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Old 12-22-2015, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.
He [Satan] was of the Jinn, so he rebelled against his Lord's command.
Will ye choose him and his seed [progeny] for your protecting friends instead of Me, when they are an enemy unto you? Calamitous is the exchange for evil doers!


There is an error in the above verse?
In the first line, Allah said unto the angels.
The second line Satan-the Jinn rebelled.
This does not follow.


If Allah only ordered the angels to prostrate, how can Allah then refer to Satan - a Jinn and condemned him.
Satan could have replied, look you did NOT order me to prostate, how come you condemn me?
Angels [made of light] are totally different from Jinn [made of fire].


To ensure there is no error, the first sentence in 18:50 should have been written as;
18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels and Jinns: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.
Therefore it is clear-cut the Quran made a serious error here.




Satan has progeny - children??
How did Satan produce children.
Is this narrative from this video [below] true?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHqmOr5_kkI
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Old 12-23-2015, 06:02 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.
He [Satan] was of the Jinn, so he rebelled against his Lord's command.
Will ye choose him and his seed [progeny] for your protecting friends instead of Me, when they are an enemy unto you? Calamitous is the exchange for evil doers!


There is an error in the above verse?
In the first line, Allah said unto the angels.
The second line Satan-the Jinn rebelled.
This does not follow.


If Allah only ordered the angels to prostrate, how can Allah then refer to Satan - a Jinn and condemned him.
Satan could have replied, look you did NOT order me to prostate, how come you condemn me?
Angels [made of light] are totally different from Jinn [made of fire].


To ensure there is no error, the first sentence in 18:50 should have been written as;
18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels and Jinns: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.
Therefore it is clear-cut the Quran made a serious error here.




Satan has progeny - children??
How did Satan produce children.
Is this narrative from this video [below] true?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHqmOr5_kkI
18:50 in Arabic reads as

Al-Kahf (The Cave) - 18:50
وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَاء مِن دُونِي وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ بِئْسَ لِلظَّالِمِينَ بَدَلًا (18:50)

Waith qulna lilmalaikati osjudoo liadama fasajadoo illa ibleesa kana mina aljinni fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi afatattakhithoonahu wathurriyyatahu awliyaa min doonee wahum lakum AAaduwwun bisa lilththalimeena badalan

While lilmailkati is translated as The Angels

Malak (Singular form of malaikati) has a much deeper meaning
along with Angels it carries the meaning of personnel. Basically in the context of the sentence it means all who were in heaven. It is not limited to Angels.

In Arabic the grammar has no problem with lilmalaikati referring also to the Djinn and any other beings that may have been in Heaven.

Asad's translation is much more accurate than many of the others:

[SIZE=2]AND [remember that] when We told the angels, "Prostrate yourselves before Adam," [52] they all prostrated themselves, save Iblis: he [too] was one of those invisible beings, [53] but then he turned away from his Sustainer's command. Will you, then, take him and his cohorts [54] for (your], masters instead of Me, although they are your foe? How vile an exchange on the evildoers' part! [55] - 18:50 [SIZE=1](Asad)[/SIZE][/SIZE]

As Malak does not carry the meaning of just angel, it means any entity including Angels among other things. There are also numeous other words that can be translated as Angel.


As for the video, pure nonsense. Sounds like a fabrication. We believe the Djinn are very similar to humans, are male and female, like humans can be Muslims or non-Muslims. They marry have children and like humans are mortal age and die.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 12-23-2015 at 06:59 AM..
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Old 12-23-2015, 10:10 AM
 
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Satan is the only Djinn that was among the Angels, because he was the morst pious djinns of his time and had the honor to be with them, with the more closest to God, which is an honor.
That's why he was even present when Adam was created

We believe that djinns were created before humans and we believe that they were living in Earth before us.
This is something that you can see when the Angels ask God why he would created a human who will spread blood.
If the Angels have this thoughts that because the djinns before were already doing it.
There's much more details concerning all that in the hadiths.


Of course we believe Iblis has children, and his children are devils, they are bad like him and are called "shayateen" which mean "demons".
You can read the Surah "The Djinns" for more details.

There's no error at all as there's thousand of angels or more who pray Allah each day.
Satan was just one djinn among many angels, so the order was general. And that's why Satan didn't say "you didn't ask me to do so" he just said "i'm better than him "(Adam).
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Old 12-23-2015, 11:13 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazira View Post
Satan is the only Djinn that was among the Angels, because he was the morst pious djinns of his time and had the honor to be with them, with the more closest to God, which is an honor.
That's why he was even present when Adam was created



There's no error at all as there's thousand of angels or more who pray Allah each day.
Satan was just one djinn among many angels, so the order was general. And that's why Satan didn't say "you didn't ask me to do so" he just said "i'm better than him "(Adam).
You are just guessing.

18:50 stated very clearly "angels' and nothing else.
18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.


The presentation is very bad.
If Satan was among the angels then, the proper statement would be
18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels and Satan: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.


Look I can write a better and clearer statement than Allah?

Last edited by Continuum; 12-23-2015 at 11:47 PM..
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Old 12-23-2015, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
18:50 in Arabic reads as

Al-Kahf (The Cave) - 18:50
وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَاء مِن دُونِي وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ بِئْسَ لِلظَّالِمِينَ بَدَلًا (18:50)

Waith qulna lilmalaikati osjudoo liadama fasajadoo illa ibleesa kana mina aljinni fafasaqa AAan amri rabbihi afatattakhithoonahu wathurriyyatahu awliyaa min doonee wahum lakum AAaduwwun bisa lilththalimeena badalan

While lilmailkati is translated as The Angels

Malak (Singular form of malaikati) has a much deeper meaning
along with Angels it carries the meaning of personnel. Basically in the context of the sentence it means all who were in heaven. It is not limited to Angels.

In Arabic the grammar has no problem with lilmalaikati referring also to the Djinn and any other beings that may have been in Heaven.

Asad's translation is much more accurate than many of the others:

AND [remember that] when We told the angels, "Prostrate yourselves before Adam," [52] they all prostrated themselves, save Iblis: he [too] was one of those invisible beings, [53] but then he turned away from his Sustainer's command. Will you, then, take him and his cohorts [54] for (your], masters instead of Me, although they are your foe? How vile an exchange on the evildoers' part! [55] - 18:50 (Asad)

As Malak does not carry the meaning of just angel, it means any entity including Angels among other things. There are also numeous other words that can be translated as Angel.


As for the video, pure nonsense. Sounds like a fabrication. We believe the Djinn are very similar to humans, are male and female, like humans can be Muslims or non-Muslims. They marry have children and like humans are mortal age and die.
You claimed Asad's is more accurate, but he is still referring to 'angels' which is not precise if the intention is to include Satan as well.
I went through 45+ English-translated Qurans, they all used the term 'angels.'

As I mentioned elsewhere, this is not a very critical point but such doubts demonstrate the Quran is not as perfect and error free as it is claimed.


Instead of explaining 'malaikat' and malak can be taken in the various contexts, Allah should have stated the following to be precise.
18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels and Satan: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.


18:50. And (remember) when We said unto all who are present: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.


18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels and all who are present: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.
Any of the above could have be more precise and fall in line with the rest of the verses.
How come I can do better than Allah?
Indeed this is one example where I can challenge the Quran to produce something better.


This example and many others [errors, contradictions, falsehoods, etc.] prove the Quran is not perfect nor error free as it is claimed.


Why Muslims insist Quran is perfect and error free [despite the proof to show otherwise] is due to psychological reasons you are familiar with, i.e. inoculation theory [Mcquire], Confirmation bias, inattentive bias and all sorts of defence mechanisms and excuses to protect the sanity of their passage to eternal life and avoid hell.


As for the video, you may disagree, but he took it from the authorized sources that are recognized by a lot of Muslims. Thus such ideas [which is ridiculous] would be believed literally by many who respect the said source.

Last edited by Continuum; 12-23-2015 at 11:49 PM..
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Old 12-24-2015, 03:41 AM
 
88 posts, read 35,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You claimed Asad's is more accurate, but he is still referring to 'angels' which is not precise if the intention is to include Satan as well.
I went through 45+ English-translated Qurans, they all used the term 'angels.'

As I mentioned elsewhere, this is not a very critical point but such doubts demonstrate the Quran is not as perfect and error free as it is claimed.


Instead of explaining 'malaikat' and malak can be taken in the various contexts, Allah should have stated the following to be precise.
18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels and Satan: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.


18:50. And (remember) when We said unto all who are present: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.


18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels and all who are present: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.
Any of the above could have be more precise and fall in line with the rest of the verses.
How come I can do better than Allah?
Indeed this is one example where I can challenge the Quran to produce something better.


This example and many others [errors, contradictions, falsehoods, etc.] prove the Quran is not perfect nor error free as it is claimed.


Why Muslims insist Quran is perfect and error free [despite the proof to show otherwise] is due to psychological reasons you are familiar with, i.e. inoculation theory [Mcquire], Confirmation bias, inattentive bias and all sorts of defence mechanisms and excuses to protect the sanity of their passage to eternal life and avoid hell.


As for the video, you may disagree, but he took it from the authorized sources that are recognized by a lot of Muslims. Thus such ideas [which is ridiculous] would be believed literally by many who respect the said source.
The verse is absolutely perfect if you could undestand Arabic then you would have never made this argument. The problem is you dont want to know and just Imagining things which are not there, you believe everything which is said against Quran.

The Quran was revealed in Arabic not English. In Arabic grammar there is a rule known as Tagleeb, according to which, if the majority is addressed, even the minority is included. If for example, I address a class containing 100 students of whom 99 are boys and one is a girl, and if I say in Arabic that the boys should stand up, it includes the girl as well. I need not mention her seperately.

Similarly in the Qur’an, when Allah addressed the angels, even Iblis was present, but it is not required that he be mentioned separately. we come to know from Surah Al Kahf chapter 18 verse 50 that Iblis was a Jinn, Therefore there is no contradiction in the Quran.
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Old 12-24-2015, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by int007 View Post
The verse is absolutely perfect if you could undestand Arabic then you would have never made this argument. The problem is you dont want to know and just Imagining things which are not there, you believe everything which is said against Quran.

The Quran was revealed in Arabic not English. In Arabic grammar there is a rule known as Tagleeb, according to which, if the majority is addressed, even the minority is included. If for example, I address a class containing 100 students of whom 99 are boys and one is a girl, and if I say in Arabic that the boys should stand up, it includes the girl as well. I need not mention her seperately.

Similarly in the Qur’an, when Allah addressed the angels, even Iblis was present, but it is not required that he be mentioned separately. we come to know from Surah Al Kahf chapter 18 verse 50 that Iblis was a Jinn, Therefore there is no contradiction in the Quran.
'Tagleeb' as you have defined it is merely common sense.
The general conventional rule is the majority prevail, win, superior, etc.
However, if there is really such a rule in Arabic grammar, then it is a very inferior language as it can cause a lot of confusion, corruption and bad communications.


Btw, I mentioned I have no issue with understanding the context, what I am complaining is God as all powerful and all knowing should not have resort to such a low level 'rule' to communicate his message. If the Quran is supposed to be perfect, error free and of the highest quality [claimed as no one can duplicate] then it must be precise and clear.


Even if the Quran was revealed in Arabic, Allah being all powerful should have used his Omni-intelligence to make the message clear instead of following that weird local rule.
My hypothesis is why such an ambiguous local rule [Tagleeb] was used was because the whole Quran was authored by an Arabic person or group of people who had been habituated with such usage.
Allah being all powerful could have added a few words to make it more precise.
18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels and Satan: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.


18:50. And (remember) when We said unto all who are present: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.


18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels and all who are present: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis
Thus any one with basic Arabic can understand the above rather than waiting for some one who is familiar with Arabic grammar to get the meaning.


Why in this case I said Arabic grammar is inferior?
Note the common usage, a speaker when addressing a mixed audience will normally start with,
'Ladies and Gentlemen' so as be inclusive, more precise and show respect for individual as much as possible. Other similar inclusive phrases are used, e.g. 'brothers & sisters' 'To all who are present', and the likes.


A side point;
The Quran stated very clearly Allah will sent a messenger of their own, i.e. a local guy who speaks the language.
Since it is not Muhammad who authored the Quran, Allah being all powerful should have delivered a Quran that is clear, exact and concise, not one that is twisted with odd grammatical rule.
Thus the Quran is Arabic should be confined to merely those who are Arabs within Arab nations.
Therefore something is wrong when the Arabic Quran is spread from Spain to China and translated into the local language.


By Allah words, Allah should have sent another messenger who is in Spain, speaks the Spanish and recite the 'Quran' from Allah via another angel.
Similarly there should be a different local messenger who is speak the local language for India, China, Iran, etc.
The fact that the same Arabic Quran is forced upon the people of other Nations and translated into the local language indicate there is something wrong [contradiction in reality] with Islam.
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Old 12-24-2015, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
'Tagleeb' as you have defined it is merely common sense.
The general conventional rule is the majority prevail, win, superior, etc.
However, if there is really such a rule in Arabic grammar, then it is a very inferior language as it can cause a lot of confusion, corruption and bad communications.


Btw, I mentioned I have no issue with understanding the context, what I am complaining is God as all powerful and all knowing should not have resort to such a low level 'rule' to communicate his message. If the Quran is supposed to be perfect, error free and of the highest quality [claimed as no one can duplicate] then it must be precise and clear.


Even if the Quran was revealed in Arabic, Allah being all powerful should have used his Omni-intelligence to make the message clear instead of following that weird local rule.
My hypothesis is why such an ambiguous local rule [Tagleeb] was used was because the whole Quran was authored by an Arabic person or group of people who had been habituated with such usage.
Allah being all powerful could have added a few words to make it more precise.
18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels and Satan: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.


18:50. And (remember) when We said unto all who are present: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis.


18:50. And (remember) when We said unto the angels and all who are present: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis
Thus any one with basic Arabic can understand the above rather than waiting for some one who is familiar with Arabic grammar to get the meaning.


Why in this case I said Arabic grammar is inferior?
Note the common usage, a speaker when addressing a mixed audience will normally start with,
'Ladies and Gentlemen' so as be inclusive, more precise and show respect for individual as much as possible. Other similar inclusive phrases are used, e.g. 'brothers & sisters' 'To all who are present', and the likes.


A side point;
The Quran stated very clearly Allah will sent a messenger of their own, i.e. a local guy who speaks the language.
Since it is not Muhammad who authored the Quran, Allah being all powerful should have delivered a Quran that is clear, exact and concise, not one that is twisted with odd grammatical rule.
Thus the Quran is Arabic should be confined to merely those who are Arabs within Arab nations.
Therefore something is wrong when the Arabic Quran is spread from Spain to China and translated into the local language.


By Allah words, Allah should have sent another messenger who is in Spain, speaks the Spanish and recite the 'Quran' from Allah via another angel.
Similarly there should be a different local messenger who is speak the local language for India, China, Iran, etc.
The fact that the same Arabic Quran is forced upon the people of other Nations and translated into the local language indicate there is something wrong [contradiction in reality] with Islam.
there is no need to add anything as Malak while being a word for Angels, when used in a sentence it can and in this case include a non-Angel. In reading the entire Surah it is obvious it did Include Iblis who was a Djinn.

Shaytan does not refer to just Iblis any creature with free will can be a Shaytan the Angels can not be a Shaytan as they do not have free will. the only created creature we are aware of that have free will are Djinn and Humans. Therefore Iblis was not an Angel and in this ayyat Malak was not referring to only Angels. Even if the intent is that Malak was not to mean "All Present" It is still proper brammar to use Malak as Angels were the Majority. If the Audience was majority female with one male present it would be proper Arabic to address the group as Binti (My Ladies)

It is grammatically and content correct to use only the word Malak in reference to the Angels and one Djinn. Other ayyats in the Surah do clarify it included Iblis. As most Arabic words carry a multitude of meanings, to determine the exact meaning one needs to see what is reffered to in context of the specific Surah.

If I were to write something containing the word Kowee would you know if I am speaking of Coffee, the color black, hot, or bitter taste without reading all of my discourse? As Kowee can mean any or all of those definitions at the same time, depending upon what I was writing about.

The full surah makes it clear malak is referring to Angels and Iblis.

Translations of the Qur'an are not the Qur'an, they are a crutch non-Arabic speakers can use while learning to actually read the Qur'an. Much like training wheels on a bicycle. A tool to help, but not the actual thing.
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