U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-02-2016, 02:19 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Here is Nabeel Qureshi's Views;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNwIpqlDgVc






Here is the counter view;
The Ahmadis Are Not Muslims:
The Ahmadis Are Not Muslims




Here is the middle-view [a humane one] from Tahir Ashrafi [Pakistan] who got punched and assaulted by another dissenting violent Muslim.
Two Pakistani clerics fight at meeting over status of Ahmadi sect | World news | The Guardian


Personally I would agree with Nabeel, i.e. as I had claimed before;
Objectively, Ahmadis are technically [in substance] Muslims.


Note this from an Ahmadiyya site:
We [Ahmadis] believe in Islam as taught in the Holy Quran and as illustrated in practice by the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
Our belief is that the Holy Prophet Muhammad was the Last and final Prophet, after whom no prophet whatsoever can appear.
A word about ourselves
The difference is only in the peripherals issues [in Forms] just like the different sects of the Sunnis and Shia has their differences.


Views?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-02-2016, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is Nabeel Qureshi's Views;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNwIpqlDgVc






Here is the counter view;
The Ahmadis Are Not Muslims:
The Ahmadis Are Not Muslims




Here is the middle-view [a humane one] from Tahir Ashrafi [Pakistan] who got punched and assaulted by another dissenting violent Muslim.
Two Pakistani clerics fight at meeting over status of Ahmadi sect | World news | The Guardian


Personally I would agree with Nabeel, i.e. as I had claimed before;
Objectively, Ahmadis are technically [in substance] Muslims.


Note this from an Ahmadiyya site:
We [Ahmadis] believe in Islam as taught in the Holy Quran and as illustrated in practice by the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
Our belief is that the Holy Prophet Muhammad was the Last and final Prophet, after whom no prophet whatsoever can appear.
A word about ourselves
The difference is only in the peripherals issues [in Forms] just like the different sects of the Sunnis and Shia has their differences.


Views?
I for one accept all people who claim to be Muslim as being Muslim. There is no way to'prove'who is or is not a Muslim. Performing Islam is strictly between the individual and Allaah(swt) none of us can see into another person's heart and thoughts intent and doing to the best of ones ability is 99.9% of performing Islam and we have no way of knowing if anyone except our self is doing so. A person can perform 100% of all actions required of a Muslim for the single intent of control over a group of followers yet not even believe in the existence of Allaah(swt) In other words in their actions appear to be Muslim but in their hearts being atheists.

I do accept the Ahmadyyah as being Muslim but they are making an error by not accepting the Qur'an as the final revelation and in their belief Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the final Prophet and the Messiah
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-02-2016, 09:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I for one accept all people who claim to be Muslim as being Muslim. There is no way to'prove'who is or is not a Muslim. Performing Islam is strictly between the individual and Allaah(swt) none of us can see into another person's heart and thoughts intent and doing to the best of ones ability is 99.9% of performing Islam and we have no way of knowing if anyone except our self is doing so. A person can perform 100% of all actions required of a Muslim for the single intent of control over a group of followers yet not even believe in the existence of Allaah(swt) In other words in their actions appear to be Muslim but in their hearts being atheists.

I do accept the Ahmadyyah as being Muslim but they are making an error by not accepting the Qur'an as the final revelation and in their belief Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the final Prophet and the Messiah
I noted your acceptance of the Ahmadis as being Muslim but your very subjective views are very wrong.


You need to deliberate matters and issues under various perspectives to assess their validity.


1. First no humans can be Allah [omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient and Omni-whatever], thus can never be absolutely 100% certain they know something.


2. Since humans are not Allah, they cannot know the truth about another person's real thoughts if that person does not reveal it truthfully. This is why we can never know ABSOLUTELY whether a person is a Muslim or not. It is the same we cannot know for sure whether one is truly a Communists, Nazi, Christian, or any other ideology. Therefore we should forget totally on wanting to know such God-based truth. This point is moot for our discussion.


3. Even in some very marginal cases of murder there is no way the judge and jury and be 100% certain whether the person on the stand is the murderer or not. [Only God knows if one believe in God]. However there are objective methods that can be used to determine knowledge that is as close as possible to the exact truth based on various evidences.


4. Similarly we can assess whether a person is a Muslim, Christian, Communist, Nazi or not based on objective evidences available to us as humans.
In the case of a Muslim, such objective truth [technical definition] will determine whether a person is a Muslim or not. This objective truth is valid for a Muslim or Muslim groups to be recognized by the government authorities for tax exemptions, financial assistance and others considerations REGARDLESS whether the 'Muslim' is telling the truth about his/her beliefs.


5. The above objective truth of a Muslim thus determine whether a person is technically a Muslim or not.


6. A person is technically a Muslim if he qualify within the following;
a. Enter into a covenant with Allah, explicitly [e.g. declare sahada] or implicitly [e.g. birth].
b. Done the following regularly as expected, pray, fast, pay zakat,
c. Will do pilgrimage to Mecca when can afford it.
d. Comply with as many terms and conditions in the Quran as possible within his capabilities.
7. On the basis of 6, Ahamadis are technically Muslims.


Quote:
I do accept the Ahmadyyah as being Muslim but they are making an error by not accepting the Qur'an as the final revelation and in their belief Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the final Prophet and the Messiah
You are the one who is making the error, I wonder how you miss this point I posted in the OP;
the Ahmadis declared the following;

We [Ahmadis] believe in Islam as taught in the Holy Quran and as illustrated in practice by the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
Our belief is that the Holy Prophet Muhammad was the Last and final Prophet, after whom no prophet whatsoever can appear.
A word about ourselves
The Ahmadis view the Quran and Muhammad as the most superior elements of Allah.
Whatever SOME Ahmadis may claim, essentially the Ahmadis regard Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as another person [a great person] who gave expositions of the Quran just like the various scholars of the respective Madhab.


Since the Ahmadis [in essence] do not claim Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is greater than Muhammad and besides they never come up with another Quran or holy book, the Ahamadis are technically Muslims.


Thus the inter-squabbles within Sunni and the Ahmadis are merely peripheral issues and do not effect the essence of the matter of whether the Ahamadis are Muslims or not.


The Ahamadis are not Sunni Muslims, nor Shia Muslims nor Sufi Muslims.
Based on my arguments above, the Ahamadis are technically Muslims, i.e. Ahmadis Muslims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2016, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I noted your acceptance of the Ahmadis as being Muslim but your very subjective views are very wrong.


You need to deliberate matters and issues under various perspectives to assess their validity.


1. First no humans can be Allah [omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient and Omni-whatever], thus can never be absolutely 100% certain they know something.


2. Since humans are not Allah, they cannot know the truth about another person's real thoughts if that person does not reveal it truthfully. This is why we can never know ABSOLUTELY whether a person is a Muslim or not. It is the same we cannot know for sure whether one is truly a Communists, Nazi, Christian, or any other ideology. Therefore we should forget totally on wanting to know such God-based truth. This point is moot for our discussion.


3. Even in some very marginal cases of murder there is no way the judge and jury and be 100% certain whether the person on the stand is the murderer or not. [Only God knows if one believe in God]. However there are objective methods that can be used to determine knowledge that is as close as possible to the exact truth based on various evidences.


4. Similarly we can assess whether a person is a Muslim, Christian, Communist, Nazi or not based on objective evidences available to us as humans.
In the case of a Muslim, such objective truth [technical definition] will determine whether a person is a Muslim or not. This objective truth is valid for a Muslim or Muslim groups to be recognized by the government authorities for tax exemptions, financial assistance and others considerations REGARDLESS whether the 'Muslim' is telling the truth about his/her beliefs.


5. The above objective truth of a Muslim thus determine whether a person is technically a Muslim or not.


6. A person is technically a Muslim if he qualify within the following;
a. Enter into a covenant with Allah, explicitly [e.g. declare sahada] or implicitly [e.g. birth].
b. Done the following regularly as expected, pray, fast, pay zakat,
c. Will do pilgrimage to Mecca when can afford it.
d. Comply with as many terms and conditions in the Quran as possible within his capabilities.
7. On the basis of 6, Ahamadis are technically Muslims.


You are the one who is making the error, I wonder how you miss this point I posted in the OP;
the Ahmadis declared the following;
We [Ahmadis] believe in Islam as taught in the Holy Quran and as illustrated in practice by the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
Our belief is that the Holy Prophet Muhammad was the Last and final Prophet, after whom no prophet whatsoever can appear.
A word about ourselves
The Ahmadis view the Quran and Muhammad as the most superior elements of Allah.
Whatever SOME Ahmadis may claim, essentially the Ahmadis regard Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as another person [a great person] who gave expositions of the Quran just like the various scholars of the respective Madhab.


Since the Ahmadis [in essence] do not claim Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is greater than Muhammad and besides they never come up with another Quran or holy book, the Ahamadis are technically Muslims.


Thus the inter-squabbles within Sunni and the Ahmadis are merely peripheral issues and do not effect the essence of the matter of whether the Ahamadis are Muslims or not.


The Ahamadis are not Sunni Muslims, nor Shia Muslims nor Sufi Muslims.
Based on my arguments above, the Ahamadis are technically Muslims, i.e. Ahmadis Muslims.
My view about Ahmadyyah believing Muhammad(saws) is not the final Prophet and The Qur'an not being the final revelation came from an Ahmaddyyah site

Quote:
A: “The Ahmadiyya movement started by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, who claimed to be the Promised Messiah and the Mahdi. He was fro a village in India called Qadian. He made his claim in 1889, and that’s when the community started. He is a subordinate Prophet to the Prophet Muhammad. The Ahmadiyya Muslims believe that there could be more Prophets after Muhammad as long as the Qur’an is not changed. The statement “Muhammad is the seal of the Prophets” is interpreted as the seal means, instead of being the last Prophet, he is the King of Prophets."
https://prezi.com/us9izzicb5hu/the-a...ic-traditions/
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-03-2016, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
My view about Ahmadyyah believing Muhammad(saws) is not the final Prophet and The Qur'an not being the final revelation came from an Ahmaddyyah site
The site you linked is not an authoritative Ahmadiyyah site.
It is merely an interview and the opinion of a believer of the Ahmadiyya movement.
Faraz Malik Finding the way through the Ahmadiyya Movement and its views on the eschatology of Jesus through Islamic traditions Interview with Tariq Malik, a believer in the Ahmadiyya movement.
https://prezi.com/us9izzicb5hu/the-a...ic-traditions/


The site I quoted is specifically an Ahamdiyyah site,
We [Ahmadis] believe in Islam as taught in the Holy Quran and as illustrated in practice by the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
Our belief is that the Holy Prophet Muhammad was the Last and final Prophet, after whom no prophet whatsoever can appear.
A word about ourselves
From The Lahore Ahmadiyya Islamic Movement
www.ahmadiyya.org


I hope you see the difference.


The point is within the Ahmadis themselves they have different views of which some can be extreme.
However the essence of the Ahmadiyyah is Ahmadis are technically Muslims at the CORE with different views from other Muslims and within themselves.
The differences between Ahmadis and other Muslims are peripheral.


Note the difference when compared with the Bahai movement which merely absorb some elements of the Quran but the founder came up with a separate holy text from the Quran.


So, Ahmadis are technically Muslims at the CORE.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2016, 06:58 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The site you linked is not an authoritative Ahmadiyyah site.
It is merely an interview and the opinion of a believer of the Ahmadiyya movement.
Faraz Malik Finding the way through the Ahmadiyya Movement and its views on the eschatology of Jesus through Islamic traditions Interview with Tariq Malik, a believer in the Ahmadiyya movement.
https://prezi.com/us9izzicb5hu/the-a...ic-traditions/


The site I quoted is specifically an Ahamdiyyah site,
We [Ahmadis] believe in Islam as taught in the Holy Quran and as illustrated in practice by the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
Our belief is that the Holy Prophet Muhammad was the Last and final Prophet, after whom no prophet whatsoever can appear.
A word about ourselves
From The Lahore Ahmadiyya Islamic Movement
www.ahmadiyya.org


I hope you see the difference.


The point is within the Ahmadis themselves they have different views of which some can be extreme.
However the essence of the Ahmadiyyah is Ahmadis are technically Muslims at the CORE with different views from other Muslims and within themselves.
The differences between Ahmadis and other Muslims are peripheral.


Note the difference when compared with the Bahai movement which merely absorb some elements of the Quran but the founder came up with a separate holy text from the Quran.


So, Ahmadis are technically Muslims at the CORE.
I also stated I belive Ahmadyyah are Muslim. I said some of their practices are not Islamic. But for that matter as no one is perfect of capable of perfection every living Muslim does some things that are not Islamic.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2016, 09:03 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I also stated I belive Ahmadyyah are Muslim. I said some of their practices are not Islamic. But for that matter as no one is perfect of capable of perfection every living Muslim does some things that are not Islamic.
You stated the following which I do not agree.


Quote:
I for one accept all people who claim to be Muslim as being Muslim. There is no way to'prove'who is or is not a Muslim.

What if I [or any one who is not objectively a Muslim] claims to be a Muslim, would you accept that?
Even if you personally [likely to be the only such person] accept it, that is not a rational and objective acceptance, rather it is blind acceptance.


I stated there is an objective determination of 'what is a Muslim' in accordance to the verses in the Quran, i.e. based on at least a definition and qualification of what and who is a Muslim based on the criterion stipulated in the Quran.


Therefore there must be at least a definition of what is a Muslim and 'seen' to be a Muslim in accordance to the Quran. Any one who do not meet the definition from the Quran cannot be termed a Muslim.


Now the question of whether one is a Muslim in their 'heart' [thoughts, actions and mind] would be a different matter. Since no human can ever be 100% certain of what another human think and feel internally, the question of whether a person is 100% Muslim is moot [useless].




I would not simply accept anyone claiming to be a Muslim based on their declaration, they are a Muslim.
A Muslim is one who qualify to be a Muslim based on the core criterion I listed above.
The Ahmadis meet the core criterion as per the Quran.
Therefore the Ahmadis are technically Muslims at the CORE.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-04-2016, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You stated the following which I do not agree.





What if I [or any one who is not objectively a Muslim] claims to be a Muslim, would you accept that?
Even if you personally [likely to be the only such person] accept it, that is not a rational and objective acceptance, rather it is blind acceptance.


I stated there is an objective determination of 'what is a Muslim' in accordance to the verses in the Quran, i.e. based on at least a definition and qualification of what and who is a Muslim based on the criterion stipulated in the Quran.


Therefore there must be at least a definition of what is a Muslim and 'seen' to be a Muslim in accordance to the Quran. Any one who do not meet the definition from the Quran cannot be termed a Muslim.


Now the question of whether one is a Muslim in their 'heart' [thoughts, actions and mind] would be a different matter. Since no human can ever be 100% certain of what another human think and feel internally, the question of whether a person is 100% Muslim is moot [useless].




I would not simply accept anyone claiming to be a Muslim based on their declaration, they are a Muslim.
A Muslim is one who qualify to be a Muslim based on the core criterion I listed above.
The Ahmadis meet the core criterion as per the Quran.
Therefore the Ahmadis are technically Muslims at the CORE.
As being a Muslim is 99.9% performing Islam to the best of one's ability and knowledge I have no way of knowing if a person is doing that. A person can be outwardly doing everything obsevable to be a Muslim, but is doing so out of deceit and has no intention of being a Muslim. While another person could not be doing a singlee thing that appears to be Islamic, but they are doing to the best of their ability and are a Muslim.

I have no option except to accept every person that claims to be Muslim as being Muslim and it becomes my obligation to do my best to gently correct them if I believe they are doing something not Islamic and show them the reasons I believe it is not Islamic.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2016, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by slamiyyaat View Post
I do not know if this is true about Ahmedis or not,

The Quran says Jesus is the messiah
They say Mirza Gulam Ahmed is the messiah

If is was true, then they are disbelievers in the Quran (not muslims).
In addition a Messiah is a Prophet. So the claim that Mirza Gulam is a Prophet (Messiah) means they do not believe Muhammad(saws) is the final Prophet.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2016, 04:11 PM
 
4,417 posts, read 1,646,121 times
Reputation: 1538
If you read Mirza Ghulam's books, at one point he also claimed that "I am Jesus who has returned from the heavens'.

Ironically, all of Mirza Ghulam's books that were published before 1940 have been mysteriously removed from the market. You will be lucky to find one, and upon reading it, you will be able to see compare his actual writings and what's available to readers in this day and age.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top