathy for the victims and potential threat to humanity.

My critique of Islam starts from facts, example, this very frightening and horrific number as below;




The above is a sample of events [there are many other facts of violence] that triggered me to find out why there is so much evils and violence from Muslims. Note my strength is in problem-solving techniques so it very easy for me to track the problem to the ultimate root causes.
Those root causes are reflected in my hypothesis above.


Quote:
I know Islam allows fight only in self defense and it should be just, which you dont know or may be know but out of hatred you just want to spread evil propaganda about Islam or may be getting paid for it, I am not sure
Your so called 'knowledge' is screwed and skewed by your desperate emotional and psychological impulse to be blind to truth.
Note Mcquire's Inoculation Theory [Woodrow LI is familiar and cling to this theory], Confirmation bias, attentive blindness and all sort of biasness to ensure you go to Paradise and avoid Hell.


No one is paying me for my critique of Islam. I would welcome if any one is willing to pay me for it. What is critical is my personal integrity in discussing with facts objective. I hope to write a book that will provide all the relevant supporting evidence and distribute it for free to warn humanity of the facts and truths objectively.
Theists rely on Faith, i.e. beliefs without proofs and reasons therefore they rely on their subjective, emotional and psychological impulses plus they can lie for there is no need to verify whatever is based on faith.


Quote:
You are simple mistaken or purposely trying to spread misconception about Islam. If there is no verse which allowed Muslim to kill innocent Kuffar then you are just speculating and making things up or there is hatred which driving you to those conclusions. Things dont work on speculations, your posts which I a read so far, I think you are getting paid for this propaganda about Islam. Its my speculation, is it true?
Note I said I stated with facts and trace to the ultimate root causes and have arrive as a very tenable hypothesis.


I am not speculating. It is a fact there are terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims since Islam came about till the present and will be more terrible in the future. These jihadists Muslims are reading from the same Quran as all Muslims. Because the Quran contain both good and evil elements, the evil prone Muslims will be naturally inclined to the evil laden verses in the Quran.


One can easily test my hypothesis easily, i.e. get rid of the evil laden verses which are obsolete and frivolous for the modern era, then, there will be more Islam-inspired-evils and violence. Without any evil laden elements in the Quran, then there will no opportunity for any jihadist to refer to the Quran as an excuse for their violence.

Quote:
..I think you are getting paid for this propaganda about Islam. Its my speculation, is it true?
I think you are paid to proselytize and cover up the 'hatred' [since you insist on using this wrong term] of the kuffar in the Quran so that more kuffar will be killed and Islam can then dominate in the World and subjugate the kuffar.



Quote:
First there are still verses about fighting in NT and you cannot simple change word of God, It means christian missionaries made up Christianity and they are changing word of their "god" whenever they want which confirms this is man made religion. Love your enemy thing ? is this seems realistic to you ? then why the pope francis declared war on ISIS? why he is not loving his enemy in compliance with word of God?
Yes there are evil laden verses in the NT but as I had said, these verses are overridden and limited by the pacifist Maxim in the NT.
I said 'love your enemy' is the ideal overriding Maxim. Because it an ideal Maxim it is not expected to be complied in all circumstances blindly but a Christian is obliged to take note of it and strive as near as possible to the ideal Maxim in all their actions.
The Christians' actions will then be Judged by God on Judgment Day.


Islam on the other hand has a no-holds-barred channel for SOME evil prone Muslims to go all the way out in committing evils and violence upon certain conditions which vague.

Quote:
In Islam There are already rules mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah that during war you cannot kill innocent people (deliberately killing of women and children and those who are not fighting or pose no harm is Big Sin, even cutting down tree without reason is prohibited.), If enemy do not want to fight and want peace then fighting is prohibited for Muslims.
Note, I believe the Quran is the only authoritative texts of Islam as sent by Allah. The Sunnah is merely a supporting exposition, therefore has no divine authority.


As I had said many times, the Quran [representing Islam] has both good and evil laden elements. The majority [say 80%] will focus on the good elements and ignore the evil elements. However because of he very existence of evil laden elements in the Quran they are exposed to the pool of 20% [300 million] evil prone Muslims to inspire them to commit evils and violence as their duty to comply with the terms and conditions of the covenant they has made with Allah.

Quote:
Well you just need a common sense to know that the people thousands of year ago were not familiar with so much knowledge, and also if thats the case then why they do not exclude the self defense law from their constitution as you said they already know it. almost all religion allow self defense to ensure their followers that they have not committed a Sin by defending themselves.
I said it is critical the 'self-defense' elements should not be included in the core religious text of a religion. The reason is religion is leveraged on very desperate psychological at the subliminal [subconscious] levels. With such existential desperations, a religious person is likely to do what it takes to avoid the terrible desperations, i.e. angsts and anxieties. This is the reason why religions should not be mixed with politics and secular matters.


Note Buddhism, Jainism and other religions do not emphasize at all on 'self-defense' strategies. They are focus almost totally on self-development to deal with the inherent existential dilemma [the soteriological purpose of all religions]. Politics is left to the government of the day to deal with.


Buddhism started more than a thousand years before Islam but Buddhism were not concern with wars and self defense. In fact, Gautama Buddha was supposed to be a warrior prince but he left the palace and because an ascetic to search for the answer to the soteriological issues of life.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-29-2015 at 09:21 PM..
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