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Old 12-24-2015, 07:30 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have read the whole verse and it do not make sense.
Note I mentioned there is a big distance between Paradise and Earth.
Satan was banished to far away Earth so he cannot whisper to Adam & Eve who were still in heaven.


My point;
The issue is not very critical but
Since the Quran is claimed as perfect and error free from an all powerful God,
the above doubts prove that the Quran is not error free and perfect.


The Quran is supposed to be easy to understand as claimed by Allah.
The way one has to perform mental gymnastic to understand the statements prove otherwise.


If Allah is all powerful and Omniscient, Allah should have constructed the verses to make it very simple to understand without doubts and ambiguity. In this case I [as fallible human] could do better.
The message of the Qur'an is very simple. The Message of the Qur'an is "There is only one God(swt) he has no equals, partners nor progeny and only he is to be worshiped"

That is the Qur'an. That is the only message we are obligated to know about the Qur'an.

The Entire Qur'an is contained in 3 short Surat, if one understands them, they understand the message of the Qur'an.

Everything else in the Qur'an gives the reasons why. Not all of the Qur'an is understandable to all people, not all of it is intended to be. But the message of the Qur'an is very simple and easy to understand.

While Muslims have a desire and strong encouragement to read the Qur'an there is no obligation to do so. It is not a command to do so. But there is an obligation to listen to recitations of the Qur'an. As recitations of the Qur'an are in our 5 obligatory prayers, whcih can only be said in Arabic. Many Muslims will never read the Qur'an as no translation is the Qur'an. Only the original Arabic is the Qur'an. Translations at best are approximations. Yes, the translations do pose difficulties to understand and do not contain the tonal inflictions that denote levels of importance and obligation.

Yes the Qur'an does simply and perfectly conveys it's Message which is: "There is only one God(swt) he has no equals, partners nor progeny and only he is to be worshiped"
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Old 12-24-2015, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,592,701 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The message of the Qur'an is very simple. The Message of the Qur'an is "There is only one God(swt) he has no equals, partners nor progeny and only he is to be worshiped"

That is the Qur'an. That is the only message we are obligated to know about the Qur'an.

The Entire Qur'an is contained in 3 short Surat, if one understands them, they understand the message of the Qur'an.

Everything else in the Qur'an gives the reasons why. Not all of the Qur'an is understandable to all people, not all of it is intended to be. But the message of the Qur'an is very simple and easy to understand.

While Muslims have a desire and strong encouragement to read the Qur'an there is no obligation to do so. It is not a command to do so. But there is an obligation to listen to recitations of the Qur'an. As recitations of the Qur'an are in our 5 obligatory prayers, whcih can only be said in Arabic. Many Muslims will never read the Qur'an as no translation is the Qur'an. Only the original Arabic is the Qur'an. Translations at best are approximations. Yes, the translations do pose difficulties to understand and do not contain the tonal inflictions that denote levels of importance and obligation.

Yes the Qur'an does simply and perfectly conveys it's Message which is: "There is only one God(swt) he has no equals, partners nor progeny and only he is to be worshiped"
Note my complain is since Allah is all powerful and all knowing, Allah could have easily make the point precise and fool proof so there is no room for ambiguity and misinterpretation.


Why we end with such vague, non-sequitor, ambiguous and other errors in the Quran is because the Quran was authored by a person or a group of person and not a supposed all powerful God [which do not exist anyway].


Why Muslims will defend and denial whatever obvious errors that is pointed out in the Quran is due to their self-deception to protect their psychological sanity in relation to the existential angst and anxieties.


If you read the book below 'Vital Lies, Simple Truths' it will explain clearly the machinery in your mind why religious believers are self-deceiving and denying the errors in their religious texts.


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Old 12-25-2015, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,320,105 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note my complain is since Allah is all powerful and all knowing, Allah could have easily make the point precise and fool proof so there is no room for ambiguity and misinterpretation.


Why we end with such vague, non-sequitor, ambiguous and other errors in the Quran is because the Quran was authored by a person or a group of person and not a supposed all powerful God [which do not exist anyway].


Why Muslims will defend and denial whatever obvious errors that is pointed out in the Quran is due to their self-deception to protect their psychological sanity in relation to the existential angst and anxieties.


If you read the book below 'Vital Lies, Simple Truths' it will explain clearly the machinery in your mind why religious believers are self-deceiving and denying the errors in their religious texts.

What of the possibility that atheists are the ones deceiving them self in order to support their disbelief?

I agree a person can deceive them self to belive what they desire to believe. But at the same time people can also deceive them self to not believe what is obvious to others.

I find it quite interesting at the number of Atheists that work so hark to convert theists to Atheism. Some Atheists are quite evangelical in their door to door proselytizing on religious forums.

There is more than a little truth in the phrase "Every man sees his own fleas as gazelles."

Life is a trial. We are on this earth for the specific purpose to have the free will of choosing to believe or not believe. We all have the obligation to realizae we can be in error and as a result we must search through the mountain of chaff in this physical realm to find the few grains of wheat.

Allaah(swt) has made the search easy for us, but it is not an easy path, it is always a need to continue our search from birth to death. We will not be judged on the result of our searching, but on our perseverance in searching.

Every person has a set of constantly changing hidden beliefs. Hidden beliefs are the beliefs we have never had challenged, were not taught to us and we are unaware of until they have been challenged. When a person's hidden beliefs are first questioned the person's original reaction is humor, followed by anger if the questioning continues. This is where "inoculation theory" comes into play. The more the hidden belief is questioned the more resilient the individual becomes to the questioning and then they can become a seeker and question in comfort.

I find it of great value for a person to place them self in situations where their beliefs and disbeliefs are questioned as by doing so we learn to question and seek answers. No person should be a blind follower of anything nor accept anything without verification from as many sources as possible.
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Old 12-25-2015, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,592,701 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
What of the possibility that atheists are the ones deceiving them self in order to support their disbelief?

I agree a person can deceive them self to belive what they desire to believe. But at the same time people can also deceive them self to not believe what is obvious to others.

I find it quite interesting at the number of Atheists that work so hark to convert theists to Atheism. Some Atheists are quite evangelical in their door to door proselytizing on religious forums.

There is more than a little truth in the phrase "Every man sees his own fleas as gazelles."

Life is a trial. We are on this earth for the specific purpose to have the free will of choosing to believe or not believe. We all have the obligation to realizae we can be in error and as a result we must search through the mountain of chaff in this physical realm to find the few grains of wheat.

Allaah(swt) has made the search easy for us, but it is not an easy path, it is always a need to continue our search from birth to death. We will not be judged on the result of our searching, but on our perseverance in searching.

Every person has a set of constantly changing hidden beliefs. Hidden beliefs are the beliefs we have never had challenged, were not taught to us and we are unaware of until they have been challenged. When a person's hidden beliefs are first questioned the person's original reaction is humor, followed by anger if the questioning continues. This is where "inoculation theory" comes into play. The more the hidden belief is questioned the more resilient the individual becomes to the questioning and then they can become a seeker and question in comfort.

I find it of great value for a person to place them self in situations where their beliefs and disbeliefs are questioned as by doing so we learn to question and seek answers. No person should be a blind follower of anything nor accept anything without verification from as many sources as possible.
Self-deception is related to believing in a lie to protect their sanity from anxieties and existential angsts. This is explained in that book I linked.
That is applicable to theists.


As for non-theists, generally they are neutral and without any beliefs in relation to a God.
Since there is no lying on any belief, self-deception in this case is not applicable to non-theists.


Note self-deception will exists in many situations and involve all humans [theists and non-theists].
As far the subject of God [a belief in the existence of an illusory thing] is concern, self-deception is not applicable to non-theists.


I agree with your point re inoculation theory. However that is only inoculating to reinforce a lie to feel psychologically comfortable.
Therefore the focus is on a vital lie and not on truths.
Humans who focus on lies are morally inferior and worst if they act on those lies to infringe on the rights of other humans, example SOME evil prone Muslims who kill kuffar based on lies [that Allah exists and give instructions to kill kuffar based on vague terms.
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Old 12-25-2015, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,320,105 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Self-deception is related to believing in a lie to protect their sanity from anxieties and existential angsts. This is explained in that book I linked.
That is applicable to theists.


As for non-theists, generally they are neutral and without any beliefs in relation to a God.
Since there is no lying on any belief, self-deception in this case is not applicable to non-theists.


Note self-deception will exists in many situations and involve all humans [theists and non-theists].
As far the subject of God [a belief in the existence of an illusory thing] is concern, self-deception is not applicable to non-theists.


I agree with your point re inoculation theory. However that is only inoculating to reinforce a lie to feel psychologically comfortable.
Therefore the focus is on a vital lie and not on truths.
Humans who focus on lies are morally inferior and worst if they act on those lies to infringe on the rights of other humans, example SOME evil prone Muslims who kill kuffar based on lies [that Allah exists and give instructions to kill kuffar based on vague terms.
I agree with all except one sentence.
Quote:
Since there is no lying on any belief, self-deception in this case is not applicable to non-theists.
That is based upon the assumption God(swt) does not exist. That is a self deception, as God(swt) does exist. However, each person carries the burdan to find proof of his existence. No one is going to be able to prove it to another person, no matter how deeply they believe.

I am absolutely convinced God(swt) exists because of a personal experience. But I do not expect any person to accept my experience as proof God(swt) exists.
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Old 12-26-2015, 01:12 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,592,701 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I agree with all except one sentence.

That is based upon the assumption God(swt) does not exist. That is a self deception, as God(swt) does exist. However, each person carries the burdan to find proof of his existence. No one is going to be able to prove it to another person, no matter how deeply they believe.

I am absolutely convinced God(swt) exists because of a personal experience. But I do not expect any person to accept my experience as proof God(swt) exists.
I have no issue with whatever you believe [real, not real, illusion, whatever] as long as you keep it private and personal without bringing into the public sphere to infringe or threaten the rights of others.


The problem with Islam as it is practiced by most individual Muslims and collectively is they imposed their beliefs onto the public sphere and infringe on the rights of other individuals [non-Muslims] to the extreme of mass raping and killing the kuffar.
Theists [some Muslims] kill non-believers because they believe the God [when there is no such God] permit it.
Muslims oppress and subjugate non-Muslims because their Allah permit it.
Muslims subjugate women and practice misogynism because Allah [no proof it exists] permit it.
Just recently;
Somalia and Brunei banned Christian celebration in public;
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/1...180327602.html

Since theists bring God into the public sphere then they have to justify the existence of God in accordance to the conventional standards in the public sphere.
In order to justify the existence of God in the public sphere theists must prove God's existence as real as justified with empirical evidence and other relevant epistemological justifications.
Since theists has not been able to prove the existence of God from the perspective of the public sphere, but yet they insist God exists to the extent of imposing their belief onto others [even kill non-believers], that is a self-deception. That is because they believe in a vital lie merely to soothe their emotional and psychological needs.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-26-2015 at 01:26 AM..
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Old 12-26-2015, 03:10 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,320,105 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have no issue with whatever you believe [real, not real, illusion, whatever] as long as you keep it private and personal without bringing into the public sphere to infringe or threaten the rights of others.


The problem with Islam as it is practiced by most individual Muslims and collectively is they imposed their beliefs onto the public sphere and infringe on the rights of other individuals [non-Muslims] to the extreme of mass raping and killing the kuffar.
Theists [some Muslims] kill non-believers because they believe the God [when there is no such God] permit it.
Muslims oppress and subjugate non-Muslims because their Allah permit it.
Muslims subjugate women and practice misogynism because Allah [no proof it exists] permit it.
Just recently;
Somalia and Brunei banned Christian celebration in public;
Somalia and Brunei ban Christmas celebrations - Al Jazeera English

Since theists bring God into the public sphere then they have to justify the existence of God in accordance to the conventional standards in the public sphere.
In order to justify the existence of God in the public sphere theists must prove God's existence as real as justified with empirical evidence and other relevant epistemological justifications.
Since theists has not been able to prove the existence of God from the perspective of the public sphere, but yet they insist God exists to the extent of imposing their belief onto others [even kill non-believers], that is a self-deception. That is because they believe in a vital lie merely to soothe their emotional and psychological needs.
I have no need to impose my beliefs upon others. I only bring up my beliefs when in response to questions relating to them. I gain nothing if others believe as I do and I loose nothing if they don't.
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