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Old 01-09-2016, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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What is Islam and Who is a Muslim
Islam is the religion [way of life] initiated by Muhammad who experienced certain altered states of consciousness and supposedly received messages [codified as the Quran] from Allah via angel Gabriel starting from 610 to 632 AD.
A Muslim is an adherent of Islam.
A confirmed Muslim is one who had [explicitly or implicitly] made a covenant [religious agreement, contract] with Allah in accordance to the terms and conditions in the Quran.


Terms and Conditions
The terms and condition of a covenant [religious agreement, contract] may contain various elements including rules and commands of various degrees.
Allah issued many commands, e.g. obey Allah, no partners besides Allah, kill enemies of Islam [kuffar] under certain conditions [vague]. etc.
There are various exhortations by Allah which are not necessary command nor rules, e.g. be kind to one's parent if they are not sinning, etc.
Therefore we need to review the elements of each verses in the respective contexts and their place as terms and conditions of the covenant a Muslim has made with Allah.


The Quran is declared to be perfect, complete and final to all Muslims. Thus all the conditions of the covenant are included in the perfected and complete Quran and it cannot be from anywhere else. It is thus ridiculous to insist there is only one obligation [i.e. no partners, equal, progeny] in the covenant with Allah.

The Categories of the Terms and Condition of the Covenant
The various terms and conditions, e.g. pray, pay zakat, belief in Muhammad as messenger, fasting are terms and conditions of the covenant with Allah.
While believing Allah is the only God and Muhammad is the messenger are imperative; praying, pay zakat and fasting are not imperatives but obligatory and their merits will be rewarded in accordance to the degree of one's commitment to these acts within the relevant circumstances.


Thus there are three types of terms and conditions of the covenant, i.e.
1. Imperative - absolutely no compromise
2. Obligatory but degrees and exceptions are allowed and provided for depending on circumstances
3. Not obligatory but recommended wherever and whenever one is capable to do it.


Therefore a Muslim in accordance with his covenant with Allah promise to comply with 1, 2 and 3 above.
Other than the imperative terms, a promise need not be acted on a 100% basis. One can promise to act to the best of ones' ability for some of the obligatory and not obligatory terms and conditions.

No one can be sure of one's performance in accordance to the ultimate expectations of Allah.
However if one were to adhere to as close as possible to the words and message of Allah, i.e. the Quran and no where else, one cannot go way off from the truth.
The surest and most certain way for a Muslims to meet Allah's expectation is to rely on the terms and conditions of the covenant from the Quran.


My point:
There are three types of terms and conditions of the covenant, which may include command, rules, order, policies, principles which can be categorized as;
1. Imperative - absolutely no compromise
2. Obligatory not necessary 100% compliance
3. Not obligatory but recommended


Views?
Agree/Disagree?

Last edited by Continuum; 01-09-2016 at 10:30 PM..
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Old 01-10-2016, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What is Islam and Who is a Muslim
Islam is the religion [way of life] initiated by Muhammad who experienced certain altered states of consciousness and supposedly received messages [codified as the Quran] from Allah via angel Gabriel starting from 610 to 632 AD.
A Muslim is an adherent of Islam.
A confirmed Muslim is one who had [explicitly or implicitly] made a covenant [religious agreement, contract] with Allah in accordance to the terms and conditions in the Quran.


Terms and Conditions
The terms and condition of a covenant [religious agreement, contract] may contain various elements including rules and commands of various degrees.
Allah issued many commands, e.g. obey Allah, no partners besides Allah, kill enemies of Islam [kuffar] under certain conditions [vague]. etc.
There are various exhortations by Allah which are not necessary command nor rules, e.g. be kind to one's parent if they are not sinning, etc.
Therefore we need to review the elements of each verses in the respective contexts and their place as terms and conditions of the covenant a Muslim has made with Allah.


The Quran is declared to be perfect, complete and final to all Muslims. Thus all the conditions of the covenant are included in the perfected and complete Quran and it cannot be from anywhere else. It is thus ridiculous to insist there is only one obligation [i.e. no partners, equal, progeny] in the covenant with Allah.

The Categories of the Terms and Condition of the Covenant
The various terms and conditions, e.g. pray, pay zakat, belief in Muhammad as messenger, fasting are terms and conditions of the covenant with Allah.
While believing Allah is the only God and Muhammad is the messenger are imperative; praying, pay zakat and fasting are not imperatives but obligatory and their merits will be rewarded in accordance to the degree of one's commitment to these acts within the relevant circumstances.


Thus there are three types of terms and conditions of the covenant, i.e.
1. Imperative - absolutely no compromise
2. Obligatory but degrees and exceptions are allowed and provided for depending on circumstances
3. Not obligatory but recommended wherever and whenever one is capable to do it.


Therefore a Muslim in accordance with his covenant with Allah promise to comply with 1, 2 and 3 above.
Other than the imperative terms, a promise need not be acted on a 100% basis. One can promise to act to the best of ones' ability for some of the obligatory and not obligatory terms and conditions.

No one can be sure of one's performance in accordance to the ultimate expectations of Allah.
However if one were to adhere to as close as possible to the words and message of Allah, i.e. the Quran and no where else, one cannot go way off from the truth.
The surest and most certain way for a Muslims to meet Allah's expectation is to rely on the terms and conditions of the covenant from the Quran.


My point:
There are three types of terms and conditions of the covenant, which may include command, rules, order, policies, principles which can be categorized as;
1. Imperative - absolutely no compromise
2. Obligatory not necessary 100% compliance
3. Not obligatory but recommended


Views?
Agree/Disagree?
Disagree completely

The Qur'an is not a Law book. It is a book of guidance. The guidance is give in the form of examples and revelations of what to expect in the afterlife. It is also a condensed summary of past scripture. It also tells us some of the Attributes of Allaah(swt)

The covenant we have with Allaah(swt) is that we will worship him alone. To include the Qur'an as a Rule Book of Islam conlicates the covenenant of simply "Worshiping Allaah(swt) alone.

If a person were to adhere to the Qur'an alone, they would not be performing Islam. One does not join Islam, one performs Islam.

Part of the guidance found in the Qur'an is that we are to keep our performance of Islam simple.The Qur'an does not call for a complex covenant filled with rules and laws. We are to simply worship Allaah(swt), no one or anything else

One of the terms used by the Qur'an during the early Makkan period to describe Islam was Al-Yusraa, or 'The Easy Way'. This is simply because Islam was, and is the natural way of life. Indeed, whatever is natural for human beings should be easy for them in every way, hence cause them to gravitate towards it easily, and consequently bring harmony, peace and tranquility to their lives. Since the Quran is the book upon which the Islamic way of life is built, then the Quran has to be easy to understand and follow-it is 'The Easy Way'.

This view that Islam is easy to understand and practice, is one which is derived from the primary sources of Islam. In the Quran, Allah comforts us by continuously reassuring us that He desires for us ease not hardship, despite the seemingly formidable trials and tribulations that we may sometimes face. He says:

'God desires ease for you, and desires not hardship' (2:185);
'Truly with hardship comes ease' (94: 6);
'God will assuredly appoint, after difficulty; easiness' (65:7);
'Whoso fears God, God will appoint for him, of His command, easiness' (65:4);
'We shall speak to him, of our command, easiness' (18:88);
'God desires to lighten things for you, for the human being has been created weak' (4:28).

Islam - the Easy Way

Also Religion is to be in moderation, not in excess.

And do not abuse those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah out of ignorance. Thus have We made fair seeming to every people their deeds; then to their Lord shall be their return, so He will inform them of what they did. [Quran, chapter-6, Verse-108]

What is the meaning of Wasat?

In an Arabic dictionary, the term Wasat has three meanings. The three meanings are: to be moderate, to be in the middle, and to be the best. Therefore, when Allaah Subhaanahu wa Ta`aala describes the Muslim Ummah as a nation that is Wasat, Allaah means that we are moderate, we are an Ummah that is in the middle, and that we are the best nation.

Atawasoot in an Islamic sense means that the Muslim should try his best to be moderate in all of his affairs, and he should keep away from extreme practices and making extreme statements.

The Importance of Moderation

The best way for a Muslim to behave is in moderation. In trying to explain the importance of moderation, Imaam Ibn Al-Atheer said: "Every good manner has two extreme and bad sides. For example, generosity, a good and moderate behavior, comes between two bad behaviors, on one side stinginess and on other side overspending. Braveness, another good and moderate behavior, comes between two bad behaviors on one side cowardness and on other side carelessness. So humans have been ordered to avoid all bad behaviors; by staying away from two bad behaviors, a person will be exactly in the middle which is the farthest point from each extreme."
Muslims must be Moderates: The Ummah of Moderation, an excellent article brought to you by Bihar Anjuman, the largest online group from Bihar or Jharkhand
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Old 01-10-2016, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Disagree completely
The Qur'an is not a Law book. It is a book of guidance.
In this case, you are putting words into Allah's mouth and interpreting the Quran wrongly on behalf of Allah.


I did not say the Quran is a Law book. I stated the Quran contain various elements, i.e. reminders from Allah, good news, guidance, commands, orders, laws, advice, threats, fears, violence, how to marry your adopted son's wife, etc.
Note I did not say the Quran is solely a 'Law book' or a 'book of commands,' I wonder what is next you will invent and put words into my mouth.


Note the main meaning of what is 'Law';
Law = the principles and regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable to its people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and policies recognized and enforced by judicial decision.
Law | Define Law at Dictionary.com
Obviously there are elements within the 6,236 verses of the Quran that satisfy the meaning above to qualify them to be regarded as Laws, i.e. Laws of Allah which are enforceable and to be used for judicial decision on Judgment Day in Allah's court in the hereafter.


The Laws of Allah in the Quran are part of the terms and conditions of the covenant.
Muslims who do not comply with the Laws of Allah will be judged and punished and torture in Hell eternally, etc. in accordance to the severity of the sin.
Surely you cannot dispute this point.


You are totally wrong in asserting the Quran is a "book of guidance."


Quote:
The guidance is give in the form of examples and revelations of what to expect in the afterlife. It is also a condensed summary of past scripture. It also tells us some of the Attributes of Allaah(swt)
I say again you are totally wrong in this case.
There are guidance in the Quran but what is critical is the covenant made with Allah with its terms and conditions, i.e. Laws, commands, policies, principles, etc.
Non-compliance with the above Laws, commands, policies and principles by any Muslim will incur Allah's wrath and punishments depending on the severity of the sin.

Quote:
The covenant we have with Allaah(swt) is that we will worship him alone. To include the Qur'an as a Rule Book of Islam complicates the covenenant of simply "Worshiping Allaah(swt) alone.
I suggest you reread and refresh on all the 6,236 verses of the Quran in its whole context.
"Worshipping Allah alone" is merely one of the main term of the covenant.

Note in 33:23 where some fulfill their vows with their life, proved "Worshipping Allah alone" is not the sole term of the covenant.
There are a full set of terms and conditions in the Quran. Suggest you reread the whole and refresh on the Quran again.

Note a covenant is a theological agreement or contract and in the context of Islam, it contain a set of terms and conditions especially where it cover one's way of life.


Quote:
If a person were to adhere to the Qur'an alone, they would not be performing Islam. One does not join Islam, one performs Islam.

Part of the guidance found in the Qur'an is that we are to keep our performance of Islam simple.The Qur'an does not call for a complex covenant filled with rules and laws. We are to simply worship Allaah(swt), no one or anything else.
The Quran is the sole source of Allah's words and message to Muslims.
The Quran itself assert it is perfect and complete. [Are you disputing Allah's word on this point?]


The Quran is the sole authority of Islam and no where else. There is a complete set of principles in the Quran to enable one to be a complete Muslim.
Obviously the principles need to be expounded and all details and actions to be performed need to be in accordance to the principles.


The Quran itself has detail instructions beside the principles, and where there are no detailed procedures Muslims can establish their own or rely on Islamic scholars' Hadiths, Madhab, Sira, guides, etc.
For example, the Quran stated certain women [not child or old hags] must cover their bosom and that is a sufficient detailed instruction.
These detailed procedures must be aligned [with best effort] with the principles in the Quran, and ultimately only Allah will judge a Muslim's deeds on Judgment Day.


Obviously the Quran need not state, "this is a covenant with this terms and conditions specifically."
The covenant with Allah in the Quran and Islam is a default and imperative.


If you read the Quran, the context of the covenant is very glaring with Allah stating his promises and then the obligations of a Muslim to gain what is promised by Allah.
Note the term "covenant" is mentioned 51 times in the Quran [Pickthall], e.g. [mine]
2:40 O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I [Allah] shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant, and fear Me.


16:91 Fulfil the covenant of Allah when ye have covenanted, and break not your oaths after the asseveration [affirm positively] of them, and after ye have made Allah surety over you. Lo! Allah knoweth what ye do.


33:23 Of the believers are men who are true to that which they covenanted with Allah. Some of them have paid their vow by death (in battle), and some of them still are waiting; and they have not altered in the least;


I feel embarrass that I have to show you the above especially when you are supposedly an expert in the Quran and its message.


Note 33:23 and the special mention of 'paid their vow by death' motivate SOME Muslims to sacrifice their life by suicide bombing in the cause of Allah. If 'paid their vow' is not a term of a covenant, then what is it?


I [with humility] suggest you reread the 51 verses with the term 'covenant' and reflect deeply and objectively on their actual contexts and you will come to understand what I have been asserting regarding 'covenant' is correct.


If one want to be serious Muslim must understand [as men of understanding] the above concept of the covenant in the Quran. Otherwise that Muslim is lost and may not meet Allah's expectation on Judgment Day.

Last edited by Continuum; 01-10-2016 at 08:25 PM..
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Old 01-10-2016, 09:16 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In this case, you are putting words into Allah's mouth and interpreting the Quran wrongly on behalf of Allah.


I did not say the Quran is a Law book. I stated the Quran contain various elements, i.e. reminders from Allah, good news, guidance, commands, orders, laws, advice, threats, fears, violence, how to marry your adopted son's wife, etc.
Note I did not say the Quran is solely a 'Law book' or a 'book of commands,' I wonder what is next you will invent and put words into my mouth.


Note the main meaning of what is 'Law';
Law = the principles and regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable to its people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and policies recognized and enforced by judicial decision.
Law | Define Law at Dictionary.com
Obviously there are elements within the 6,236 verses of the Quran that satisfy the meaning above to qualify them to be regarded as Laws, i.e. Laws of Allah which are enforceable and to be used for judicial decision on Judgment Day in Allah's court in the hereafter.


The Laws of Allah in the Quran are part of the terms and conditions of the covenant.
Muslims who do not comply with the Laws of Allah will be judged and punished and torture in Hell eternally, etc. in accordance to the severity of the sin.
Surely you cannot dispute this point.


You are totally wrong in asserting the Quran is a "book of guidance."


I say again you are totally wrong in this case.
There are guidance in the Quran but what is critical is the covenant made with Allah with its terms and conditions, i.e. Laws, commands, policies, principles, etc.
Non-compliance with the above Laws, commands, policies and principles by any Muslim will incur Allah's wrath and punishments depending on the severity of the sin.

I suggest you reread and refresh on all the 6,236 verses of the Quran in its whole context.
"Worshipping Allah alone" is merely one of the main term of the covenant.

Note in 33:23 where some fulfill their vows with their life, proved "Worshipping Allah alone" is not the sole term of the covenant.
There are a full set of terms and conditions in the Quran. Suggest you reread the whole and refresh on the Quran again.

Note a covenant is a theological agreement or contract and in the context of Islam, it contain a set of terms and conditions especially where it cover one's way of life.


The Quran is the sole source of Allah's words and message to Muslims.
The Quran itself assert it is perfect and complete. [Are you disputing Allah's word on this point?]


The Quran is the sole authority of Islam and no where else. There is a complete set of principles in the Quran to enable one to be a complete Muslim.
Obviously the principles need to be expounded and all details and actions to be performed need to be in accordance to the principles.


The Quran itself has detail instructions beside the principles, and where there are no detailed procedures Muslims can establish their own or rely on Islamic scholars' Hadiths, Madhab, Sira, guides, etc.
For example, the Quran stated certain women [not child or old hags] must cover their bosom and that is a sufficient detailed instruction.
These detailed procedures must be aligned [with best effort] with the principles in the Quran, and ultimately only Allah will judge a Muslim's deeds on Judgment Day.


Obviously the Quran need not state, "this is a covenant with this terms and conditions specifically."
The covenant with Allah in the Quran and Islam is a default and imperative.


If you read the Quran, the context of the covenant is very glaring with Allah stating his promises and then the obligations of a Muslim to gain what is promised by Allah.
Note the term "covenant" is mentioned 51 times in the Quran [Pickthall], e.g. [mine]
2:40 O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I [Allah] shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant, and fear Me.


16:91 Fulfil the covenant of Allah when ye have covenanted, and break not your oaths after the asseveration [affirm positively] of them, and after ye have made Allah surety over you. Lo! Allah knoweth what ye do.


33:23 Of the believers are men who are true to that which they covenanted with Allah. Some of them have paid their vow by death (in battle), and some of them still are waiting; and they have not altered in the least;


I feel embarrass that I have to show you the above especially when you are supposedly an expert in the Quran and its message.


Note 33:23 and the special mention of 'paid their vow by death' motivate SOME Muslims to sacrifice their life by suicide bombing in the cause of Allah. If 'paid their vow' is not a term of a covenant, then what is it?


I [with humility] suggest you reread the 51 verses with the term 'covenant' and reflect deeply and objectively on their actual contexts and you will come to understand what I have been asserting regarding 'covenant' is correct.


If one want to be serious Muslim must understand [as men of understanding] the above concept of the covenant in the Quran. Otherwise that Muslim is lost and may not meet Allah's expectation on Judgment Day.
I am a little familiar with the 51 verses, in Arabic. I seldom read it in English. In nearly everyone of those 51 ayyats the word being translated as covenant is Ahd. Which is a rather complex word with numerous meanings. Many of the meanings relating to time as it can mean period, era, epoch etc but it also can be translated as
Pledge , mortgage , promise , commitment , covenant or guarantee

Covenant being rather weak however there is no Arabic word that carries the exact same
English definition of Covenant.

Therefore many translators do use the word covenant.
But it is not the true meaning of ahd, which actually is much closer to being a mortgage.
"Worshiping Allaah(saws)alone" is our payment contract (Mortgage) towards our home in Jannah.

The English Translation of Covenant is: covenant definition. Literally, a contract.
In the Bible, an agreement between God and his people, in which God makes promises to his
people and, usually, requires certain conduct from them. In the Old Testament, God made
agreements with Noah, Abraham, and Moses.

In that concept we do not have a covenent with Allaah(swt), we have an agreement (Mortgage contract)
to worship only Allaah(swt) and exchange Allaah(swt) has stated He will make it possible for us to enter heaven.

This is my opinion based upon nearly 50 years of studying Islam, 40 of those years as a non-Muslim who
believed Islam promoted evil.I alone am responsible for my words. I can only say they are the result of a sincere
and constant study of Islam and subject to change when a Muslim scholar points out my errors and backs them up with
fatwa and tafsir.
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Old 01-10-2016, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am a little familiar with the 51 verses, in Arabic. I seldom read it in English. In nearly everyone of those 51 ayyats the word being translated as covenant is Ahd. Which is a rather complex word with numerous meanings. Many of the meanings relating to time as it can mean period, era, epoch etc but it also can be translated as
Pledge , mortgage , promise , commitment , covenant or guarantee

Covenant being rather weak however there is no Arabic word that carries the exact same
English definition of Covenant.

Therefore many translators do use the word covenant.
But it is not the true meaning of ahd, which actually is much closer to being a mortgage.
"Worshiping Allaah(saws)alone" is our payment contract (Mortgage) towards our home in Jannah.

The English Translation of Covenant is: covenant definition. Literally, a contract.
In the Bible, an agreement between God and his people, in which God makes promises to his
people and, usually, requires certain conduct from them. In the Old Testament, God made
agreements with Noah, Abraham, and Moses.

In that concept we do not have a covenent with Allaah(swt), we have an agreement (Mortgage contract)
to worship only Allaah(swt) and exchange Allaah(swt) has stated He will make it possible for us to enter heaven.

This is my opinion based upon nearly 50 years of studying Islam, 40 of those years as a non-Muslim who
believed Islam promoted evil.I alone am responsible for my words. I can only say they are the result of a sincere
and constant study of Islam and subject to change when a Muslim scholar points out my errors and backs them up with fatwa and tafsir.
Whatever the translation related to 'ahd' the words are secondary. What is primary is the intended meaning within the contexts which can be easily inferred and extracted from the example of verses I listed plus the other 48 verses.
2:40 O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I [Allah] shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant, and fear Me.

16:91 Fulfil the covenant of Allah when ye have covenanted, and break not your oaths after the asseveration [affirm positively] of them, and after ye have made Allah surety over you. Lo! Allah knoweth what ye do.

33:23 Of the believers are men who are true to that which they covenanted with Allah. Some of them have paid their vow by death (in battle), and some of them still are waiting; and they have not altered in the least;
Read the above again, note the following elements;
-'fulfill your covenant, I[Allah] shall fulfill my covenant,
-break not your oaths after the asseveration [affirm positively] of them
-covenanted with Allah. Some of them have paid their vow by death


Based on the above elements and the contexts in the other 48 verses related to covenant, it is very obvious is the term 'covenant' [give it whatever Arabic label you want, 'adh' 'dha' 'xyz'] refer to the universal 'agreement' between at least two parties that is common within humanity since humans were endowed with conscious self-awareness.


This basic 'agreement' [implied or explicit] is generic and have a long list of synonyms depending on the circumstances [e.g. covenant in the theological context].
Contract Synonyms, Contract Antonyms | Thesaurus.com
Covenant Synonyms, Covenant Antonyms | Thesaurus.com


The basic agreement is a generic process between humans and they have the same common properties, i.e.
1. purpose of the agreement
2. who are the parties involved
3. Terms, conditions, clauses, resultants, penalties,
4. Signature, witness
5. Appendixes [explanatory and not part of the agreement].


There is a specific field of Law to deal with the principles of the above, i.e. "Law of Contracts" which I am very familiar with.


Since the basis and principles of agreement [contracts] is so generic all humans [note the basic gentlemen agreement, the handshake basis, etc.], there should be no issue regardless of what language we use to describe it.
Therefore your running to the excuse of 'you don't understand Arabic' is useless.

I believe the concept of agreement is so basic that it even exists implicitly between a man and his dog.

I have read the 6,236 verses of the Quran with the most detailed scrutiny, and thus there is nothing to be hidden with this concept of agreement in the theological perspective, i.e. the covenant.


Fatwa and Tafsir from Scholars? you bet they are basically emotional & psychological with their own faith [beliefs without proofs and reasons] so one cannot expect most of them to be objective.
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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While all Muslims have an adh with Allaah(swt)

There is no place in the Qur'an or Ahadith that requires a Muslim to Pledge an oath or promise to Allaah(swt) we do not have a covenant with Allaah(swt) in the Christian concept of covenant. We do not have a covenant we have an Ahd.
Our adh is Allaah(swt)'s promise to us, not our promise to Allaah(swt)

Allaah(swt) has promised that all who worship him alone will reach heaven. There is no mention of any requirement to read the Qur'an, know about Muhammad(saws) etc.

A thought to ponder: When Muhammad(saws) accepted Islam He had never heard of the Qur'an nor knew even one word of what it contains. Yet he was still a perfect example of a Muslim. We also know Muhammad(saws) never read the Qur'an Yet, Allaah(swt) had an Ahd with him.

Every person Muslim or non-Muslim atheist or theist will be rewarded by Allaah(swt) for the good they do and punished for the evil they do. But Allaah(swt) also promises (His adh to us) that all who worship him alone will reach heaven.



A person does not join Islam. They choose to perform the action of Islam. Possibly covenant would be an appropriate translation of Ahd, if Islam was something we joined.
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Old 01-11-2016, 10:52 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While all Muslims have an adh with Allaah(swt)

There is no place in the Qur'an or Ahadith that requires a Muslim to Pledge an oath or promise to Allaah(swt) we do not have a covenant with Allaah(swt) in the Christian concept of covenant. We do not have a covenant we have an Ahd.
Our adh is Allaah(swt)'s promise to us, not our promise to Allaah(swt)

Allaah(swt) has promised that all who worship him alone will reach heaven. There is no mention of any requirement to read the Qur'an, know about Muhammad(saws) etc.
As usual you are playing with 'forms' & words and not focusing on the 'substance' or essence.


Here are the sample of verses again;
2:40 O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you, and fulfil your (part of the) covenant, I [Allah] shall fulfil My (part of the) covenant, and fear Me.

16:91 Fulfil the covenant of Allah when ye have covenanted, and break not your oaths after the asseveration [affirm positively] of them, and after ye have made Allah surety over you. Lo! Allah knoweth what ye do.

33:23 Of the believers are men who are true to that which they covenanted with Allah. Some of them have paid their vow by death (in battle), and some of them still are waiting; and they have not altered in the least;
"not our promise to Allah"
In an agreement each party has obligations which can be 'promises,' oaths, vows, and the likes from each party.
Most of the term 'promise' relate to Allah, some to Satan and one to infidels but contractual obligations on the part of the Muslims is expressed in other manner, e.g. 2:40 'fulfi your [part of the] the covenant, 16:91 -'break not your oaths after affirming them, 33:23 - paid their vow.
As in 2:40 Allah did not use the term 'promise' [100+ times in the Quran] but stated 'I[Allah] will fulfill {my part} of the covenant..]
Surely this is very basic and easily understood by any average person but it is unfortunate that you [& many Muslims] denial this truth due to psychological desperations.


"There is no mention of any requirement to read the Qur'an, know about Muhammad(saws) etc."
This is common sense and implied in the many verses in the Quran itself, i.e.
The Quran is perfected and final.
The Quran is in Arabic which will be easy for the Arabs to understand.
The Quran mentioned messengers are always from the local so people will know and understand him.

Quote:
A thought to ponder: When Muhammad(saws) accepted Islam He had never heard of the Qur'an nor knew even one word of what it contains. Yet he was still a perfect example of a Muslim. We also know Muhammad(saws) never read the Qur'an Yet, Allaah(swt) had an Ahd with him.

Every person Muslim or non-Muslim atheist or theist will be rewarded by Allaah(swt) for the good they do and punished for the evil they do. But Allaah(swt) also promises (His adh to us) that all who worship him alone will reach heaven.
There is no specific verse in the Quran that indicate when Muhammad became a Muslim. So there is no question of when Muhammad accepted Islam like what other Muslims are supposed to do, e.g. recite the Sahada.
It is implied when Allah first appear to Muhammad [being chosen & special] he is by default a Muslim by Allah's will, i.e. from
96:1 Read! In the name of thy Lord who createth, ...


As per the Quran;
When Muhammad recited 96:1 it is common sense he knew at least one word of the Quran from then on and the full Quran after 23 years.
Muhammad knew the full Quran was with Allah and understood it was to be delivered by chapters over 23 years.
[Btw, in reality God do not exists and the Quran was authored by a person -Muhammad- or a group of men in the 7th century].

Muhammad is the perfect example of a Muslim because he was the one who wrote the Quran and lay down his own rules in accordance to his own behaviors. This is why Muhammad is not the perfect moral person.


Note the Quran was already perfected and completed by Allah long long ago and delivered to prophets and people of the past before Muhammad.
Therefore when Muhammad was chosen as the messenger, there was an implied agreement [coveant, ahd] between him and Allah based on the Quran in Allah's hands. The terms and conditions are to be delivered to Muhammad over 23 years and thus fully binding therefrom.
In principle, this is the way how the covenant was processed with Muhammad. It is weird because all these are illusory, fantasies and false.


Show me a verse in the Quran where it is stated non-Muslims will go the Paradise [with virgins] and will not go to Hell and be burnt in the eternal fire?


Quote:
A person does not join Islam. They choose to perform the action of Islam. Possibly covenant would be an appropriate translation of Ahd, if Islam was something we joined.
You are putting words and creating straw man for me. I did not say nor am I arguing that a person must join Islam.


A Muslim is an adherent/believer of Islam by explicit or implicit means.
A child born to Muslims parent are by default a Muslim, there is no question of joining at all.
A person who want to convert to be a Muslim generally declared the Sahada and that implied entering into a covenant with Allah.
The covenant is between Allah and the individual Muslim. As such there is no question of 'joining' or be a member of a group.


A Muslim may subsequent 'join' a group, e.g. a School, a Madhab, a sect and the likes for independent guidance but these processes are secondary to being a Muslim and independent from the covenant a Muslim had made with Allah.


"Performing Islam" is another of your misleading term.
As a Muslim who had made a specific covenant with Allah, a Muslim must carry of the obligations [terms and conditions] of the specific covenant which is stipulated in the Quran and no where else.


Once a Muslim has entered into a covenant to reap the promises given by Allah as in the Quran, the Muslim must comply with all applicable terms and conditions as in the Quran.
Ignorance of the relevant terms and conditions is no excuse.
This is why a Muslim must read the Quran to know the terms and conditions expected of him or seek guidance from those men of understanding [the experts and scholars who know the full Quran].


As for terms and conditions it does not mean a Muslim must comply 100% but there are various categories and degrees of compliance as explain in various posts above, e.g. the imperative, the obligatory, the recommended, etc.

Last edited by Continuum; 01-11-2016 at 11:10 PM..
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