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Old 12-22-2015, 12:39 PM
 
88 posts, read 35,172 times
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Quote:
I have also said it is not an instruction manual that teaches us how to perform Islam. I did say we do not view it as a book of commands. I did not say it does not contain any commands
.

I agree with you brother for example Allah says in the Quran perform Salah but to know how to perform Salah you have to learn from the Hadiths and teaching of Muhammad(PBUH) because Quran is like a telegraphic message and guidance to the mankind and when someone enters in Islam then for the details and how to perform and live your life according to Islam, you have to learn from Sahih Hadiths
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Old 12-22-2015, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,594,359 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
You are getting more n more predictable with your ISIS card If anyone of those killed any innocent people Allah says his punishment is death. It is also fall in to Haqooq al Ibad which means Human rights and on the day of Judgement, violation of Human rights will not be forgiven unless the victim forgives and Allah will give to the victim good deeds from the account of culprit, furthermore the killer will be punished in this world according to the Law of Allah which is death.
Actually predictability is a credible quality of objectivity and it is critical in Science together with the elements of repeatability and testability.
The reservation is to ensure the variables involved are not negative to humanity.


I mentioned and highlighted ISIS more often because they are a critical point and commit the worst of evil that is voiced by almost every one in the world. It is human nature to focus on the very evil in their presence. This is why 'bad news is always good news' to the news organizations.


In reality, my concern is on the full range of evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are inspired and motivated by the evil laden elements within the Quran.
I would rate the worst acts of ISIS as 90-100/100 of evilness., e.g. genocides, mass rapes, beheadings, killing of innocents anywhere they find them and the likes.
However SOME Muslims also commit evils down the lower range of say 1-10/100 and those in the mid-range of evilness, e.g. oppression of minority's rights, riot due to cartoons, hindering of education, minor evils and violence.


So my mentioned of ISIS and their likes is merely a tip of the iceberg of evil committed by SOME [not all] Muslims.


Btw, in the Quran Allah do not punish kuffar by death. Allah would prefer to resurrect the kuffar to keep them alive so that they will suffer eternal torture and sufferings in Hell. I presume you forgot this very important sadistic punishment by Allah which is stated all over the Quran.


There is no specific verse in the Quran that indicate [in an unqualified sense] the killing of the innocent non-Muslims is a serious sin.



Quote:
I think you are mistaken that only non-Muslims will be in the hell fire which is a wrong perception. there will be Muslims as well who will be burned in Hell Fire, now what you think ? why those muslims be in hell fire without committing Shirk ? because of those sins and one of them will be killing innocent people.
If you want to go into details, the process is this.


1. All humans will face death.
2. Then they are put to tarry in the hereafter.
3. Then they are plucked and marched in queues into the courtyard of temporary hell. The non-Muslims queues will be feeling the heat while the Muslims are in the cooler lines.
4. Both Muslims and non-Muslims will be judged based on the Sijjirin or Illiyin.
5. Depending on the quantum of sins Muslims will be punished in hell accordingly then redirected to paradise or sent to hell if they commit unpardonable sins.
6. Non-Muslims [infidels, kuffar, kafara] will be sent direct to Hell to face the worst tortures eternally.


Note 7:32 mentioned murder [manslaughter] of innocent people. Yes those who murder innocent people for non-Islamic reasons, e.g. crime of passion, or simply for psychopathic reasons, greed, jealousies, anger, hate, etc. then they will face serious punishment by Allah on Judgment Day.


However in the case of the Muslims of ISIS and others of the likes, they are killing the kuffar [infidels] in the cause and way of Allah in compliance with the dictates of the Quran [words of God].
These Muslims are SO fearful to Allah and ending in HELL that they would not dare to commit any acts that is against Allah's will. Thus whatever they do is to serve & please Allah and they will comply exactly what is expected on them in accordance to the terms and conditions within the covenant they 'sign' with Allah.


Btw, do you understand the concept of 'covenant' with Allah in the context of the Quran?
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Old 12-22-2015, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,594,359 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You are misinterpreting what I meant.
No where did I ever say: There are no commands in the Qur'an. Several times I did say there are very few commands. I have also said it is not an instruction manual that teaches us how to perform Islam. I did say we do not view it as a book of commands. I did not say it does not contain any commands.
OK noted your point.
However your phrase 'there are very few commands' is obviously wrong.
What do you meant by 'very few', it is less than 5 or 10? I am sure there are many more than 10.

It is NOT a question of viewing it as a book of commands, as if all or most of the verses are commands. If there are commands [literally] then a Muslim must comply with whatever is the command.


The primary element of Islam and Muslim is not focus on commands [this compliance is secondary]. The primary focus of a Muslim is the covenant [agreement] that a Muslim has made with Allah who on his side promised resurrection to eternal life in paradise, and the Muslim's obligation is to serve Allah as per the full terms and conditions in the Quran [MGA-610] alone and no where else.

The Hadiths can guide as to various rituals and explanation of doctrines but they cannot carry any divine authority as translated into Laws as what the Shariah people are trying to do.
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Old 12-23-2015, 02:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,326,099 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
OK noted your point.
However your phrase 'there are very few commands' is obviously wrong.
What do you meant by 'very few', it is less than 5 or 10? I am sure there are many more than 10.

It is NOT a question of viewing it as a book of commands, as if all or most of the verses are commands. If there are commands [literally] then a Muslim must comply with whatever is the command.


The primary element of Islam and Muslim is not focus on commands [this compliance is secondary]. The primary focus of a Muslim is the covenant [agreement] that a Muslim has made with Allah who on his side promised resurrection to eternal life in paradise, and the Muslim's obligation is to serve Allah as per the full terms and conditions in the Quran [MGA-610] alone and no where else.

The Hadiths can guide as to various rituals and explanation of doctrines but they cannot carry any divine authority as translated into Laws as what the Shariah people are trying to do.
While everything is the Qur'an is repeated at least 3 times each would be a single revelation. The Qyr'an was revealed to several different types of audiences.

1. To the uniformed, those with no knowledge of Allaah(swt)

2. To the people of Book, those who have knowledge of Allaah(swt), the Jews, Sabeens and Christians,

3. To those who had accepted Islam

4. To the hypocrites, those who had claimed to be Muslim, but where not.

5. To the Apostates, those Muslims who had left Islam

The wordings to each differed in relation to what they already knew.

But the point beings there are very few specific commands.applicable to all people, in the Qur'an. The only ones I can find are

1.Prohibition of intoxicants
2. Prohibition of some foods
3. Limitation of wives a person can have
4. Prohibition of Aggression
5. a Command to be moderate in all matters
6. Command to worship only Allaah(swt)
7. Command to strive in the cause of Allaah(swt)--This is not a command to wage physical war against non-Muslims
8.Restriction as to whom sexual relationships are permitted
9. Obedience to the past scriptures -Torah, Psalms, Gospel of Jesus(a.s)
10. Prohibition of Murder
11. Obedience to one's parents
12. There is to be no compulsion in religion--Religion has to be through free will and not forced upon anyone

Those are the only commands I can find. While each is repeated numerous times in various contexts they are still just 12 commands. Even those 11 are not very specific in terms of command but worded as guidence on how to live a better life.
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Old 12-23-2015, 09:02 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,172 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Continuum Wrote:
Actually predictability is a credible quality of objectivity and it is critical in Science together with the elements of repeatability and testability.
The reservation is to ensure the variables involved are not negative to humanity.
Predictability in debate or discussion is not a strong point at all and may be in Science but unfortunately we are not discussing Science here. You are lost in to the orbit so come back to earth.

Quote:
I mentioned and highlighted ISIS more often because they are a critical point and commit the worst of evil that is voiced by almost every one in the world. It is human nature to focus on the very evil in their presence. This is why 'bad news is always good news' to the news organizations.
Yeah I can sense that you are a News guy so keep getting the "Ultimate Truth" from Fox News etc. and believe in it religiously. Before focusing on ISIS, I think you should first take on the people who created ISIS in the name of saving the world from Saddam.

Quote:
In reality, my concern is on the full range of evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are inspired and motivated by the evil laden elements within the Quran.
I would rate the worst acts of ISIS as 90-100/100 of evilness., e.g. genocides, mass rapes, beheadings, killing of innocents anywhere they find them and the likes.
However SOME Muslims also commit evils down the lower range of say 1-10/100 and those in the mid-range of evilness, e.g. oppression of minority's rights, riot due to cartoons, hindering of education, minor evils and violence.
In reality there is no violence in the Quran but you are eager to to associate violence with Islam which is understandable due to your hatred against Islam and Allah prescribed Fight only in Self defense and justly. if there where such violence as you imagining then your western liberal and educated people would have been never converted to Islam with significant numbers and Islam could never be fastest growing religion in the west. People like you, are minority and your rating means nothing so you cannot stop Islam from spreading all over the world. according to your rating Buddhism is most peaceful religion, one may ask then why people are not converting to Buddhism in large numbers in comparison with Islam or you think west is getting evil ? You should ask woodrow (may Allah protect him and his family) did he accepted Islam without reading the Quran or you think he is also Evil. If ISIS is really committing such acts as you mentioned then they are far away from Islam, your understanding of Quran is based on Hatred so there is no credibility in it. If the ISIS were on the right track then they would have been majority not minority.

Quote:
If you want to go into details, the process is this.

1. All humans will face death.
2. Then they are put to tarry in the hereafter.
3. Then they are plucked and marched in queues into the courtyard of temporary hell. The non-Muslims queues will be feeling the heat while the Muslims are in the cooler lines.
4. Both Muslims and non-Muslims will be judged based on the Sijjirin or Illiyin.
5. Depending on the quantum of sins Muslims will be punished in hell accordingly then redirected to paradise or sent to hell if they commit unpardonable sins.
6. Non-Muslims [infidels, kuffar, kafara] will be sent direct to Hell to face the worst tortures eternally.
Whats your point? or you think Kuffaar should not be punished in Hell fire for not believing in Allah(swt) ? or you think that you should be spared from Hell fire despite doing all this propaganda ?

Quote:
Note 7:32 mentioned murder [manslaughter] of innocent people. Yes those who murder innocent people for non-Islamic reasons, e.g. crime of passion, or simply for psychopathic reasons, greed, jealousies, anger, hate, etc. then they will face serious punishment by Allah on Judgment Day.

Quran 7:32 Say, (0 Muhammad): 'Who has forbidden the adornment which Allah has brought forth for His creatures or the good things from among the means of sustenance?' Say: 'These are for the enjoyment of the believers in this world, and shall be exclusively theirs on the Day of Resurrection.' Thus do We clearly expound Our revelations for those who have knowledge.

Where is Murder and manslaughter of innocent people ? at-least be fair.

Quote:
However in the case of the Muslims of ISIS and others of the likes, they are killing the kuffar [infidels] in the cause and way of Allah in compliance with the dictates of the Quran [words of God].
These Muslims are SO fearful to Allah and ending in HELL that they would not dare to commit any acts that is against Allah's will. Thus whatever they do is to serve & please Allah and they will comply exactly what is expected on them in accordance to the terms and conditions within the covenant they 'sign' with Allah.

Btw, do you understand the concept of 'covenant' with Allah in the context of the Quran?
Yes we will not go against Allah's will, i.e We will not kill innocent people, will not commit adultery, will not have alcohol, pork and we will not bow down to anyone but Allah.

Quran has no verse which says killing innocent persons is allowed so it doesnt matter what you say because after all you are minority which hate Islam for everything. You will only know Islam is truth of false when you die.
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Old 12-23-2015, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,594,359 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While everything is the Qur'an is repeated at least 3 times each would be a single revelation. The Qyr'an was revealed to several different types of audiences.

1. To the uniformed, those with no knowledge of Allaah(swt)

2. To the people of Book, those who have knowledge of Allaah(swt), the Jews, Sabeens and Christians,

3. To those who had accepted Islam

4. To the hypocrites, those who had claimed to be Muslim, but where not.

5. To the Apostates, those Muslims who had left Islam

The wordings to each differed in relation to what they already knew.

But the point beings there are very few specific commands.applicable to all people, in the Qur'an. The only ones I can find are

1.Prohibition of intoxicants
2. Prohibition of some foods
3. Limitation of wives a person can have
4. Prohibition of Aggression
5. a Command to be moderate in all matters
6. Command to worship only Allaah(swt)
7. Command to strive in the cause of Allaah(swt)--This is not a command to wage physical war against non-Muslims
8.Restriction as to whom sexual relationships are permitted
9. Obedience to the past scriptures -Torah, Psalms, Gospel of Jesus(a.s)
10. Prohibition of Murder
11. Obedience to one's parents
12. There is to be no compulsion in religion--Religion has to be through free will and not forced upon anyone

Those are the only commands I can find. While each is repeated numerous times in various contexts they are still just 12 commands. Even those 11 are not very specific in terms of command but worded as guidence on how to live a better life.
What you have done, i.e. lumped all verses related to command in their categories, is deceptive and attempting to deflect away from the topic on hand.


If you take a level higher, then the whole Quran in general is a command onto Muhammad to recite and communicate to Muslims as a reminder to be obeyed.


The proper approach would be as follows;
First we must go through each of the 6,236 verses in the Quran and assess whether they contain any elements of that is termed a command. Then we count and compute what is the % of command in relation to the 6,236 verses.


From the total of verses, yes, we can allot them into the various categories. This is no issue.


There is a difference in impact on the reader between a command that is mentioned once and mentioned many times in different context.
Therefore you cannot issue there are only 12 categories [I believe there are more] and not taking into account the other perspectives.


My point;
We need to present the following true perspectives of commands as in the Quran, i.e.


1. Generally, the whole of the Quran is a command from Allah to Muhammad and to Muslims as a reminder to be obeyed.
2. There are x number of verses related to commands. [to be analyzed].
3. The total number of command related verses can be analyzed into various categories.


The problem is you dogmatically and insist there is only your perspective [bias truth], i.e. few commands or appx. 12 categories and types of commands.
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Old 12-23-2015, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,594,359 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
Predictability in debate or discussion is not a strong point at all and may be in Science but unfortunately we are not discussing Science here. You are lost in to the orbit so come back to earth.
Somehow the above views reflect very low intellectual competency.
I only mentioned Science as an example.
What is credible to any truth [or proposition] is it must first be objective like Science.
If it cannot meet the standard of Science, then it must be subjected to other critical epistemological justifications.
There is no way for any one to simply accept yours and subjective opinions of others in general.

Quote:
Yeah I can sense that you are a News guy so keep getting the "Ultimate Truth" from Fox News etc. and believe in it religiously. Before focusing on ISIS, I think you should first take on the people who created ISIS in the name of saving the world from Saddam.
Again you are insulting your own intelligence.
I quoted the principle and truth that 'bad news is good news' because in general it is human nature [even yourself] to focus of the bad news [whatever the context]. This is basic and it happened every where. The News organization like most advertising firms are exploiting natural human nature subject to their own credibility check.
The above is the principle and theory and it does not mean I will believe whatever is reported in any News.
As I had mentioned many times, the US and its allies [including Middle East Nations] has weakened the political circumstance which enable the malignant potential of Islam [in part] which motivated SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.


Humanity must deal with the respective root causes, i.e. deal with the political excess of the US or any other Nations plus recognize the evil malignant elements that are inherent within Islam [in part].


Quote:
In reality there is no violence in the Quran but you are eager to to associate violence with Islam which is understandable due to your hatred against Islam and Allah prescribed Fight only in Self defense and justly. if there where such violence as you imagining then your western liberal and educated people would have been never converted to Islam with significant numbers and Islam could never be fastest growing religion in the west. People like you, are minority and your rating means nothing so you cannot stop Islam from spreading all over the world. according to your rating Buddhism is most peaceful religion, one may ask then why people are not converting to Buddhism in large numbers in comparison with Islam or you think west is getting evil ? You should ask woodrow (may Allah protect him and his family) did he accepted Islam without reading the Quran or you think he is also Evil. If ISIS is really committing such acts as you mentioned then they are far away from Islam, your understanding of Quran is based on Hatred so there is no credibility in it. If the ISIS were on the right track then they would have been majority not minority.
Again you are insulting your own intelligence on this.
I understand as a believer you MUST and HAVE TO believe blindly and ignore reality, due to a psychological and emotional weakness, otherwise your hope of going to heaven to avoid eternal death and Hell will be shattered.


It is a fact [I have done a detailed analysis], more than 55% of the 6,236 verses contain evil laden elements [note: of various degrees] that are directed negatively and with contempt against the kuffar [infidels and non-Muslims].


The majority of humans are inclined towards the Abrahamic religions [esp. Christianity and Islam] because the present psychological state [very insecure and shaky] is more attuned to their doctrines. All Christians and Muslims has to do is merely believe and viola they are saved and secured psychologically and emotionally with an immediate relief of ease and feeling save. But that is the ceiling [maximun] limit and no room for advancement. Analogically to academic, the maximum standard achievable is equivalent to that for a 12 years old school grade.


The potential of Buddhism and other Eastern religions has the potential up to PhD standards but the majority of humans has not evolved high enough to absorb its higher teachings and practices yet.
However the average humans are continuously evolving spiritually and there will come a point in time where the majority will naturally abandon the Abrahamic religions and opt for the more advance graduate to post-grads [Masters and PhD] standards of spirituality.
It is inevitable, it is just a matter of time like what is happening to the adoption of new technology and knowledge all over the world. Now even the tribal & primitive people in the middle of the Amazon and other jungles are using mobile phones and TV satellites dishes.


We can objectively assess the performance of the Muslims of ISIS in terms of the 'Muslim-ness' by using the 6,236 verses as a CHECKLIST to be ticked where they comply with each verses. Thus one tick if they comply with the verse. Roughly, I assess the Muslims of ISIS and other jihadists are more likely to have more verses ticked than you or other moderates.

Quote:
Whats your point? or you think Kuffaar should not be punished in Hell fire for not believing in Allah(swt) ? or you think that you should be spared from Hell fire despite doing all this propaganda?
My point is,
Just because I do not believe in Islam as I find it partly obnoxious [that is a fact] and not compatible with my psychological and emotional state, I am labeled a kuffar to be condemned in the worst manner in the Quran merely to satisfy the existential lust for security to console Muslims.


More than 55% of the 6,236 verses are directed with contempt [hatred if you insist] of various degrees against the infidels and non-Muslim.
With so much contempt and disgusts against non-Muslim, the Quran is in fact a real book of 'hatred' [if you insist on this term].
Therefore it is very ironic that Muslims are accusing non-Muslims of 'hatred' against them when Islam [in part] is the real culprit who started the 'hatred' against non-Muslims and contribute real terrible evils and violence [by SOME Muslims] on non-Muslims.


If Islam is a religion of an average standard, it should not have included verses to condemn non-believers [in hell or wherever] like what Buddhism, Jainism [and other more superior religions] did.
You understand the phrase, 'blowing the candles of others to shine one's own.' This is very immature due to psychological insecurity and low self esteem. Worst that culminated in inspiring and motivating real terrible evils and violence by SOME Muslims.


A good [normal] religion is one that can stand on its own principles and practices to support itself as morally good and of high standard. There is no need to condemn others and put them down so that they can feel superior.
If you note Zakir Naik, others and sites that has a comparative religion section, all they did is condemning [based on ignorance] other religions and putting them down so as to make Islam looks superior. This is very childish and is based on low self-esteem and insecurities.



Quote:
Quran has no verse which says killing innocent persons is allowed so it doesnt matter what you say because after all you are minority which hate Islam for everything. You will only know Islam is truth of false when you die.
Again the above are very cheap statement of very low intellectual capability.
You are merely hiding behind what is impossible, i.e. what is beyond death.
Note it is the inherent 'hatred' of Islam [partly] that inspire real evils and violence by SOME Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims [the majority].
In view of such terrible evils and violence it is only natural that the majority want to find the root causes of why SOME Muslims commit terrible evils and violence.


I have analyzed and trace the ultimate root causes of the issue of evils and violence by Islamists and the result is Islam [partly] must take the blame for the prevalence of evil laden elements in the Quran and the martial ethos of Muhammad.
It is very ironic you are accusing others of 'hatred' [if you insist on this term] when it is your Islam [in part] that is the one which responsible for the real 'hatred' of non-Muslims that culminated in SOME Muslims committing real terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims.


I am approaching the issue of Islamic-based evils and violence on a very objective approach as I understand to be emotional and psychological about it will only back fire on me. However I can understand SOME non-Muslims will definitely counter 'hate' with 'hate' which is very natural to the ones who are ignorant of the psychological basis underlying the 'hatred.'

Last edited by Continuum; 12-23-2015 at 09:12 PM..
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