U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-22-2015, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

7:12. He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him [Adam] Thou didst create of mud.


7:13. He said: Then go down hence! It is not for thee to show pride here, so go forth! Lo! thou art of those degraded.


....


7:20. Then Satan whispered to them [Adam & Eve] that he might manifest unto them that which was hidden from them of their shame, and he said: Your Lord forbade you from this tree only lest ye should become angels or become of the immortals.


It would appear there is an error in the above sequence.
In 7:13 Satan was banished from the Garden.
In 7:20 Satan whispered to Adam and Eve in the Garden.


The illogic is, if Satan was banished from the Garden forever how did he appear again in the Garden to whisper to Adam and Eve.


This is obvious an error [non-sequitor] amongst the many in the Quran.


Your views?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-22-2015, 03:47 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,786 times
Reputation: 90
Satan was banished from the rank of the Angels who used to pray to God.
He used to have a hight position because he was among the most sincere worshipper among the djinns.
At that time he was only banished from that position, that's why he still could have access to see Adam & Eva and whispering to them.

Satan was banished first from the rank's of angels, then from the Paradise.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2015, 10:20 AM
 
120 posts, read 107,568 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post


It would appear there is an error in the above sequence.
In 7:13 Satan was banished from the Garden.
In 7:20 Satan whispered to Adam and Eve in the Garden.
Looks like you are here to disprove the Quran, many have tried and failed. going back to the topic, you answered your own question, see the bold word, whisper doesn't require physical presence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2015, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Satan was banished from the rank of the Angels who used to pray to God.
He used to have a hight position because he was among the most sincere worshipper among the djinns.
At that time he was only banished from that position, that's why he still could have access to see Adam & Eva and whispering to them.

Satan was banished first from the rank's of angels, then from the Paradise.
You are wrong, read the verse 7:13 again.
Note Satan was banished physical 'down' to Earth. It is a physical separation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2015, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by NABILBB View Post
Looks like you are here to disprove the Quran, many have tried and failed. going back to the topic, you answered your own question, see the bold word, whisper doesn't require physical presence.
I assert the Quran has GOOD elements and useful for many Muslims.
However the Quran also contain a high % of evil elements that inspire SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims on the basis they do not believe and are corrupt.
The good of Islam is obvious so of no concern to me but the evil elements are a concern to humanity and my critique of the Quran is to find the root causes of such evil elements and their real effects.


Can you whisper to your girlfriend/wife from 50 feet away?
Note Satan was banished from heaven and sent down to Earth.
So far the Hubble Telescope has not seen heaven thus if it exists it must be billions of light years away.


Based on the logic and context of 7:13, there is no way Satan can whisper to Adam & Eve in heaven from far away Earth.
Note, heaven or paradise is such an exclusive place and there is no way Allah will allow any stray whispers from Satan to float around heaven to pollute the minds of Muslims who have been saved.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2015, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
7:12. He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him [Adam] Thou didst create of mud.


7:13. He said: Then go down hence! It is not for thee to show pride here, so go forth! Lo! thou art of those degraded.


....


7:20. Then Satan whispered to them [Adam & Eve] that he might manifest unto them that which was hidden from them of their shame, and he said: Your Lord forbade you from this tree only lest ye should become angels or become of the immortals.


It would appear there is an error in the above sequence.
In 7:13 Satan was banished from the Garden.
In 7:20 Satan whispered to Adam and Eve in the Garden.


The illogic is, if Satan was banished from the Garden forever how did he appear again in the Garden to whisper to Adam and Eve.


This is obvious an error [non-sequitor] amongst the many in the Quran.


Your views?

Read from 7:10 to 7:20 and you will have your answer

And We created you, then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who make prostration. - 7:11
He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud. - 7:12 (Picktall)
He said: Then go down hence! It is not for thee to show pride here, so go forth! Lo! thou art of those degraded. - 7:13 (Picktall)
He said: Reprieve me till the day when they are raised (from the dead). - 7:14 (Picktall)
He said: Lo! thou art of those reprieved. - 7:15 (Picktall)

He said : Now, because Thou hast sent me astray, verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path. - 7:16 (Picktall)
Then I shall come upon them from before them and from behind them and from their right bands and from their left hands, and Thou wilt not find most of them beholden (unto Thee). - 7:17 (Picktall)
He said: Go forth from hence, degraded, banished. As for such of them as follow thee, surely I will fill hell with all of you. - 7:18 (Picktall)
And (unto man): O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden and eat from whence ye will, but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers. - 7:19 (Picktall)
Then Satan whispered to them that he might manifest unto them that which was hidden from them of their shame, and he said: Your Lord forbade you from this tree only lest ye should become angels or become of the immortals. - 7:20 (Picktall)
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2015, 10:44 AM
 
144 posts, read 107,786 times
Reputation: 90
You should read the whole verses together to understand it.
Since the beginning Allah knew what Satan wanted to do, that's why He said to Adam to avoid the tree (which was just a test in reality) and also He said to him that Satan was their ennemy.

What we know is that Satan used to came with the honors close to God with the Angels, then he was banished from this.
And after that from the Heavens for good with Adam & Eve.

Remember that Satan said to God that he will whisper to humans as much as he can, and Allah said he can do that.
If he was allowed to do that but he couldn't reach Adam then it was impossible to accomplish what he said (to push away people from God).

But if you read the whole Quran, you see that it needed to be that way.

Allah said He will create a Khalifa on earth when He announced the creation of Adam.
He also said :

21.16 We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them in play.
21.17
If We had wished to find a pastime, We could have found it in Our presence - if We ever did.

23.115
Deemed ye then that We had created you for naught, and that ye would not be returned unto Us?

44.38
And We created not the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in play.
44.39
We created them not save with truth; but most of them know not.


We don't believe that this happened suddenly, we know that God knows the future so the things needed to be that way.
And that's why we don't believe in the original sin. If Allah wanted the humans to be in all in Heavens and not tested because of the devil, He would have made it that way.
And He wouldn't have created everything for us in earth : the rain, water, food, animals, herbs, materials (oil, steal, gold ...) for nothing but for us.
We also do believe that the messengers didn't came by chance but all of them were decided before Adam was created to guide us.

All this makes senses when you read all carefully.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2015, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Read from 7:10 to 7:20 and you will have your answer

And We created you, then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who make prostration. - 7:11
He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud. - 7:12 (Picktall)
He said: Then go down hence! It is not for thee to show pride here, so go forth! Lo! thou art of those degraded. - 7:13 (Picktall)
He said: Reprieve me till the day when they are raised (from the dead). - 7:14 (Picktall)
He said: Lo! thou art of those reprieved. - 7:15 (Picktall)
He said : Now, because Thou hast sent me astray, verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path. - 7:16 (Picktall)
Then I shall come upon them from before them and from behind them and from their right bands and from their left hands, and Thou wilt not find most of them beholden (unto Thee). - 7:17 (Picktall)
He said: Go forth from hence, degraded, banished. As for such of them as follow thee, surely I will fill hell with all of you. - 7:18 (Picktall)
And (unto man): O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden and eat from whence ye will, but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers. - 7:19 (Picktall)
Then Satan whispered to them that he might manifest unto them that which was hidden from them of their shame, and he said: Your Lord forbade you from this tree only lest ye should become angels or become of the immortals. - 7:20 (Picktall)
Note the 'reprieve' was only effective only on Earth, i.e. Satan was banished 'down there' on Earth far away and not in heaven or paradise.
So your 'reprieve' point is not valid.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2015, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
You should read the whole verses together to understand it.
Since the beginning Allah knew what Satan wanted to do, that's why He said to Adam to avoid the tree (which was just a test in reality) and also He said to him that Satan was their ennemy.

What we know is that Satan used to came with the honors close to God with the Angels, then he was banished from this.
And after that from the Heavens for good with Adam & Eve.

Remember that Satan said to God that he will whisper to humans as much as he can, and Allah said he can do that.
If he was allowed to do that but he couldn't reach Adam then it was impossible to accomplish what he said (to push away people from God).

But if you read the whole Quran, you see that it needed to be that way.

Allah said He will create a Khalifa on earth when He announced the creation of Adam.
He also said :

21.16 We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them in play.
21.17 If We had wished to find a pastime, We could have found it in Our presence - if We ever did.

23.115 Deemed ye then that We had created you for naught, and that ye would not be returned unto Us?

44.38 And We created not the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in play.
44.39 We created them not save with truth; but most of them know not.


We don't believe that this happened suddenly, we know that God knows the future so the things needed to be that way.
And that's why we don't believe in the original sin. If Allah wanted the humans to be in all in Heavens and not tested because of the devil, He would have made it that way.
And He wouldn't have created everything for us in earth : the rain, water, food, animals, herbs, materials (oil, steal, gold ...) for nothing but for us.
We also do believe that the messengers didn't came by chance but all of them were decided before Adam was created to guide us.

All this makes senses when you read all carefully.
I have read the whole verse and it do not make sense.
Note I mentioned there is a big distance between Paradise and Earth.
Satan was banished to far away Earth so he cannot whisper to Adam & Eve who were still in heaven.


My point;
The issue is not very critical but
Since the Quran is claimed as perfect and error free from an all powerful God,
the above doubts prove that the Quran is not error free and perfect.


The Quran is supposed to be easy to understand as claimed by Allah.
The way one has to perform mental gymnastic to understand the statements prove otherwise.


If Allah is all powerful and Omniscient, Allah should have constructed the verses to make it very simple to understand without doubts and ambiguity. In this case I [as fallible human] could do better.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2015, 06:56 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,078 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have read the whole verse and it do not make sense.
Note I mentioned there is a big distance between Paradise and Earth.
Satan was banished to far away Earth so he cannot whisper to Adam & Eve who were still in heaven.


My point;
The issue is not very critical but
Since the Quran is claimed as perfect and error free from an all powerful God,
the above doubts prove that the Quran is not error free and perfect.


The Quran is supposed to be easy to understand as claimed by Allah.
The way one has to perform mental gymnastic to understand the statements prove otherwise.


If Allah is all powerful and Omniscient, Allah should have constructed the verses to make it very simple to understand without doubts and ambiguity. In this case I [as fallible human] could do better.
Quran is like a telegraphic message and Allah made it that way may be because if Allah had given all details from Adam to Jesus(peace be upon them) then a Room would have been filled with Quran and who would read it ? specially for Non-Muslims.

The Holy Prophet explained to his followers about the existence of Satan, so the Holy Quran is not obliged to tell us exactly who he was.

it doesn’t matter for the Scriptures are implicatively clear that God Himself allowed Satan to enter the Garden to lead Adam and Eve astray. And also at that time Jinns can travel from earth to certain levels in heavens until when Muhammad(PBUH) came and Allah forbidden Jinns to travel. There is no error in it for a person with common sense.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top