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Old 12-13-2015, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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For those who ask, why don't we fight back against the terrorists. The fact is we do. There has been an organized group of Muslims fighting terrorism since at least 1921. This is a part of Islam the hate sites do not speak of and gets very little Media attention

Quote:
(Newser) – In an apartment in Amman, Jordan, three men sit with a man named Mohammed. Their goal: convince the 20-year-old Syrian not to join an armed jihadist group. Later, after Mohammed agreed to hold off for at least 40 days, one of the men declared victory. "Once they open their hearts and join us," he says, "they never go back." The men are adherents to Dawah, an Islamic movement that may have up to 50 million followers worldwide—and a reported 50,000 in the US, the Christian Science Monitor reports. Rooted in a 1921 Islamic revival in northwest India, Dawah calls on followers to convey the virtue of "loving they fellow Muslims and non-Muslims.

Islamic Dawah Movement Claims Some 50 Million Followers
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Old 12-13-2015, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,597,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
For those who ask, why don't we fight back against the terrorists. The fact is we do. There has been an organized group of Muslims fighting terrorism since at least 1921. This is a part of Islam the hate sites do not speak of and gets very little Media attention
I have always counter argue your points that you are not deliberating the point in the context of reality.


1. The reality is there are 1.5 billion Muslims
2. 20% of Muslims [also ALL humans] are evil prone, i.e. 300 million.
3. Thus 80% are reasonable Muslims, i.e. 1,200 million.
4. More than 55% of the verses in the Quran contain evil laden elements of various degrees.


The above is the reality.
As such no matter how much the 1,200 million moderate Muslims condemn and promote non-violence, they are only preventing those amongst the moderates from turning toward fundamentalism. In addition the Ahamadiyya and most Sufi traditions are basically pacifist in their core mission, but these Muslims are condemned by most Muslims and slaughtered by the evil prone.

Even if Media attention were directed to the pacifist Muslims, it would not be effective.

Therefore your point above will not make any difference to the 300 million evil prone Muslims [of various degrees] and especially to the hard core truer Muslims who are influenced and inspired by the evil laden elements which is inherent in the Quran and from Allah. This is the unavoidable reality that cannot disappear in the present circumstances because the Quran and Islam containsboth partly good and partly evil elements that was introduced by Muhammad in reality. [why Muhammad? because there is no God in reality].


You MUST deal with reality.
It is unfortunate you prefer to deal with only partial reality and its truths.
Any way, I know and the fact is you are not likely to switch to facing reality due to your necessary strong attachment to your faith [rely on unreality].
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Old 12-13-2015, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,337,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have always counter argue your points that you are not deliberating the point in the context of reality.


1. The reality is there are 1.5 billion Muslims
2. 20% of Muslims [also ALL humans] are evil prone, i.e. 300 million.
3. Thus 80% are reasonable Muslims, i.e. 1,200 million.
4. More than 55% of the verses in the Quran contain evil laden elements of various degrees.


The above is the reality.
As such no matter how much the 1,200 million moderate Muslims condemn and promote non-violence, they are only preventing those amongst the moderates from turning towards fundamentalism. In addition the Ahamadiyya and most Sufi traditions are basically pacifist in their core mission, but these Muslims are condemned by most Muslims and slaughtered by the evil prone.

Even if Media attention were directed to the pacifist Muslims, it would not be effective.

Therefore your point above will not make any difference to the 300 million evil prone Muslims [of various degrees] and especially to the hard core truer Muslims who are influenced and inspired by the evil laden elements which is inherent in the Quran and from Allah. This is the unavoidable reality that cannot disappear in the present circumstances because the Quran and Islam containsboth partly good and partly evil elements that was introduced by Muhammad in reality. [why Muhammad? because there is no God in reality].


You MUST deal with reality.
It is unfortunate you prefer to deal with only partial reality and its truths.
Any way, I know and the fact is you are not likely to switch to facing reality due to your necessary strong attachment to your faith [rely on unreality].
The point of this post is there are movements to control if not eliminate those that would commit wanton acts of violence.

Like you have noted The Ahmadiyyat and Sufi have prety much done so withing their groups and both use essentially the same scriptures as used by fundementalis Sunni.

Some Sufi are Sunni.

Sufism is a methodology rater than a sect although it is possible to be Sufi and not be Muslim, there are even Atheist Sufi groups

https://atheistsufis.wordpress.com/about/

There are Sufi that consider them self to not be Sunni

Sufism, Sufis, and Sufi Orders: Sufism's Many Paths

There are Sufi that consider themselves to be Sunni

Quote:
Actually the famous Sufi groups and organizations are Sunni not Shia. There is a sensitivity and negative attitude towards them among other Sunni Muslims like some followers of Salafi movement for various reasons that I will not go into in this answer, still Sufi orders have developed mainly among Sunni not Shia.

shiism - Is sufism primarily associated with Shia or Sunni Islam? - Islam Stack Exchange
The interesting thing to note is that among the Ahmadiyyat and Sufi there is no indication of mass violence or terrorism and they read the very same Qur'an the Terrorists read.


But again the purpose of this thread is to show there are anti-Terroism movements in Islam

Some others:

Muslims against terrorism and extremism | Free Muslims Coalition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_M...inst_Terrorism

Muslims Against Terrorism (MAT)

https://www.quora.com/Are-there-Musl...d-to-terrorism
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Old 12-13-2015, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,597,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The point of this post is there are movements to control if not eliminate those that would commit wanton acts of violence.


But again the purpose of this thread is to show there are anti-Terroism movements in Islam
I am aware of your intention but what I did is to point out this do not address the reality of the main issue, i.e. Islamic violence.


In addition, I am highlighting the principles of the Normal Distribution, i.e. for every % evil there will be a corresponding % of good. But in this case the good [80%] cannot overcome the evil who are also reading the same book and words of Allah as true.


Such Islamic movements [from the 80%] has always been there and it is not growing. Even if it grows to its full potential, it will not overcome the evil prone Muslims [potential pool of 300 million] who will comply with the evil laden verses with sincerity as obedient slaves of Allah.
Since there is no central authority in Islam which fallible human being can say they are wrong as Muslims.
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Old 12-13-2015, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,337,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am aware of your intention but what I did is to point out this do not address the reality of the main issue, i.e. Islamic violence.


In addition, I am highlighting the principles of the Normal Distribution, i.e. for every % evil there will be a corresponding % of good. But in this case the good [80%] cannot overcome the evil who are also reading the same book and words of Allah as true.


Such Islamic movements [from the 80%] has always been there and it is not growing. Even if it grows to its full potential, it will not overcome the evil prone Muslims [potential pool of 300 million] who will comply with the evil laden verses with sincerity as obedient slaves of Allah.
Since there is no central authority in Islam which fallible human being can say they are wrong as Muslims.

So you are saying it is pointless for us to even bother trying to control the terrorists.

Fire Departments will never be able to stop fires from occurring, should we stop having fire departments?
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Old 12-13-2015, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,597,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
So you are saying it is pointless for us to even bother trying to control the terrorists.

Fire Departments will never be able to stop fires from occurring, should we stop having fire departments?
That is not my point.


Wherever terrorists emerged, then it is obligatory to deal and eliminate them otherwise that specific problem will get worse, e.g. ISIS and all the present terrorist groups.
BUT this problem-solving approach is merely fire-fighting [hope you know what this metaphorical phrase means]. So you still need fire departments.


However, fire-fighting without addressing the ultimate root cause in reality is a very ineffective approach.
If we do not deal with the ultimate root cause, the problem of Islamic violence will be keeping emerging even after we have got rid of ISIS, Boko Haram, Al-Qaeda and the likes.


The moderates can keep going with their dakwah to prevent other moderates and goody-two-shoes from turning fundamentalists into the arms of the terrorists.


To resolve the real Islamic violence we have to deal with the root causes, i.e.


1. The reality is there are 1.5 billion Muslims
2. 20% of Muslims [also ALL humans] are evil prone, i.e. 300 million.
3. Thus 80% are reasonable Muslims, i.e. 1,200 million.
4. More than 55% of the verses in the Quran contain evil laden elements of various degrees.


So which root cause, i.e. point 2 or point 4 should be addressed?
Because it is inherent in the human DNA, it not easy to reprogram point 2, i.e. the 20% of natural evil prone humans within humanity. This is an almost fixed variable we have to accept for a long time.



Getting rid of Point 4 in the Quran would solve the problem of Islamic violence. When there are no violent elements [superfluous anyway] in the Quran there will be no more opportunity for the 20% of evil prone Muslim to feed and be inspired by any evil laden verses.
But there is a catch-22 as the Quran is supposed to be the perfect words of Allah and thus is immutable and cannot be edited, changed nor removed. A Quran with 55% of such elements missing would not be the perfect Quran and a core texts of Islam.


So as long as Islam exists with its inevitable Quran of 6,236 verses delivered to Muhammad via Gabriel from Allah starting in 610AD, humanity will have to face the terrible evils and violence from SOME evil prone Muslims motivated by the evil laden elements in the Quran. Note nuclear materials and WMDs are easier to access and getting cheaper.


However humanity can do something if Muslims are to face reality and less on faith.
In reality there is no God and thus the Quran was man made. From this perspective then there is room to remove all the superfluous human introduced evil laden elements from the Quran which should focus on the eschatological and soteriological purposes as what a religion should aim for.
At present this alternative would be practically impossible due the psychological state of the majority of Muslims but I foresee this is possible in the future [say 50 years from now].

Last edited by Continuum; 12-13-2015 at 10:25 PM..
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Old 12-13-2015, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,337,178 times
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A person with a good heart and intentions will only see good in the Qur'an. A person with an evil heart and evil intentions will only see evil in the Qur'an.

Islam will only guide to good those who desire to do good. It is the duty of those of us who found only good in the Qur'an, to point out to those who find evil, the error of their ways
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:21 AM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,923,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A person with a good heart and intentions will only see good in the Qur'an. A person with an evil heart and evil intentions will only see evil in the Qur'an.

Islam will only guide to good those who desire to do good. It is the duty of those of us who found only good in the Qur'an, to point out to those who find evil, the error of their ways
Woodrow, and this the point I tried to make in one of these threads on this forum. People are who they are DESPITE their religions. Like I found out, after I left Christianity, I would have highly likely been the very same way I am today with or without my experience in the religion. My path in it did not make me any better or worse. The thing that it did, however, is gave me the impression that my good was NOT good enough and it could only be endorsed IF I took part in the religion. In other religions, Islam, for example, it is not good enough to just have a "good heart and good intentions." It has to be filtered and qualified through other actions, such as, first believing in Allah and following prescribed rules and commandments, right? As in Christianity's thought process then, you can be a good person, have a good heart and good intentions, but there is a qualifying "BUT," right?
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:35 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A person with a good heart and intentions will only see good in the Qur'an. A person with an evil heart and evil intentions will only see evil in the Qur'an.

Islam will only guide to good those who desire to do good. It is the duty of those of us who found only good in the Qur'an, to point out to those who find evil, the error of their ways
Absolutely spot on brother,

In my opinion the ISIS thing is Political then Religious, first Bush Administration Bombed Iraq for having Weapon of Mass Destruction and made everyone believed that they actually own WMD and killed thousands of innocent people over a false accusation. These killings were later exploited by the ISIS, if one analyze the root cause of ISIS then it is clear that the creator of ISIS is Bush. I m no fan of Saddam but Iraq was actually safe when Saddam was under control.
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Old 12-14-2015, 08:55 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A person with a good heart and intentions will only see good in the Qur'an. A person with an evil heart and evil intentions will only see evil in the Qur'an.

Islam will only guide to good those who desire to do good. It is the duty of those of us who found only good in the Qur'an, to point out to those who find evil, the error of their ways
You think it is good that Allah is horribly torturing billions of souls for eternity.

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

You think rape is OK if Allah says so:

The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives.
Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

How can anyone see good in this? And there is so much more. It is there for all to read. The terrorism and hate is there for all to see.

It is the people who are against slavery, rape, sex with children, terrorism, genocide, selling women, etc who are against Islam.
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