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Old 01-17-2016, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Since Allah is everywhere, East, West and nearer to one's jugular vein a Muslims should be able face Allah anywhere.
That Muslims must face the Kaabah do represent a central focal point but I believe the main purpose is this in 2:143 [mine]
2:143 ...... And We appointed the qiblah [in Jerusalem] which ye [Muslims] formerly observed only that We might know him [Muslim] who followeth the messenger, [to differentiate] from him [the infidel] who turneth on his heels [from the faith]. .....
I believe the purpose of the Kaabah in Mecca is the same as what was intended for the Kaabah in Jerusalem.
Would you dispute the above?


Allah did not specifically said 5 times in the Quran. So the 5 times by later scholars are not based on Allah's own words but invented by humans thus carry no divine authority in Islam. The scholars are putting words into Allah's mouth thus in a way is corrupting the Quran as what the Jews and Christians were accused of.
Agree?

Within all humans there is the generic religious and spiritual system. Prayers in various forms are element of this system.


The problem here is Muslims [you included in this case] have been brainwashed with a sense of false arrogance to think their religions is superior over all other religions and spirituality, thus the Muslims prayers [proudly differentiated as Salat] is special and different.


I suggest you brush up on anthropology and the generic topic of 'prayer,'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer


I understand the Muslims concept of 'Dua' [asking for favors, etc.] is the same of what Christians and others are supplicating [as favors from God] is generally recognized as prayers.
If you study this general topic of 'prayer' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer, one will note it cover a very wide topic where the Islamic Salat and its 'Dua' are various forms of the generic prayer.


Prayers by Primitives
Some anthropologists believed humans have been performing 'prayers' long long time ago before there were organized religions. So there is nothing special with the Islamic 'Salat.'


Neuroscientifical Basis
Neuroscientists have studied the common neural mechanics of 'prayers'.
One scientific movement attempts to track the physical effects of prayer through neuroscience. Leaders in this movement include Andrew Newberg, an Associate Professor at the University of Pennsylvania. In Newberg's brain scans, monks, priests, nuns and gurus alike have exceptionally focused attention and compassion sites. -wiki
The Muslim Prayer a Net-Liability to the Individual and Humanity
I believe while the Muslims 'Salat' [one form of Islam's prayers] enable positive effects to the individual Muslim, the overall effect is a net-negative to the individual and humanity.


Why?
1. The number of times [cost in term of time and preparation] a Muslims have to pray on a daily basis outweigh the little benefits of the Salat, especially in a work situation.


2. The repetition of the Al Fatiha subliminally brainwash the individual and group of Muslims with certain elements of evil, i.e. us versus them, anger, 'hatred' 'arrogance' against Jews, Christians and non-Muslims.


Note Al Fatiha 1:-6-7 [mine]
1:6. Show us the Straight Path, 7 - The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not (the path) of those [Jews - Infidels] who earn Thine anger nor of those [Christians -Infidels] who astray.
The above verses differentiate the paths of the Jews and Christians as inferior and the emotions of anger and condemnation is invoked in the individual Muslims.
The above verses alone may not trigger 'hatred' but when read in the context of the whole Quran's tons of evil laden verses against Jews, Christians and infidels, then it become significant and active in the mind of SOME vulnerable Muslims.


Imagine the impact of these 'us versus them' verses of 'hatred' and contempt that are repeated in the mind of Muslims on a daily basis, 5 times a day and within each rakka [number of times depending on different Madhabs].


In addition, the 'hatred' of non-Muslims within this element of the 'Salat' is usually 'pumped' up by the clergy [who read the Quran day in day out] on Friday prayers and elsewhere.


It is true 80% of the 1.5 billion Muslims will not be influenced by the evil elements but if only 20% [conservatively] are vulnerable to it, then we have a pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims who are ready to strike at non-Muslims in whatever ways they think is sanctioned by Allah.


For a start, verse 1:6-7 must be removed from the daily Salat because they have subliminal malignant evil potentials on the minority of vulnerable minds.

While the 20% is essentially a theoretical number based upon the concept of a perfect Bell curve, the Bell curve is not the norm, it is what would be the perfect center most aspect of Standard deviation. In life the curves are skewed. In courses of statistical analysis it is pointed out that if ones results result in a true bell curve there is strong probability the raw data was manipulated.

While it is true that all groups of people do contain those that are evil prone, the percentages will differ in various societies. For example Violent crimes vary considerably among nations.

VIOLENCE DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY

If one were to judge violence by the murder per-capita rate, the Muslim Nations are mostly among the lower end of the scale.

. VIOLENCE DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY

Looking at the map it seems the Tropical nations are the most violent with violence decreasing in the colder climates. Possibly weather has more to do with violence than religion.

As for 1:6-7 it would take a corrupted interpretation to consider that to subliminal malignant evil.

The Actual Surah is not speaking of any specific group. It is only some interpreters that have added in parenteses Jews and Christians.

The non-interpreted original simply refers to all people that have gone astray and asking that we our self do not go astray.

The Surah while one of the later ones started was actually the first surah completed. Although that is not why it is numbered one. It is numbered one because it is the most important and basically should be read and understood before reading any other Surat. In fact we are to always read al-Fatiha anytime we open the Qur'an as it is the full message of the Qur'an and the remainder of the Qur'an simply giving the reason for al-Fatiha.

The Qur'an is not an instruction book. It is a guide to help us understand Islam. How to perform Islam comes from the teachings of Muhammad(saws) not the Qur'an. The Ahadith explain why we have 5 Salah and not 5,000 or any other number.

No the world is not going to end and we are not condemned to Hellfire if we are lax and sometimes fail to say the 5 or say them at the wrong times.
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Old 01-17-2016, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While the 20% is essentially a theoretical number based upon the concept of a perfect Bell curve, the Bell curve is not the norm, it is what would be the perfect center most aspect of Standard deviation. In life the curves are skewed. In courses of statistical analysis it is pointed out that if ones results result in a true bell curve there is strong probability the raw data was manipulated.
By default of rationality there is no Perfection in the real practical world. However most of the variables in general obey the Laws of the Bell Curve and skewness are the exceptions which can be easily explained.
In the case of Muslims and Islam we are dealing with a large population of 1.5 billion so the margin of error is very slim.


My point of referring to the Bell Curve is to highlight the principle 'for every positive, there are equal negatives extending to the most extremes.' Therefore based on nature and norms there will good and evil prone Muslims along a continuum of % of the Bell Curve.


The 20% is not extracted based on its % of the Standard Deviation [sigma] but based on my best approximation of reality. The principle applicable to any large group of people is for every 20% of the best and good Muslims there will naturally be another 20% of the worst and evil prone Muslims.
My guess is very conservative as you will note from the various polls more than 20% of Muslims are very inclined to the negative aspects of Islam and Muslims' attitude.


My main points are;
1. Re Bell Curve, for every group of humans, in this case Muslims, there are a % [estimated 20%] of evil prone Muslims who are vulnerable to be influenced by subliminal evil laden messages from anywhere.
2. There exists a significant amount of evil laden elements in the Quran [the core of Islam].
3. The natural existence 1 [20% evil prone Muslims] and the presence of evil laden elements in the Quran facilitate the manifestations of terrible Islamic evils and violence around the world.




Quote:
While it is true that all groups of people do contain those that are evil prone, the percentages will differ in various societies. For example Violent crimes vary considerably among nations.

VIOLENCE DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY

If one were to judge violence by the murder per-capita rate, the Muslim Nations are mostly among the lower end of the scale.

. VIOLENCE DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY

Looking at the map it seems the Tropical nations are the most violent with violence decreasing in the colder climates. Possibly weather has more to do with violence than religion.
As I have always mentioned humanity must deal with ALL terrible evils and violence from wherever they originate. To deal with these terrible evils effectively we need to analyze them into various categories. One such category is by 'Country' and temperature, etc.
However we also need to analyze the evils and violence by other categories on a global basis in terms of race, religion, and the likes.


The critical point is as a matter of protocol we need to stick to topic which in this case in 'Religion & its Evil Manifestations.'
What I have done is to establish the appropriate hypothesis and prove it with evidences which I have done.
The conclusion is; Islam is inherently both good and evil. It evil element influence evil prone Muslims from the natural potential pool of 20% of evil prone Muslims [300 million] to commit terrible evils and violence.
Since the hypothesis is proven, we should then accept it and deal with it accordingly to find preventive measures to eliminate/reduce that source of evils and violence.




Quote:
As for 1:6-7 it would take a corrupted interpretation to consider that to subliminal malignant evil.

The Actual Surah is not speaking of any specific group. It is only some interpreters that have added in parenteses Jews and Christians.

The non-interpreted original simply refers to all people that have gone astray and asking that we our self do not go astray.

The Surah while one of the later ones started was actually the first surah completed. Although that is not why it is numbered one. It is numbered one because it is the most important and basically should be read and understood before reading any other Surat. In fact we are to always read al-Fatiha anytime we open the Qur'an as it is the full message of the Qur'an and the remainder of the Qur'an simply giving the reason for al-Fatiha.
A correction to my earlier point: 1:7 is the malignant verse which should be eliminated and 1:6 can be retained.


Your deflection of 1:7 is due to your inoculation theory driven by emotional and psychological biasness. As usual we need to interpret Chapter 1:1-7 in the whole context of the Quran, the whole of Islam and reality as it was when the Chapter came about.


I did not imply the malignant 1:7 by itself will drive Muslims to commit evil and violence.
Based on Noldeke Chronological order of the chapters of the Quran, I am also making my own adjustments to the Chronology of the Quran.


I believe Chapter 1 - Al Fatiha is a summary of the Mecca phase and thus would be the first chapter of the Medinian verses follow by Chapter 2 and ending with Chapter 9 or 110.
The point of Muhammad's anger [abhorrence] with the Jews and condemning the Christians as going astray is very obvious throughout the Mecca Phased of the Quran.


Muhammad was very angry with the Jews for omitting him [as the prophesized messenger] from their book, thus accused them of corrupting the holy texts. If the Jews has agreed and accepted him it would have been an easier path for Muhammad to be a messenger of God.
Muhammad condemned the Christians as astray for believing in Jesus as son of God and not recognizing his as the messenger [Ahmed in the Bible].
All throughout the Meccan phase of the Quran, Muhammad was very angry with the Jews, Christians, the Meccan and other idolators who do not give any recognition to his message. The non-Muslims mocked Muhammad after he insulted their religions. The kuffar [infidels] were condemned with the worst kind of derogatory terms and dehumanized like a piece of sh:t.
Such terrible condemnation and dehumanizing is represented by verse 1:7 in All Fatiha.


Frankly there is no need to include 1:7 [the evil of us versus them, condemnation of 'them'] at all if the Quran is a matured spiritual and religious texts. If the holy texts by itself is good it will naturally promote progress and spiritual growth.
"There is no need to blow the candle of others to shine one's own" [only the immature do this].

But Muhammad was so emotionally and psychological effected with anger that he could not resist adding verse 1:7 to condemn the Jews and Christians.


Btw, I presume you are aware of the danger of subliminal messages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subliminal_stimuli
I suggest you read this point so that you understand what I am trying to arrive at with 1:7 and its related verses from the whole of the Quran
Subliminal stimuli (/sʌbˈlɪmɨnəl/; literally "below threshold"), contrary to supraliminal stimuli or "above threshold", are any sensory stimuli below an individual's threshold for conscious perception.
A recent review of functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) studies shows that subliminal stimuli activate specific regions of the brain despite participants being unaware.
Visual stimuli may be quickly flashed before an individual can process them, or flashed and then masked, thereby interrupting the processing. Audio stimuli may be played below audible volumes or masked by other stimuli.
There was this case of an advertiser inserting subliminal message, e.g. "drink Coca Cola" in the movies but which not consciously perceive by the audience. The immediate response was suddenly many of the audience went to by Coca Cola. When this was discovered by the authorities, subliminal message adverting were officially banned.


Subliminal Advertising - Influence & Personality Psychology - Psychologist World
Subliminal Perception: Legal Issues
In Australia and Britain, the use of subliminal advertising has been banned with severe consequences for those who disobey the strict laws.


Now verse 1:7 will not trigger any adverse reaction on the conscious level when one read Chapter 1.
However in the Salat verse 1:7 is repeated many times silently by the individual each day and Muslims are exposed to it from various source. In this sense verse 1:7 is transmitted as a subliminal message that will have a negative impact on a Muslim [especially the vulnerable evil prone Muslims from a pool of 300 million Muslims].
Why 1:7 is critical and malignant is when 1:7 is its context with the whole of the Quran with >55% of evil elements in the Quran of driving contempt against non-believers with the angry and martial ethos of Muhammad.


The proof of the above so glaringly evident from the terrible evils and violence from the evil prone Muslims that is happening all around the world.




Quote:
The Qur'an is not an instruction book. It is a guide to help us understand Islam. How to perform Islam comes from the teachings of Muhammad(saws) not the Qur'an. The Ahadith explain why we have 5 Salah and not 5,000 or any other number.

No the world is not going to end and we are not condemned to Hellfire if we are lax and sometimes fail to say the 5 or say them at the wrong times.
Your view that the Quran is a guide to help a Muslim to understand Islam is very wrong and misleading.


To say the Quran is a guide and help a Muslim to understand is to go against the principles of Allah. What is critical are the imperative principles and practices that must be complied. If it is merely a guide, then one can exercise discretions in every aspects, but that is not the case as there are imperative conditions as ordained by Allah in the Quran.


The fact is the Quran is the only and sole source of Allah's words and thus the central representation of Islam. The Quran contain various elements of Islam, i.e. the main Principles [doctrines], terms and conditions of the covenant, guides to rituals, practices, etc. good tidings, reminders, commands, instructions, etc. and whatever is necessary for one to be a Muslim.


In fact it is the Ahadiths which should be the guides and expositions that will help one to understand the practices of Islam. As a guide the Ahadiths do not carry any divine authority. To impute authority on the Ahadiths is blasphemy and corrupting the pure religion of Islam as convey by Allah via Gabriel to Muhammad.
As you said, the 5 times is based on the Ahadiths solely as guidance and thus not an imperative. The problem is the majority take the 5 times as a command of Allah via Muhammad and cause all sorts of guilt and manifestation of evils re those who do not comply.


My point is the Salat is one element of the procedure of the generic prayers in any religious and spiritual practices.
Since the Salat ignorantly promote a malignant subliminal message via 1:7, these negative element need to be resolved and corrected.
Muslims need to understand the generic principles of 'prayer' in the spiritual process and take initiatives to advance improve this process [by real neural changes] where possible.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2016, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
By default of rationality there is no Perfection in the real practical world. However most of the variables in general obey the Laws of the Bell Curve and skewness are the exceptions which can be easily explained.
In the case of Muslims and Islam we are dealing with a large population of 1.5 billion so the margin of error is very slim.


My point of referring to the Bell Curve is to highlight the principle 'for every positive, there are equal negatives extending to the most extremes.' Therefore based on nature and norms there will good and evil prone Muslims along a continuum of % of the Bell Curve.


The 20% is not extracted based on its % of the Standard Deviation [sigma] but based on my best approximation of reality. The principle applicable to any large group of people is for every 20% of the best and good Muslims there will naturally be another 20% of the worst and evil prone Muslims.
My guess is very conservative as you will note from the various polls more than 20% of Muslims are very inclined to the negative aspects of Islam and Muslims' attitude.


My main points are;
1. Re Bell Curve, for every group of humans, in this case Muslims, there are a % [estimated 20%] of evil prone Muslims who are vulnerable to be influenced by subliminal evil laden messages from anywhere.
2. There exists a significant amount of evil laden elements in the Quran [the core of Islam].
3. The natural existence 1 [20% evil prone Muslims] and the presence of evil laden elements in the Quran facilitate the manifestations of terrible Islamic evils and violence around the world.




As I have always mentioned humanity must deal with ALL terrible evils and violence from wherever they originate. To deal with these terrible evils effectively we need to analyze them into various categories. One such category is by 'Country' and temperature, etc.
However we also need to analyze the evils and violence by other categories on a global basis in terms of race, religion, and the likes.


The critical point is as a matter of protocol we need to stick to topic which in this case in 'Religion & its Evil Manifestations.'
What I have done is to establish the appropriate hypothesis and prove it with evidences which I have done.
The conclusion is; Islam is inherently both good and evil. It evil element influence evil prone Muslims from the natural potential pool of 20% of evil prone Muslims [300 million] to commit terrible evils and violence.
Since the hypothesis is proven, we should then accept it and deal with it accordingly to find preventive measures to eliminate/reduce that source of evils and violence.




A correction to my earlier point: 1:7 is the malignant verse which should be eliminated and 1:6 can be retained.


Your deflection of 1:7 is due to your inoculation theory driven by emotional and psychological biasness. As usual we need to interpret Chapter 1:1-7 in the whole context of the Quran, the whole of Islam and reality as it was when the Chapter came about.


I did not imply the malignant 1:7 by itself will drive Muslims to commit evil and violence.
Based on Noldeke Chronological order of the chapters of the Quran, I am also making my own adjustments to the Chronology of the Quran.


I believe Chapter 1 - Al Fatiha is a summary of the Mecca phase and thus would be the first chapter of the Medinian verses follow by Chapter 2 and ending with Chapter 9 or 110.
The point of Muhammad's anger [abhorrence] with the Jews and condemning the Christians as going astray is very obvious throughout the Mecca Phased of the Quran.


Muhammad was very angry with the Jews for omitting him [as the prophesized messenger] from their book, thus accused them of corrupting the holy texts. If the Jews has agreed and accepted him it would have been an easier path for Muhammad to be a messenger of God.
Muhammad condemned the Christians as astray for believing in Jesus as son of God and not recognizing his as the messenger [Ahmed in the Bible].
All throughout the Meccan phase of the Quran, Muhammad was very angry with the Jews, Christians, the Meccan and other idolators who do not give any recognition to his message. The non-Muslims mocked Muhammad after he insulted their religions. The kuffar [infidels] were condemned with the worst kind of derogatory terms and dehumanized like a piece of sh:t.
Such terrible condemnation and dehumanizing is represented by verse 1:7 in All Fatiha.


Frankly there is no need to include 1:7 [the evil of us versus them, condemnation of 'them'] at all if the Quran is a matured spiritual and religious texts. If the holy texts by itself is good it will naturally promote progress and spiritual growth.
"There is no need to blow the candle of others to shine one's own" [only the immature do this].

But Muhammad was so emotionally and psychological effected with anger that he could not resist adding verse 1:7 to condemn the Jews and Christians.


Btw, I presume you are aware of the danger of subliminal messages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subliminal_stimuli
I suggest you read this point so that you understand what I am trying to arrive at with 1:7 and its related verses from the whole of the Quran
Subliminal stimuli (/sʌbˈlɪmɨnəl/; literally "below threshold"), contrary to supraliminal stimuli or "above threshold", are any sensory stimuli below an individual's threshold for conscious perception.
A recent review of functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) studies shows that subliminal stimuli activate specific regions of the brain despite participants being unaware.
Visual stimuli may be quickly flashed before an individual can process them, or flashed and then masked, thereby interrupting the processing. Audio stimuli may be played below audible volumes or masked by other stimuli.
There was this case of an advertiser inserting subliminal message, e.g. "drink Coca Cola" in the movies but which not consciously perceive by the audience. The immediate response was suddenly many of the audience went to by Coca Cola. When this was discovered by the authorities, subliminal message adverting were officially banned.


Subliminal Advertising - Influence & Personality Psychology - Psychologist World
Subliminal Perception: Legal Issues
In Australia and Britain, the use of subliminal advertising has been banned with severe consequences for those who disobey the strict laws.


Now verse 1:7 will not trigger any adverse reaction on the conscious level when one read Chapter 1.
However in the Salat verse 1:7 is repeated many times silently by the individual each day and Muslims are exposed to it from various source. In this sense verse 1:7 is transmitted as a subliminal message that will have a negative impact on a Muslim [especially the vulnerable evil prone Muslims from a pool of 300 million Muslims].
Why 1:7 is critical and malignant is when 1:7 is its context with the whole of the Quran with >55% of evil elements in the Quran of driving contempt against non-believers with the angry and martial ethos of Muhammad.


The proof of the above so glaringly evident from the terrible evils and violence from the evil prone Muslims that is happening all around the world.




Your view that the Quran is a guide to help a Muslim to understand Islam is very wrong and misleading.


To say the Quran is a guide and help a Muslim to understand is to go against the principles of Allah. What is critical are the imperative principles and practices that must be complied. If it is merely a guide, then one can exercise discretions in every aspects, but that is not the case as there are imperative conditions as ordained by Allah in the Quran.


The fact is the Quran is the only and sole source of Allah's words and thus the central representation of Islam. The Quran contain various elements of Islam, i.e. the main Principles [doctrines], terms and conditions of the covenant, guides to rituals, practices, etc. good tidings, reminders, commands, instructions, etc. and whatever is necessary for one to be a Muslim.


In fact it is the Ahadiths which should be the guides and expositions that will help one to understand the practices of Islam. As a guide the Ahadiths do not carry any divine authority. To impute authority on the Ahadiths is blasphemy and corrupting the pure religion of Islam as convey by Allah via Gabriel to Muhammad.
As you said, the 5 times is based on the Ahadiths solely as guidance and thus not an imperative. The problem is the majority take the 5 times as a command of Allah via Muhammad and cause all sorts of guilt and manifestation of evils re those who do not comply.


My point is the Salat is one element of the procedure of the generic prayers in any religious and spiritual practices.
Since the Salat ignorantly promote a malignant subliminal message via 1:7, these negative element need to be resolved and corrected.
Muslims need to understand the generic principles of 'prayer' in the spiritual process and take initiatives to advance improve this process [by real neural changes] where possible.
The Qur'an is quite specific that we are to take the commands of Muhammad(saws) as being commands from Allaah(swt)

Here I must point to some aspects of the Arabic language and grammar that necessitate the inclusion of 1-7

In Arabic the meaning of a word can and usually will change based upon the following and preceding lines in a dialogue.

Looking at 1-6 and 1-7 together we have:


اهدِنَــــا الصِّرَاطَ المُستَقِيمَ (1:6)

Ihdina alssirata almustaqeema

Guide us the straight way. - 1:6 (Asad)



Al-Fatiha (The Opening) - 1:7
صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنعَمتَ عَلَيهِمْ غَيرِ المَغضُوبِ عَلَيهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّالِّينَ (1:7)

Sirata allatheena anAAamta AAalayhim ghayri almaghdoobi AAalayhim wala alddalleena

The way of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, [3] not of those who have been condemned [by Thee], nor of those who go astray! [4] - 1:7 (Asad)


almustaqeema المُستَقِيمَ has 10 or more meanings, those being:

Straight, upright, right(correct), straightforward, honest, direct, correct, through, erect, stand-up

With out ayyat 7 we do not have the concept of path nor is there any implication that indicates the need of following the one path or even the concept of a single path.

We would have 1-6 being translated as: "Guide us honestly" or "Guide us straightforward". There would be no warning of not to stray.

1-7 is not showing that Muslims are superior to Jews or Christians. It is the simple statement that there is only one path to heaven and if one has been on that path, it does not mean they will stay on it. There are, have been and will be more people that do follow the one path, but stray from it and miss getting to heaven.

Here again I find the translation of Asad to be the better translation, Asad (Leopold Weiss) was a Jewish convert to Islam and was fluent in Hebrew and Arabic. Hebrew is much closer to Qur'anic Arabic than MSA (Mopdern Standard Arabic) and Asad has done the best job of capturing the Qur'anic meaning than any other translator I have read to date.

Currently there are only 2 translations endorsed by Saudi

The Holy Qur'an: Translation and Commentary. By Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali.

The Noble Qur'an in the English Language. By Muhammad Taqi al-Din al-Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan.

My own impression that they do not endorse Asad is because he is a former Jew and the al-Saud family is showing their prejudice.

Although I do not speak MSA (Modern Standard Arabic, the Arabic of modern day Saudi) I can read it and do see much difference between MSA and Qur'anic Arabic. [Off topic side note the Arabic I speak is Darija Marrakesh, (Moroccan Arabic)] However written Arabic is the same world wide, although some words will differ in meaning in each dialect.

Saudi does not speak well of Asad:

Bucking the Saudi Orthodoxy

The Message of the Qur'an. By Muhammad Asad.

Not every translation preaches the Saudi line. Muhammad Asad, for example, presents a rendering that is simple and straightforward.[48] A Jewish convert to Islam, the former Leopold Weiss (1900-1992) sought to depart from the traditional exegetic approaches and reflect independent thought. Asad, an Austrian journalist, was well-versed in the Jewish and Christian scriptures and brought this knowledge to bear in the form of erudite footnotes. Strangely, though, he chose to interpolate material in his translation of chapter 37 to show that the sacrificial son was Ishmael and not Isaac.[49] This is rather unusual, for while most contemporary Muslims opine that Ishmael was the sacrificial son, early exegetes differed on his identity, and as is well known, the Bible clearly states that it was Isaac (Genesis 22:9).[50] Indicative of the desire and drive of Saudi Arabia to impose a Salafi[51] interpretation upon the Muslim world, the kingdom has banned Muhammad's work over some creedal issues. Because the Saudi government subsidizes the publication and distribution of so many translations, the ban has in effect made Asad's translation both expensive and difficult to obtain. Nevertheless, it remains one of the best translations available, both in terms of its comprehensible English and generally knowledgeable annotations.

Assessing English Translations of the Qur'an :: Middle East Quarterly

I do have a Hardbound copy of Asad's translation without commentary and his 6 volume set with His Translation, commentaries, the original Arabic (Photographs from the Uthman Quran) and transliterations.

Asad is the Translator I find to come closest to the meaning of the Qur'anic Arabic. I find the translations approved by Saudi to be supportive of Wahhabi and not in line with Qur'anic Arabic.

Notice there were no English Translations written by Muslims until the Mid 1800s and even today most English translations are by non-Muslim who are often very anti-Islamic and do slant their translation in the least favorable manner possible.
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Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-18-2016, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Qur'an is quite specific that we are to take the commands of Muhammad(saws) as being commands from Allaah(swt)
I don't agree with your point above and it cannot possibly be absolute.


The principle is NOT ALL commands issued by Muhammad are commands related to Allah's principles and messages.
Note as Allah said so, Muhammad is merely a warner, reminder and conveyor of Allah's message.
Therefore to obey Muhammad is to obey whatever matters that are in accordance to the Quran, not any personal whims and fancies of Muhammad within the 23 years.


There would definitely be commands and statements by Muhammad which are expressed on his personal basis in various times which has nothing to do with any voices from Gabriel and Allah.
If Muhammad had commanded his soldiers to bring him food, that cannot be from Allah at all.
Thus whatever Muhammad had commanded or said they are only related to Islam as far as they are in line with the principles and message as in the Quran and no where else.



Quote:
Here I must point to some aspects of the Arabic language and grammar that necessitate the inclusion of 1-7
In Arabic the meaning of a word can and usually will change based upon the following and preceding lines in a dialogue.

Looking at 1-6 and 1-7 together we have:
اهدِنَــــا الصِّرَاطَ المُستَقِيمَ (1:6)
Ihdina alssirata almustaqeema
Guide us the straight way. - 1:6 (Asad)

Al-Fatiha (The Opening) - 1:7
صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنعَمتَ عَلَيهِمْ غَيرِ المَغضُوبِ عَلَيهِمْ وَلاَ الضَّالِّينَ (1:7)
Sirata allatheena anAAamta AAalayhim ghayri almaghdoobi AAalayhim wala alddalleena

The way of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, [3] not of those who have been condemned [by Thee], nor of those who go astray! [4] - 1:7 (Asad)


almustaqeema المُستَقِيمَ has 10 or more meanings, those being:

Straight, upright, right(correct), straightforward, honest, direct, correct, through, erect, stand-up

With out ayyat 7 we do not have the concept of path nor is there any implication that indicates the need of following the one path or even the concept of a single path.

We would have 1-6 being translated as: "Guide us honestly" or "Guide us straightforward". There would be no warning of not to stray.
As I said, Chapter 1 is a sort of intermediate all encompassing summary of the Quran.


Note 1:2 Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, is sufficient to denote Allah is all powerful and repeated many times all over the Quran.
Thus 1:6 Show us the Straight Path is sufficient as a summary sentence to reflect this 'straight path' from an all powerful Lord of the World can be trusted with full faith where the path will be perfect. The details of this is be supported from the various verses all over the Quran where the Quran is asserted by Allah to be perfect, easy to read and follow and is final that promise eternal life in Paradise.


You are merely covering for Muhammad's zealous error when he included 1:7 as an expression of his anger with the Jews and the condemnation of the Christians when they excluded the supposedly prophesy of him from their holy texts.
Again this is fully supported by texts of various incidents in the Quran.


Muhammad was very angry with the Jews and Christians.
However there is totally no necessity to include the malignant element of 1:7 in Chapter 1 which end up as a subliminal message that brainwash Muslims to hate Jews and Christians [plus non-Muslims] multiple times on a daily basis that culminated in real terrible evils and violence by SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims.


Effectively 1:7 must be removed from the Al Fatiha which is repeated by Muslims many times a day in the daily 5 Salat sessions.



Quote:
1-7 is not showing that Muslims are superior to Jews or Christians. It is the simple statement that there is only one path to heaven and if one has been on that path, it does not mean they will stay on it. There are, have been and will be more people that do follow the one path, but stray from it and miss getting to heaven.
Again you are in denial with the inoculation theory.
Literally 1:7 implied there are inferior paths that angered Allah and are condemned as strayed by Allah where Muslims must be warned of.
If there is only one path, 1:6 could have been phrased as;
1:6 Show us your ONLY Straight Path


If Islam has high morality and esteem, there is no need to condemn others - like "blowing the candles of others to shine one's own" which is a very immature move by many who has low self-esteem.


There is no need for a warning in this summary chapter as the ONLY straight path is expressed and repeated all over the Quran, i.e. Islam prevails over all other religions and other religions are condemned, non-believers are killed and their properties are destroyed, etc.


There is no need for 1:7 in Al Fatiha as its inclusion will only bring more harm than good [as a warning] to humanity as proven with the real resulting terrible evils and violence that is committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.

Quote:
Currently there are only 2 translations endorsed by Saudi
The Holy Qur'an: Translation and Commentary. By Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali.
The Noble Qur'an in the English Language. By Muhammad Taqi al-Din al-Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan.
My own impression that they do not endorse Asad is because he is a former Jew and the al-Saud family is showing their prejudice.
Are you implying Asad has a better understanding of Arabic than the Scholars [Hilali-Khan] who wrote the Noble Quran. Surely this Noble Quran would have been peer reviewed by other Arab Scholars before the Saudi Authorities approve it.


It is not because Asad is a former Jew. If the translation is correct within their expectations, they would have agreed with it regardless of who wrote it.


So the Noble Quran reflect more of the truths of Islam rather than Asad's corrupted version with reference to 1:7.
I have read the Quran extensively and deeply and I agree with Hilali-Khan's additional emphasis in parenthesis to 1:7 in their translation. It is so obvious when one take the whole of the Quran and Islam is context.
Note the Saudi represent and has great influence on the majority of Muslims [the Sunni]. Since there is no central authority there is no one who can counter their correct interpretations of 1:7.
I understand the Noble Quran is given free by the Saudi Government to each Muslim who attended the pilgrimage in Mecca.

My point:
1:7 contain malignant evil elements re the primal "us versus them" which can [it fact has already done so] lead to terrible evils in certain circumstances especially when exposed subliminally to evil prone Muslims [a potential pool of 300 million ]
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:39 PM
 
120 posts, read 107,466 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Why must it be 5 prayers a day and not say 3.

It was actually 3 times a day, but We knew you would say why 3 times, why not 5
so We cut it to the chaise and made it 5 accordance to your liking
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Old 01-29-2016, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NABILBB View Post
It was actually 3 times a day, but We knew you would say why 3 times, why not 5
so We cut it to the chaise and made it 5 accordance to your liking
Most Muslims will not agree with you on the 3 times a day salat [stated in the Quran].


If I am not mistaken [??] the name "NABIL" in your nick is from the Ahamadiyyah clan as Nabil Qureshi and Farhan Qureshi.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3lHueRXvh0



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65O2mAZ8CHQ


Btw, I understand the Ahamadiyas focus solely on the 'good' elements of Islam and deliberately steer clear of the inherent evil elements.
Unfortunately the Ahmadiyas who are intrinsically morally good are condemned as false-Muslims by the majority of Muslims, especially the Sunnis.
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Old 01-29-2016, 09:39 AM
 
120 posts, read 107,466 times
Reputation: 86
have a bit of sense of humor dude... don't be boring
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Old 01-29-2016, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't agree with your point above and it cannot possibly be absolute.


The principle is NOT ALL commands issued by Muhammad are commands related to Allah's principles and messages.
Note as Allah said so, Muhammad is merely a warner, reminder and conveyor of Allah's message.
Therefore to obey Muhammad is to obey whatever matters that are in accordance to the Quran, not any personal whims and fancies of Muhammad within the 23 years.


There would definitely be commands and statements by Muhammad which are expressed on his personal basis in various times which has nothing to do with any voices from Gabriel and Allah.
If Muhammad had commanded his soldiers to bring him food, that cannot be from Allah at all.
Thus whatever Muhammad had commanded or said they are only related to Islam as far as they are in line with the principles and message as in the Quran and no where else.




As I said, Chapter 1 is a sort of intermediate all encompassing summary of the Quran.


Note 1:2 Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, is sufficient to denote Allah is all powerful and repeated many times all over the Quran.
Thus 1:6 Show us the Straight Path is sufficient as a summary sentence to reflect this 'straight path' from an all powerful Lord of the World can be trusted with full faith where the path will be perfect. The details of this is be supported from the various verses all over the Quran where the Quran is asserted by Allah to be perfect, easy to read and follow and is final that promise eternal life in Paradise.


You are merely covering for Muhammad's zealous error when he included 1:7 as an expression of his anger with the Jews and the condemnation of the Christians when they excluded the supposedly prophesy of him from their holy texts.
Again this is fully supported by texts of various incidents in the Quran.


Muhammad was very angry with the Jews and Christians.
However there is totally no necessity to include the malignant element of 1:7 in Chapter 1 which end up as a subliminal message that brainwash Muslims to hate Jews and Christians [plus non-Muslims] multiple times on a daily basis that culminated in real terrible evils and violence by SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims.


Effectively 1:7 must be removed from the Al Fatiha which is repeated by Muslims many times a day in the daily 5 Salat sessions.




Again you are in denial with the inoculation theory.
Literally 1:7 implied there are inferior paths that angered Allah and are condemned as strayed by Allah where Muslims must be warned of.
If there is only one path, 1:6 could have been phrased as;
1:6 Show us your ONLY Straight Path


If Islam has high morality and esteem, there is no need to condemn others - like "blowing the candles of others to shine one's own" which is a very immature move by many who has low self-esteem.


There is no need for a warning in this summary chapter as the ONLY straight path is expressed and repeated all over the Quran, i.e. Islam prevails over all other religions and other religions are condemned, non-believers are killed and their properties are destroyed, etc.


There is no need for 1:7 in Al Fatiha as its inclusion will only bring more harm than good [as a warning] to humanity as proven with the real resulting terrible evils and violence that is committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.

Are you implying Asad has a better understanding of Arabic than the Scholars [Hilali-Khan] who wrote the Noble Quran. Surely this Noble Quran would have been peer reviewed by other Arab Scholars before the Saudi Authorities approve it.


It is not because Asad is a former Jew. If the translation is correct within their expectations, they would have agreed with it regardless of who wrote it.


So the Noble Quran reflect more of the truths of Islam rather than Asad's corrupted version with reference to 1:7.
I have read the Quran extensively and deeply and I agree with Hilali-Khan's additional emphasis in parenthesis to 1:7 in their translation. It is so obvious when one take the whole of the Quran and Islam is context.
Note the Saudi represent and has great influence on the majority of Muslims [the Sunni]. Since there is no central authority there is no one who can counter their correct interpretations of 1:7.
I understand the Noble Quran is given free by the Saudi Government to each Muslim who attended the pilgrimage in Mecca.

My point:
1:7 contain malignant evil elements re the primal "us versus them" which can [it fact has already done so] lead to terrible evils in certain circumstances especially when exposed subliminally to evil prone Muslims [a potential pool of 300 million ]
Saudi does not represent Sunni. They are one of only 2 nations that follow the Hambali madhab of Sunni plus the al-Saud family has been deeply influenced by wahhabi. You will find that worldwide many Muslims feel the al-Saud family is illegally occupying Mecca and Madinah as the al-Saud family was exiled frm Hijaz in the late 1800s and were forbidden to ever return until they shed their wahhabi beliefs.

Qur'anic Arabic is not spoken in Saudi they speak MSA. Hebrew is considerably closer to Qur'anic Arabic than MSA is. In order for many Saudis to understand the Qur'an it usually has to be translated to MSA.

The Saudi government not only gives free copies of the "Noble Quran" to pilgrims to Mecca but also to all people world wide who request a copy, including non-Muslims. As we are forbidden to give, sell or even allow non-Muslims to touch a Qur'an (Unless we are certain they understand how to treat and handle it) it has to be obvious the al-Saud family does not consider the "Noble Quran" to be a Qur'an.

I do believe Asad is much closer to the actual translation as he is familiar with the Hebrew counterparts. I may be wrong but I am quite certain his first exposure to Islam would have been through a Hebrew view. While portions of the Quran have been translated into Hebrew in the past, there is a recent effort for a full translation.

Holy Quran* in Hebrew Koran

First Authorized Hebrew Translation of the Qur’an to be Released – Jewlicious THE Jewish Blog

Reading the Quran in Hebrew - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

While it seems to be your belief that 1:7 instills a subliminal disdain for non-Muslims I do not think you will find many if any Muslims that will agree.

Even Maududi who is considered to have been a radical sees it as a plea for guidance.

Quote:
This Surah is in fact a prayer which Allah has taught to all those who want to make a study of His book. It has been placed at the very beginning of the book to teach this lesson to the reader: if you sincerely want to benefit from the Quran, you should offer this prayer to the Lord of the Universe.
This preface is meant to create a strong desire in the heart of the reader to seek guidance from the Lord of the Universe, Who alone can grant it. Thus AL-FATIHAH indirectly teaches that the best thing for a man is to pray for guidance to the straight path, to study the Quran with the mental attitude of a seeker- after-truth and to recognize the fact that the Lord of the Universe is the source of all knowledge. He should, therefore, begin the study of the Quran with a prayer to him for guidance.
From this theme, it becomes clear that the real relation between AL-FATIHAH and the Quran is not that of an introduction to a book but that of a prayer and its answer. AL-FATIHAH is the prayer from the servant and the Quran is the answer from the Master to his prayer. The servant prays to Allah to show him guidance and the Master places the whole of the Quran before him in answer to his prayer, as if to say, "This is the Guidance you begged from Me."
Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #1


Another point that must be addressed. Because of the nature of Qur'anic Arabic without 1:7; 1:6 would have a different meaning.

[SIZE=6]المُستَقِيمَ[/SIZE] is written to rhyme with [SIZE=6]الضَّالِّينَ[/SIZE] the last word in 1:7 Without that particular pronunciation [SIZE=6]المُستَقِيمَ[/SIZE]would carry a different connotation. Arabic words do differ in meaning based upon the pronunciation. The Qur'an is in a very musical style in which the voice is used as a musical instrument. the pronunciation is extremely important which is why the recitations carry greater reliability than the written text. The meaning of a word will change in relation to the word it is intended to rhyme with.
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Old 01-29-2016, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Saudi does not represent Sunni. They are one of only 2 nations that follow the Hambali madhab of Sunni plus the al-Saud family has been deeply influenced by wahhabi. You will find that worldwide many Muslims feel the al-Saud family is illegally occupying Mecca and Madinah as the al-Saud family was exiled frm Hijaz in the late 1800s and were forbidden to ever return until they shed their wahhabi beliefs.
I did not state Saudi represent Sunni. The Saudi Royal Family belong a sect of Sunni, the Wahabis.


Note Sunni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam
I understand wiki is not that credible but I don't think what is written in that article is way off from the truth.

Sunni Islam (/ˈsuːni/ or /ˈsʊni/) is a denomination of Islam which holds that the Islamic prophet Muhammad's first Caliph was his father-in-law Abu Bakr.
Its adherents are referred to in Arabic as ahl as-sunnah wa l-jamāʻah (Arabic: أهل السنة والجماعة‎), "people of the tradition of Muhammad and the consensus of the Ummah" or ahl as-sunnah (Arabic أهل السنة) for short.
Quote:
While it seems to be your belief that 1:7 instills a subliminal disdain for non-Muslims I do not think you will find many if any Muslims that will agree.

Even Maududi who is considered to have been a radical sees it as a plea for guidance.

Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #1
It is obvious Muslims will not agree 1:7 has a malignant subliminal disdain for non-Muslims.
Muslims will naturally [they MUST and HAVE to] will be blind to any thing that negative in the Quran like not seeing the 500 pounds gorilla in the room.


I understand mere reading of 1:7 will not invoke a sense of disdain but when read in the whole contexts of the Quran a sense of 'contempt' and 'hatred' will be subliminally manifest in the minds of Muslims.


Actually it is the evil prone Scholars, clergies, experts of Islam who are most influenced by 1:7 in line with the other evil elements as they read the Quran day in day out and they stoke a greater sense of contempt and hatred within the masses [the evil prone] during their sermons, teachings and writing. This is why many of the terror and rampages by evil Muslims are committed immediately after Friday prayers in many parts of the world.


Thereafter the daily repetitions of 1:7 reinforce greater contempt, disdain, 'hatred' for non-Muslims conditioned by a sense of great primal fear emotions as invoked in the Quran.


Quote:
Another point that must be addressed. Because of the nature of Qur'anic Arabic without 1:7; 1:6 would have a different meaning.

[SIZE=6]المُستَقِيمَ[/SIZE] is written to rhyme with [SIZE=6]الضَّالِّينَ[/SIZE] the last word in 1:7 Without that particular pronunciation [SIZE=6]المُستَقِيمَ[/SIZE]would carry a different connotation. Arabic words do differ in meaning based upon the pronunciation. The Qur'an is in a very musical style in which the voice is used as a musical instrument. the pronunciation is extremely important which is why the recitations carry greater reliability than the written text. The meaning of a word will change in relation to the word it is intended to rhyme with.
If there is a need for rhyming and consistency of musical tone and sound, I am sure there are many alternatives beside introducing elements that can invoke contempt and divisiveness. This is a big moral mistake of Islam which reflects its partly [not wholly] real aggressive and martial ethos.


Since you mentioned, I have read some negative comments, i.e. the need to ensure rhyming with musical tones in the Quran to ensure of good forms has actually distorted the substance of some of the messages. So there is a sacrifice of substance for form which is not a good move especially for a serious matter like religion.
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I did not state Saudi represent Sunni. The Saudi Royal Family belong a sect of Sunni, the Wahabis.


Note Sunni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam
I understand wiki is not that credible but I don't think what is written in that article is way off from the truth.
Sunni Islam (/ˈsuːni/ or /ˈsʊni/) is a denomination of Islam which holds that the Islamic prophet Muhammad's first Caliph was his father-in-law Abu Bakr.
Its adherents are referred to in Arabic as ahl as-sunnah wa l-jamāʻah (Arabic: أهل السنة والجماعة‎), "people of the tradition of Muhammad and the consensus of the Ummah" or ahl as-sunnah (Arabic أهل السنة) for short.
It is obvious Muslims will not agree 1:7 has a malignant subliminal disdain for non-Muslims.
Muslims will naturally [they MUST and HAVE to] will be blind to any thing that negative in the Quran like not seeing the 500 pounds gorilla in the room.


I understand mere reading of 1:7 will not invoke a sense of disdain but when read in the whole contexts of the Quran a sense of 'contempt' and 'hatred' will be subliminally manifest in the minds of Muslims.


Actually it is the evil prone Scholars, clergies, experts of Islam who are most influenced by 1:7 in line with the other evil elements as they read the Quran day in day out and they stoke a greater sense of contempt and hatred within the masses [the evil prone] during their sermons, teachings and writing. This is why many of the terror and rampages by evil Muslims are committed immediately after Friday prayers in many parts of the world.


Thereafter the daily repetitions of 1:7 reinforce greater contempt, disdain, 'hatred' for non-Muslims conditioned by a sense of great primal fear emotions as invoked in the Quran.


If there is a need for rhyming and consistency of musical tone and sound, I am sure there are many alternatives beside introducing elements that can invoke contempt and divisiveness. This is a big moral mistake of Islam which reflects its partly [not wholly] real aggressive and martial ethos.


Since you mentioned, I have read some negative comments, i.e. the need to ensure rhyming with musical tones in the Quran to ensure of good forms has actually distorted the substance of some of the messages. So there is a sacrifice of substance for form which is not a good move especially for a serious matter like religion.
The Qur'an is in the form it was originally revealed in. Any attempt to change the pronunciation of even a single word would have been instantly noticed by the listeners. Each revelation was recited numerous times, enough times that many of the listeners memorized it.

The meaning of the words is what dictated the pronunciation. Part of the miracle is that it resulted in an easily recognized melodious tone. It is the only form of Arabic that can be understood by all Arabic speakers and the only form no one has been able to write even one original sentence in.

The rhythmic quality of the Qur'an (Tajweed) is what distinguishes Qur'anic Arabic from Arabic and gives a partial explanation as to why no one has been able to write an original phrase in it.

It also must be noted that in Arabic the pronunciation of a word changes the meaning of the word. Without hearing the pronunciation of the Qur'an one can not translate it properly. I suspect that many inaccurate translations are the result of trying to translate from the written text. The rhythm is the result of the meaning. During my days of still discovering my vocation I was quite interested in linguistics. The Semitic language family (Phoenician, Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic) is quite unique in that to be understood it has to be heard. One can not learn any of the Semitic languages through written transcripts. The Qur'an only has .less than 1,800 unique words in it's vocabulary, yet over 34,000 different meanings based upon how each word is pronounced. Any ayyat (line) in the Qur'an could have numerous meanings if read as a stand alone line without the Tajweed pronunciation.
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