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Old 12-14-2015, 12:42 PM
 
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Quote:
juju33312 Wrote:
Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”
So you believe that in the battle instead of killing the enemy who want your blood, get yourself killed ? Thank God Almighty you are not Army General of any nation because you would say O my Soldiers whenever you fight your enemy please get killed and the other verse about garments of fire........... it is the punishment for the unbelievers after life and you dont believe in after life so you should not be worried about that since you dont believe in Islam and if you find yourself in that position then ask this question at that time

Quote:
juju33312 Wrote:
The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)


I already replied to this allegation so dont mislead people Is ISIS Islamic? Post#60

Your counter question at Is ISIS Islamic? Post#64
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:02 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,881 times
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Originally Posted by int007 View Post
So you believe that in the battle instead of killing the enemy who want your blood, get yourself killed ? Thank God Almighty you are not Army General of any nation because you would say O my Soldiers whenever you fight your enemy please get killed and the other verse about garments of fire........... it is the punishment for the unbelievers after life and you dont believe in after life so you should not be worried about that since you dont believe in Islam and if you find yourself in that position then ask this question at that time





I already replied to this allegation so dont mislead people Is ISIS Islamic? Post#60

Your counter question at Is ISIS Islamic? Post#64
Muhammed was the one who attacked. Muhammed was the one who initiated violence.

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them "

How is this self defense??? Muhammed is picking the time and going to find people to kill.

"and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush."

Ambush is not self-defense. 'sitting in wait' is not self defense!

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)

Not self defense.

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: If you come to a township (which has surrendered without a formal war) and stay therein, you have a share (that will be in the form of an award) in (the properties obtained from) it. If a township disobeys Allah and His Messenger (and actually fights against the Muslims) one-fifth of the booty seized therefrom is for Allah and His Apostle and the rest is for you. (Sahih Muslim 4346)

Not self defense.

Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)

Not self defense.

We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried, “Muhammad with his force,” and turned tail and fled… The apostle seized the property piece by piece… (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

Not self defense.

When the apostle raided a people he waited until the morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back; if he did not hear it he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night, and the apostle passed the night there; and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

Not self defense.

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)

The question Ali posed would have been unnecessary had the Muslims been under attack by the Khaybar or if the answer to the question were obvious.

The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

What does rape have to do with self defense?

Quran 2:191 And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

It is useless to keep lying when the evidence is right in your own books.

And the horrible descriptions of torture in the afterlife, no I do not believe in that afterlife, but Muslims do, and that sadist Allah is inciting hatred and violence. If there were no terrorist attacks and rapes and tortures by Muslims in the name of islam I wouldn't care what your sick and evil book said. But we see Islamic terrorist attacks every day. We see sick hatred and demands for human rights abuses. We see Muslims invading the west and destroying freedom and individual rights and pooping all over and rioting and raping and having sex with children. All because of that nasty Islam.
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:08 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post

I already replied to this allegation so dont mislead people Is ISIS Islamic? Post#60
Your whole reply was trying to say that the women were not mass raped in front of their husbands, but just mass raped. Do you think it is self defense to rape women? Do you think it is OK to rape women?

Here's more mass rape:

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do coitus interruptus. A soul that which Allah has destined to exist will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.” (Sahih Muslim 4345)

Safiyah was taken to Muhammad’s tent. Muhammad wanted to have sex with her. She resisted his advances. That night Abu Ayyub al-Ansari guarded the tent of Muhammad. Muhammad saw Abu Ayyub & asked him why he was there; he said: "I was afraid for you with this young lady. You killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives, I was really afraid for you on her account". (Ibn Ishaq, p. 766)

And Muhammed raped a little 9 year old child.
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma USA
1,196 posts, read 842,564 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
For those who ask, why don't we fight back against the terrorists. The fact is we do. There has been an organized group of Muslims fighting terrorism since at least 1921. This is a part of Islam the hate sites do not speak of and gets very little Media attention

That's interesting. I had no idea Dawah was such a big international movement.

There was a Dawah elder man coming through the airport where I work, and he was dressed in the full robes and long beard -- from a distance he looked like the kind of person airport patrons would freak out over. But he just went around smiling and nodding at everybody with such an open sort of innocence that people treated him just fine.

I got to talk to him for a minute, so I asked him if he was on pilgrimage.

"Dawah" he said "I am teaching peace!"

He smiled and waved to total strangers, and had a generally great time passing through a Bible Belt flyover country airport.
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Old 12-14-2015, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Somewhere flat in Mississippi
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The Middle East seemed more peaceful when it was the Ottoman Empire. Every tribal, ethnic, and religious group seemed to get on well with each other - until the Armenian genocide.
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A person with a good heart and intentions will only see good in the Qur'an. A person with an evil heart and evil intentions will only see evil in the Qur'an.

Islam will only guide to good those who desire to do good. It is the duty of those of us who found only good in the Qur'an, to point out to those who find evil, the error of their ways
I agree with the above which is obvious in general. But the above is insufficient to deal with reality.


1. As I had said, DNA wise 20% of all humans [including Muslims] are evil prone due to their lack of impulse controls.
2. Because it is DNA based it is difficult to cure these are more or less hard-wired and are the hardcore.
3. Note 20% is 300 million evil prone Muslims.


These hardcores will naturally avoid the good and incline toward the evil elements.
Because these 20% are hard-wired for evil, the advice from those who are good will often fall into deaf ears. Perhaps some will change but most will remain evil prone because they are hardwired to evil. A good example is crimes and prisons. Many prisoners were released on good behaviors in prison but they soon relapse into their natural evil tendencies and commit crimes again.


This is why psychologists will not recommend exposing violent elements [media, examples, etc.] to those who are inclined towards evil to avoid triggering their natural tendencies. Even then such cautions do not help.


The problem with Islam is there are glaring evil laden elements [>55% of verses] in the Quran and the martial ethos of Muhammad's life which is supposed to be an exemplar for all Muslims.
We know 80% of moderate Muslims will naturally use their human discretion to avoid the evil laden elements in the Quran and are not influenced by them to commit evil acts on non-Muslims.


But the reality is there exists,
1. A natural 20% of evil prone Muslims, i.e. 300 million
2. More than 55% of evil laden elements in the Quran


Because of the above reality, it is inevitable SOME of the evil prone will commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and even Muslims. This is a natural recipe that is 99.9% certain to happen.


The fact is Islam is partially evil besides the good therein.


So do you agree with the above reality & truths and the inevitable resultants?

Last edited by Continuum; 12-14-2015 at 08:32 PM.. Reason: 55% not 5%
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree with the above which is obvious in general. But the above is insufficient to deal with reality.


1. As I had said, DNA wise 20% of all humans [including Muslims] are evil prone due to their lack of impulse controls.
2. Because it is DNA based it is difficult to cure these are more or less hard-wired and are the hardcore.
3. Note 20% is 300 million evil prone Muslims.


These hardcores will naturally avoid the good and incline toward the evil elements.
Because these 20% are hard-wired for evil, the advice from those who are good will often fall into deaf ears. Perhaps some will change but most will remain evil prone because they are hardwired to evil. A good example is crimes and prisons. Many prisoners were released on good behaviors in prison but they soon relapse into their natural evil tendencies and commit crimes again.


This is why psychologists will not recommend exposing violent elements [media, examples, etc.] to those who are inclined towards evil to avoid triggering their natural tendencies. Even then such cautions do not help.


The problem with Islam is there are glaring evil laden elements [>55% of verses] in the Quran and the martial ethos of Muhammad's life which is supposed to be an exemplar for all Muslims.
We know 80% of moderate Muslims will naturally use their human discretion to avoid the evil laden elements in the Quran and are not influenced by them to commit evil acts on non-Muslims.


But the reality is there exists,
1. A natural 20% of evil prone Muslims, i.e. 300 million
2. More than 5% of evil laden elements in the Quran


Because of the above reality, it is inevitable SOME of the evil prone will commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and even Muslims. This is a natural recipe that is 99.9% certain to happen.


The fact is Islam is partially evil besides the good therein.


So do you agree with the above reality & truths and the inevitable resultants?

So do you agree with the above reality & truths and the inevitable resultants?

I find no reason to believe they are engraved in stone, unchangeable or even applicable to all people.While they can be used as explanatory tools to understand the specific actions of a specific person they are not unchangeable laws that can predict the actions of a specific individual.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
So do you agree with the above reality & truths and the inevitable resultants?

I find no reason to believe they are engraved in stone, unchangeable or even applicable to all people.While they can be used as explanatory tools to understand the specific actions of a specific person they are not unchangeable laws that can predict the actions of a specific individual.
I wish what you proposed is possible.


Unfortunately you [or any other person] as a fallible human and a slave of Allah cannot override Allah's words as stipulated in the Quran.
Allah has proclaimed in the Quran, the Quran is delivered in pristine and perfect mode via Gabriel to Muhammad.
It would be very sinful to change the words of Allah.
Therefore the perfect words of Allah is immutable [carved in stone tablets] and cannot be changed, edited nor removed.


There may be explanatory points in the Quran, but what is most critical from the Quran are the universal doctrines, principles, maxims, terms and conditions of the covenant between Allah and each Muslims.

Quote:
While they can be used as explanatory tools to understand the specific actions of a specific person they are not unchangeable laws that can predict the actions of a specific individual.
From the above, somehow you have failed to understand how the Quran should worked in principle. It is absurd to say the verses can be explanatory tools of significance without giving priority attention to its universal principles.


What is significant and critical is the Quran dictate universal doctrines, principles, maxims, terms, conditions and other elements that are applicable to ALL Muslims till eternity.
However the Quran also provide principles and maxim to cater to variations [and exceptions] within circumstances and the person. There are many such verses, e.g. to do one best in accordance to one's ability.


Obviously the doctrines, principles, maxims, terms, conditions and other elements need to be expounded by experts to others with lower and various comprehension levels. This is perhaps the purpose of the Ahadiths and other texts, but they must conform to the original principles in the Quran.


As per the Quran in context,
1. the very existence of non-Muslims in general is a potential threat to Islam - the only superior religion that must prevail over all other religions.
2. The Quran stipulate non-Muslims should be oppressed into subservience to sustain Islam's superiority.
3. The Quran also sanction as a principle [in vague verses] the killing of non-Muslims when they are a threat [hinder, corruption, mischiefs, wronged] to Islam.


Therefore when the Muslims of ISIS, other groups or as individual[s] dominate and kill non-Muslims in the cause of Allah in accordance to the Quran [as above] they are not committing any sins in the eyes of Allah. These killers are expected to be greatly rewarded by Allah for executing their obligation as per the covenant they made with Allah. This is the reality of what is actually happening in the world today.


Therefore if you are really human and humane you too have to recognize the above reality and truth. Unfortunately there is no hope the immutable evil laden verses in the Quran can be changed by any fallible slave of the all mighty Allah.
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Old 12-14-2015, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,302,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I wish what you proposed is possible.


Unfortunately you [or any other person] as a fallible human and a slave of Allah cannot override Allah's words as stipulated in the Quran.
Allah has proclaimed in the Quran, the Quran is delivered in pristine and perfect mode via Gabriel to Muhammad.
It would be very sinful to change the words of Allah.
Therefore the perfect words of Allah is immutable [carved in stone tablets] and cannot be changed, edited nor removed.


There may be explanatory points in the Quran, but what is most critical from the Quran are the universal doctrines, principles, maxims, terms and conditions of the covenant between Allah and each Muslims.

From the above, somehow you have failed to understand how the Quran should worked in principle. It is absurd to say the verses can be explanatory tools of significance without give priority attention to its universal principles.


What is significant and critical is the Quran dictate universal doctrines, principles, maxims, terms, conditions and other elements that are applicable to ALL Muslims till eternity.
However the Quran also provide principles and maxim to cater to variations [an exceptions] within circumstances and the person. There are many such verses, e.g. to do one best in accordance to one's ability.


Obviously the doctrines, principles, maxims, terms, conditions and other elements need to be expounded by expert to others with lower and various comprehension levels. This is perhaps the purpose of the Ahadiths and other texts, but they must conform to the original principles in the Quran.


As per the Quran in context,
1. the very existence of non-Muslims in general is a potential threat to Islam - the only superior religion that must prevail over all other religions.
2. The Quran stipulate non-Muslims should be oppressed into subservience to sustain Islam's superiority.
3. The Quran also sanction in vague verses the killing of non-Muslims when they are a threat [hinder, corruption, mischiefs, wronged] to Islam.


Therefore when the Muslims of ISIS, other groups or as individual[s] dominate and kill non-Muslims in the cause of Allah in accordance to the Quran [as above] they are not committing any sins in the eyes of Allah. These killers are expected to be greatly rewarded by Allah for executing their obligation as per the covenant they made with Allah. This is the reality of what is actually happening in the world today.


Therefore if you are really human and humane you too have to recognize the above reality and truth. Unfortunately there is no hope the immutable evil laden verses in the Quran can be changed by any fallible slave of the all mighty Allah.
The vast majority of Muslims do not believe the Qur'an teaches us how to perform Islam.

Yes we believe that when it is read in the original Arabic it is the exact words of God(swt).

The majority of the Surah need to be seen as to why we are to believe Allaah(swt) is the only god(swt) and only he is to be worshped. The majority of it are specific stories relating to specific events.

The basic message of the Qur'an is (as I have repeated many times) There is only one God, who has no equals, partners or progeny and only he is to be worshiped and submitted to" That is the context of the Qur'an and every Surah relates to that. The Qur'an is the reason why. The how to is a separate matter.

A person who claims the Qur'an teaches violence has probably never read the Qur'an in Arabic nor is familiar with the events that required each Surah to be reveled,
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Old 12-14-2015, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The vast majority of Muslims do not believe the Qur'an teaches us how to perform Islam.

Yes we believe that when it is read in the original Arabic it is the exact words of God(swt).

The majority of the Surah need to be seen as to why we are to believe Allaah(swt) is the only god(swt) and only he is to be worshped. The majority of it are specific stories relating to specific events.

The basic message of the Qur'an is (as I have repeated many times) There is only one God, who has no equals, partners or progeny and only he is to be worshiped and submitted to" That is the context of the Qur'an and every Surah relates to that. The Qur'an is the reason why. The how to is a separate matter.

A person who claims the Qur'an teaches violence has probably never read the Qur'an in Arabic nor is familiar with the events that required each Surah to be reveled,
You think the Muslims of ISIS do not read the Quran in Arabic?


Al-Badhdadi of ISIS has a PhD is religious study. I don't think he did it in the English, French or Germans.


It is the leaders of ISIS and the likes who study the Quran in Arabic or are influenced by Arabic scholars who subsequently influence their foot soldiers who may have read the Quran in their local languages.


The fact that ISIS is led by those reading the Quran in Arabic into one of the most terrible evils and violence prove your thesis wrong.
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