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Old 02-05-2016, 01:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the Principles of Innoculation theory.
Inoculation Theory was developed by social psychologist William J. McGuire in 1961 to explain more about how attitudes and beliefs change, and more importantly, how to keep original attitudes and beliefs consistent in the face of persuasion attempts. -wiki


The above explanation imply "inoculation theory" is a defense mechanism. It the same with medical inoculation to defend against attacks by pathogens. So you are wrong, "inoculation" theory is a method of defense mechanism.
This typical with all your responses and counters to all my views in my critique of Islam. I have presented rational arguments via the use of intellect, reason, logic, rationality and wisdom, but your counters are defective and insufficient in objectivity.

I am aware there are more than 40++ English translations. The ones I refer to are not the one which are sanctioned by the Catholic Church to 'stop the spread of Islam'.
I am aware of those early one [you mentioned somewhere, by Ross, Sale, etc.


The 40++ translations are sincere attempts by those scholars who read the Arabic Quran to expose the Quran to Muslims and non-Muslims who can read Muslims with the hope of converting them.


This is merely one example and there are many other verses which are anti-Jews.


The fact is this particular verse which is evil laden itself [condemning and dehumanize certain Jews] but in the whole context of the Quran and all the related verses the Jews are generalized to be 'hated' and this is summarized in 1:7.


Obviously by the Principle of the Bell Curve, naturally there will be Jews who are good.
But the Quran do not apply this context but represent the Jews as generally evil and to be hated.
I have given reasons why Muhammad was angry and hated the Jews and this is imputed in the Quran and Islam.
I am not saying ALL Muslims are influenced by this 'hatred' of Muhammad against the Jews.
What is critical here is the existence of such hatred within the ethos of Islam [in part] as supposed endorsed by Allah influence the natural 20% of evil prone Muslims and inspired them to commit terrible evils and violence against the Jews.
The proofs of such hatred in reality is glaringly evident by the hatred of the Jews by the majority of Muslims around the world.





Why not reliable. This is another of your "inoculation theory" defenses.


The important point is I do not want to be ignorant or rely on one or two sources. I have a "research nature" in my blood and thus ensure I read as widely as possible to get a fair representative view of the subject I am researching.


The other important point is to approach any issue objectively, rationally & wisely using a very critical philosophical approach, i.e. the highest possible approach to understand any knowledge and issue. I believe I have done that with Islam.


By psychological default, all religionists have an emotional attachment to their religion from the deepest levels of primary emotions [basically primal fears] which is subliminal.
All over the Quran, Allah promote the emotion of fear, i.e. all Muslims must fear Allah, fear death, etc.. Surely you know 'fear' is an emotion, therefore you cannot deny you do not have any emotional attachments to Allah, thus Islam.

Instinctual fear emotion has utility to humans to facilitate the avoidance of premature death. But the Abrahamic religion and adopted by Muhammad invoke the emotion of fear to control his followers.
In contrast the wiser religions like Buddhism teaches their followers on how to manage and conquer mental fears, e.g. of death, worries, anxieties and the likes.


To get a greater understanding, refer to the Psychology of Religion and theism. Note William James, Freud, Adler and many others.
Probably because of family cultural heritage I never had any fear of death not as a Christian, Atheist or now Muslim. I was born into a culture that has the concept that births are a time for mourning as a person was entering into the hardships of life and death was a time to rejoice as a person has escaped from pain. I still have no fear of death and during my military years I was exposed to it very often and as a result of injuries in Nam was near death for almost a year. (one advantage is I have been well compensated by the VA for my injuries. I wish I were not disabled, but I am satisfied with the financial compensation plus the educational benefits they provided so I could engage in a non-physical career) The point being fear of death has no bearing in my practicing Islam. Even though I do so at home alone and have virtually no contact with other Muslims except my wife. I also find the Qur'an to be a book of knowledge and a very logical reason a theist should perform Islam. Not for any perceived rewards nor fear of any perceived threats but simply because it is a means to find fulfillment in life and a method of giving thanks for the opportunity of experiencing life, no matter how bad of an experience it has been.

I do firmly believe Allaah(swt) exists that was not taught to me and I embraced Islam with no contact by Muslims for over 30 years. I did learn the very basic routine practices during my time as an Evangelist engaged in converting Muslims to Christianity. My attitude was that if I was to convert them I had to know more about Islam then they did. I studied Islam for 20 or more years with that goal in mind. During that era I did perceive Islam to be filled with violence and did think the Qur'an not only condoned hatred of non-Muslims but actually encouraged it.

My approach to Islam was more based upon logic than emotion. the debatable part would be the reasons for my belief Allaah(swt) exists. But given the premise Allaah(swt) does exist I find Islam to be the most logical method of worship as it is strictly between the Individual and Allaah(swt) with no need of organization or clergy.

My study of inoculation theory was limited to the undergrad courses I had relating to Theories of Attitudes and Beliefs. My forte as I have stated before was in the field of physiological psychology I used to joke and say I chose that as I preferred to dissect a brain over talking with people. Physiological psychology more closely resembles neurology than clinical-psychology.

My own concept of religion evolved to the point where I believe it has to be based upon a personal relationship and not required dogma or rituals. I have found that Islam does meet that criteria.

I do not practice Islam because of any teaching, but because of an innate desire to serve my creator. Islam affords me the ability to do so in spite of my isolation, no membership in a group and without the preaching of clergy. Ideal for a person who is severely disabled, avoids being among people and is not physically capable of partaking in any rituals. Besides I am a cheapskate who likes the fact there is no tithing involved.
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Old 02-05-2016, 03:57 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,605,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Probably because of family cultural heritage I never had any fear of death not as a Christian, Atheist or now Muslim. I was born into a culture that has the concept that births are a time for mourning as a person was entering into the hardships of life and death was a time to rejoice as a person has escaped from pain. I still have no fear of death and during my military years I was exposed to it very often and as a result of injuries in Nam was near death for almost a year. (one advantage is I have been well compensated by the VA for my injuries. I wish I were not disabled, but I am satisfied with the financial compensation plus the educational benefits they provided so I could engage in a non-physical career) The point being fear of death has no bearing in my practicing Islam. Even though I do so at home alone and have virtually no contact with other Muslims except my wife. I also find the Qur'an to be a book of knowledge and a very logical reason a theist should perform Islam. Not for any perceived rewards nor fear of any perceived threats but simply because it is a means to find fulfillment in life and a method of giving thanks for the opportunity of experiencing life, no matter how bad of an experience it has been.
Btw, there is the concept of Thanophobia which is literally the real conscious fear of death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanat...disambiguation).
Such people has a mental problem and need to see a psychiatrist.

The average person do not suffer from thanophobia as the inherent fear of death impulse in inhibited and suppressed to facilitate normal living without being anxious about it.
That is why you are most people do not have a conscious sense and feeling of the fear of death.

While the inherent fear of death is suppressed in the daily consciousness of the average person, the inhibitors are usually not 100% effective and thus there are minor leakages which manifest subliminally in terms of various sub-conscious impulses of subliminal angst and anxieties.
The accumulations of such impulses generate subliminal angsts that drive the majority to seek solutions to deal with it and religions [theistic and non-theistic] are the most effective to deal with this angst.
This is how you and the majority are theistic and religious, and are fundamentally driven by the emotion of subconscious primal fear whether you recognized it or not. That is the fact.


Antonio Damasio has done a lot of research on how primary emotions affects one sub-consciously in their decision making. note [mine]
He [Damasio] also argues that emotions, usually seen as an impediment, are a crucial component of decision making, and that all decisions are based on emotional evaluations [at the subliminal level]. As he puts it, “Emotions and the feelings are not a luxury, they are a means of communicating our states of mind to others. But they are also a way of guiding our own judgments and decisions.
Antonio Damasio | Being Human
This is why the wiser religions like Buddhism isolate this subliminal fear and provide believers spiritual techniques to manage this fundamental primal fear.

Quote:
I do firmly believe Allaah(swt) exists that was not taught to me and I embraced Islam with no contact by Muslims for over 30 years. I did learn the very basic routine practices during my time as an Evangelist engaged in converting Muslims to Christianity. My attitude was that if I was to convert them I had to know more about Islam then they did. I studied Islam for 20 or more years with that goal in mind. During that era I did perceive Islam to be filled with violence and did think the Qur'an not only condoned hatred of non-Muslims but actually encouraged it.
I have done extensive research and philosophical reflections to understand it is impossible for God to exist as real.
The transcendental idea of God [illusory] is conceived necessary to deal with that subliminal angsts which is driven by the primal fear emotion.

Quote:
My approach to Islam was more based upon logic than emotion. the debatable part would be the reasons for my belief Allaah(swt) exists. But given the premise Allaah(swt) does exist I find Islam to be the most logical method of worship as it is strictly between the Individual and Allaah(swt) with no need of organization or clergy.
No matter how you dispute, the fundamental impulse that drive theistic religion is emotional and logic is secondary.
Your adoption of Islam like any Muslim or religionists is fundamentally emotional and psychological, an sense of logic to it is based on Pure Reason [note critique of Pure Reason by Kant] which is crude and proto-reason and logic.
This is why theistic religions are labeled as 'faith' i.e. belief not based on proof, logic or reason.

Quote:
My own concept of religion evolved to the point where I believe it has to be based upon a personal relationship and not required dogma or rituals. I have found that Islam does meet that criteria.

I do not practice Islam because of any teaching, but because of an innate desire to serve my creator. Islam affords me the ability to do so in spite of my isolation, no membership in a group and without the preaching of clergy. Ideal for a person who is severely disabled, avoids being among people and is not physically capable of partaking in any rituals. Besides I am a cheapskate who likes the fact there is no tithing involved.
I fully understand why you are onto to religion on a individual basis.


I hope you understand my perspective.
I have no issue and not very bothered with individual Muslim, Muslims as a group of people or even evil prone Muslims who [unfortunately] happened to be in such a state naturally due to psychological factors.
Therefore I will not criticize nor condemn you for being a Muslim since you as an average Joe like the majority need a religion to deal with the inherent unavoidable existential dilemma and existential angst.


What I am more concern is with Islam-in-general that has inherent malignant elements. While you and the majority will not be influenced by the malignant elements, they nevertheless influence and inspire SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
As with Islam, 'SOME' is not just a small bunch of people but a pool of 300 million potential evil prone Muslims. [Bell Curve].


Therefore it is ineffective to humanity for you to insist you see 'no evil' in Islam when in reality there is actual evil laden elements in the Quran [in part] that really catalyze and inspire the natural inherent 20% of evil prone Muslims. This is supported by the real terrible evils and violence that is committed by these evil prone Muslims around the world.


I am not too critical [except for some non-violent issue] of other religions as they do not contain serious malignant elements. Their believers has not opportunity to rely on their holy texts to justify any violence in the name of their God, religion or founder.
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Old 02-05-2016, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,372,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Btw, there is the concept of Thanophobia which is literally the real conscious fear of death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanat...disambiguation).
Such people has a mental problem and need to see a psychiatrist.

The average person do not suffer from thanophobia as the inherent fear of death impulse in inhibited and suppressed to facilitate normal living without being anxious about it.
That is why you are most people do not have a conscious sense and feeling of the fear of death.

While the inherent fear of death is suppressed in the daily consciousness of the average person, the inhibitors are usually not 100% effective and thus there are minor leakages which manifest subliminally in terms of various sub-conscious impulses of subliminal angst and anxieties.
The accumulations of such impulses generate subliminal angsts that drive the majority to seek solutions to deal with it and religions [theistic and non-theistic] are the most effective to deal with this angst.
This is how you and the majority are theistic and religious, and are fundamentally driven by the emotion of subconscious primal fear whether you recognized it or not. That is the fact.


Antonio Damasio has done a lot of research on how primary emotions affects one sub-consciously in their decision making. note [mine]
He [Damasio] also argues that emotions, usually seen as an impediment, are a crucial component of decision making, and that all decisions are based on emotional evaluations [at the subliminal level]. As he puts it, “Emotions and the feelings are not a luxury, they are a means of communicating our states of mind to others. But they are also a way of guiding our own judgments and decisions.
Antonio Damasio | Being Human
This is why the wiser religions like Buddhism isolate this subliminal fear and provide believers spiritual techniques to manage this fundamental primal fear.


I have done extensive research and philosophical reflections to understand it is impossible for God to exist as real.
The transcendental idea of God [illusory] is conceived necessary to deal with that subliminal angsts which is driven by the primal fear emotion.


No matter how you dispute, the fundamental impulse that drive theistic religion is emotional and logic is secondary.
Your adoption of Islam like any Muslim or religionists is fundamentally emotional and psychological, an sense of logic to it is based on Pure Reason [note critique of Pure Reason by Kant] which is crude and proto-reason and logic.
This is why theistic religions are labeled as 'faith' i.e. belief not based on proof, logic or reason.

I fully understand why you are onto to religion on a individual basis.


I hope you understand my perspective.
I have no issue and not very bothered with individual Muslim, Muslims as a group of people or even evil prone Muslims who [unfortunately] happened to be in such a state naturally due to psychological factors.
Therefore I will not criticize nor condemn you for being a Muslim since you as an average Joe like the majority need a religion to deal with the inherent unavoidable existential dilemma and existential angst.


What I am more concern is with Islam-in-general that has inherent malignant elements. While you and the majority will not be influenced by the malignant elements, they nevertheless influence and inspire SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
As with Islam, 'SOME' is not just a small bunch of people but a pool of 300 million potential evil prone Muslims. [Bell Curve].


Therefore it is ineffective to humanity for you to insist you see 'no evil' in Islam when in reality there is actual evil laden elements in the Quran [in part] that really catalyze and inspire the natural inherent 20% of evil prone Muslims. This is supported by the real terrible evils and violence that is committed by these evil prone Muslims around the world.


I am not too critical [except for some non-violent issue] of other religions as they do not contain serious malignant elements. Their believers has not opportunity to rely on their holy texts to justify any violence in the name of their God, religion or founder.
I think one thing you need to investigate is if as a whole are Muslims less prone or more prone to violence than non-Muslim groups.

I will concede that those who interpret the Qur'an in the same manner Hilali-Khan have done, will be influenced to do violence. However on the over-all scale it does more to inhibit violence than other life styles.

Of the 50 most violent Cities it should be noticed that Islam is either non-existant or a negligible percentage of the population.

The 50 Most Violent Cities In The World - Business Insider

The anti-Islamic faction will usually counter that with the argument that is not applicable as that violence is not related to religion.

But it is, as it indicates violence decreases in Islamic dominate cities. While Islam MIGHT induce violence in some susceptible Muslims over-all it reduces the incidence of violence.
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Old 02-05-2016, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think one thing you need to investigate is if as a whole are Muslims less prone or more prone to violence than non-Muslim groups.

I will concede that those who interpret the Qur'an in the same manner Hilali-Khan have done, will be influenced to do violence. However on the over-all scale it does more to inhibit violence than other life styles.

Of the 50 most violent Cities it should be noticed that Islam is either non-existant or a negligible percentage of the population.

The 50 Most Violent Cities In The World - Business Insider

The anti-Islamic faction will usually counter that with the argument that is not applicable as that violence is not related to religion.

But it is, as it indicates violence decreases in Islamic dominate cities. While Islam MIGHT induce violence in some susceptible Muslims over-all it reduces the incidence of violence.
One of my goal is the establishment toward Perpetual Peace Within Humanity, if it is not possible on a practical basis yet, then at least in theory.
I have done a very thorough research on the above. I am very confident this is possible given the current exponential positive trend of the advancement of knowledge and technology.


One of the objective of the above is to get rid or reduce ALL evils to the minimal.
In this case I have to cover all evils whether by non-Muslims and Muslims. Therefore it is not critical to compare who are more prone to evil or whose evil is greater.
The ultimate objective is to address all evils and resolve them as soon as possible.


The fact is evils from SOME Muslims in the name of Islam exist and it is very significant at present and a threat to the future of humanity. The fact that the evils and violence from Islam-in-part as committed by SOME Muslims is getting the most attention worldwide indicate it must be VERY SERIOUS.


Btw, we are focusing on violence by SOME Muslims because of its significance and we cannot discuss every evil at one go. In reality there is a wide range of violence and evils of various degrees that are committed by SOME Muslims with moral support from the majority. Since I am researching the subject I am very up to date with what is going on within the Muslims world and the range of evils committed by Muslims, e.g. oppression of minorities in various ways, barbaric tortures with Sharia Laws, the false arrogance that compel Muslims with the urge to dominate others [because the Quran exhorted that], restraint of other cultures, education, etc.


Note the NEWS column on the Right of this page of this site which report the daily evils from the Muslim world for any one who want to keep up to date. Islam: The Politically Incorrect Truth
You may be bias against this site but the News are linked from external News sites and most of the news are reported by others as well.


I am sure the various governments are dealing with other non-Muslims related evils and violence but we do not discuss them here because this is the "ISLAM FORUM."


Since all evils must and will be addressed, and to be on topic we should only discuss evils and violence related to Islam and Muslims in this particular Forum. This requirement is not because of any defense mechanism from the 'certain' non-Muslims but rather a compliance to intellectual credibility, integrity and Forum protocol.
I hope you get it this time as we have discussed this many times and I advise you not to mix up secular and theological related evils in this forum.


Why you keep bringing in other types of evil [addressed elsewhere] to compare with those of committed by Muslims is a deflection and psychological ploy as a defense mechanism to mute its significance. Obviously this is related the subliminal primal emotions within yourself.
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,372,751 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
One of my goal is the establishment toward Perpetual Peace Within Humanity, if it is not possible on a practical basis yet, then at least in theory.
I have done a very thorough research on the above. I am very confident this is possible given the current exponential positive trend of the advancement of knowledge and technology.


One of the objective of the above is to get rid or reduce ALL evils to the minimal.
In this case I have to cover all evils whether by non-Muslims and Muslims. Therefore it is not critical to compare who are more prone to evil or whose evil is greater.
The ultimate objective is to address all evils and resolve them as soon as possible.


The fact is evils from SOME Muslims in the name of Islam exist and it is very significant at present and a threat to the future of humanity. The fact that the evils and violence from Islam-in-part as committed by SOME Muslims is getting the most attention worldwide indicate it must be VERY SERIOUS.


Btw, we are focusing on violence by SOME Muslims because of its significance and we cannot discuss every evil at one go. In reality there is a wide range of violence and evils of various degrees that are committed by SOME Muslims with moral support from the majority. Since I am researching the subject I am very up to date with what is going on within the Muslims world and the range of evils committed by Muslims, e.g. oppression of minorities in various ways, barbaric tortures with Sharia Laws, the false arrogance that compel Muslims with the urge to dominate others [because the Quran exhorted that], restraint of other cultures, education, etc.


Note the NEWS column on the Right of this page of this site which report the daily evils from the Muslim world for any one who want to keep up to date. Islam: The Politically Incorrect Truth
You may be bias against this site but the News are linked from external News sites and most of the news are reported by others as well.


I am sure the various governments are dealing with other non-Muslims related evils and violence but we do not discuss them here because this is the "ISLAM FORUM."


Since all evils must and will be addressed, and to be on topic we should only discuss evils and violence related to Islam and Muslims in this particular Forum. This requirement is not because of any defense mechanism from the 'certain' non-Muslims but rather a compliance to intellectual credibility, integrity and Forum protocol.
I hope you get it this time as we have discussed this many times and I advise you not to mix up secular and theological related evils in this forum.


Why you keep bringing in other types of evil [addressed elsewhere] to compare with those of committed by Muslims is a deflection and psychological ploy as a defense mechanism to mute its significance. Obviously this is related the subliminal primal emotions within yourself.
Then we have a mutual desire. The reduction of violence among all people.


Where we differ is yhat in your opinion violence perpetrated by non-Muslims could be reduced by altering Islam.

My contention is that to alter Islam or remove Islam from Muslims would in reality result in a very high increase of violence.
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Old 02-05-2016, 10:48 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Then we have a mutual desire. The reduction of violence among all people.

Where we differ is yhat in your opinion violence perpetrated by non-Muslims could be reduced by altering Islam.

My contention is that to alter Islam or remove Islam from Muslims would in reality result in a very high increase of violence.
This can be viewed logically and rationally.


Here is a thought experiment [not real];
Let say we alter Islam to be like Christianity, then, definitely there will be lesser religion-inspired evils and violence.
Let say we alter Islam to be like Buddhism, I am certain there will be no more religion-inspired evils and violence from Buddhistic-Muslims.


The constraints and limitations is Islam cannot be altered as alteration is forbidden in accordance to the Quran. If altered such reformed-Islam cannot be the original completed, perfected and final Islam. So it is unlikely for Islam to be altered to be like Christianity, Buddhism or other religions.


Let say we remove Islam from the existing Muslims, therefore will be no more Islam and no more Muslims.
In this case I am 100% certain there is no more Islam-inspired evils and violence because there is no more Quran with its evil laden verses to influence and inspire any Muslim [there are also no more Muslims].



Woodrow LI: My contention is that to alter Islam or remove Islam from Muslims would in reality result in a very high increase of violence.

When there is no more Islam and no more Muslims, there is still a natural pool of 300 million evil prone people who were ex-Muslims.
These people will continue to commit evils and violence but it will not be Islam-inspired evils and violence. These ex-Muslims will continue to commit evils and violence but they are of secular nature due the inherent evil of human nature [Bell Curve]. Those who has murder, rapist, pedophile, aggressive, dominating, arrogant and other evil tendencies will continue to commit their respective evils but they cannot justify their evils by quoting verses from the Quran or referring to the Ahadiths.


The vulnerable good people will not turn evil because there is no evil laden verses to compel them to commit evil to facilitate their salvations and passage to a heaven with eternal life.


So effectively there will not be an increase in violence [especially of the likes of ISIS, other jihadists groups and mob rules] if we remove Islam from Muslims.
What will happen is there will be a change from no more religion-inspired evils to natural secular evils due to human nature [Bell Curve].

When we get rid of God-inspired evils and violence, what results with the evil prone is they turn to commit secular evils due to their natural evil urges.
The fact is natural occurring secular evils due to human nature are easier to control and deal than God-inspired evils. One reason is natural-occurring-evils are more confined to the individual[s] and thus restricted in comparison to an common ideology based on God that is common throughout the world.


This God ideology has a very volatile chain-reaction-effect by believers, example the drawing of cartoons in Denmark triggered a chain reaction of violence throughout the world, the Jews are hated by most Muslims all over the world because of hatred for Jews in the Quran. There are many example of such chain-reaction effects that has already happened.


On the other hand secular evils by an individual or group of secular people somewhere in New York will not trigger a chain-reaction evils from support of other people around the world.


In any case whatever the evils, ALL evils must be addressed and results to strive for perpetual peace in this world [one of my theoretical project].


Note the above is merely a thought experiment for reflection only.


I don't believe it is practical at the present but perhaps in the future [75, 100, 150 years from now??] where humanity can wean off all religions with their associated negativities when their cons outweigh their pros.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-05-2016 at 11:00 PM..
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Old 02-05-2016, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
From these one can gather the main context of the Quran which is Eschatological which rely on Biblical Stories and condemnation of the infidels [blowing the candles of others to shine one's own].

Show one instance in the Qur'an where Jews, Christians or Sabeeans are called infidels or kafiruns.
From my analysis I have tracked 247 verses that are specific to Jews and Christians.


General while most of the time the Jews are referred to as Children of Israel or People of the Book or with Christians as People of the Scriptures, the general implications is both Jews and Christians are infidels or kuffar because they have corrupted or strayed from the messages of the original Quran. Thus they are disbelievers [kuffar] as far as the original Quran of Muhammad is concerned.


Here is one relevant verse that mentioned Jews and Christians are kuffar,
59:2 Huwa allathee akhraja allatheena kafaroo min ahli alkitabi min diyarihim li-awwali alhashri ma thanantum an yakhrujoo wathannoo annahum maniAAatuhum husoonuhum mina Allahi faatahumu Allahu min haythu lam yahtasiboo waqathafa fee quloobihimu alrruAAba yukhriboona buyootahum bi-aydeehim waaydee almu/mineena faiAAtabiroo ya olee al-absari


59:2 [Pickthall] He it is Who hath caused those of the People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] who disbelieved [as infidels, kuffar] to go forth from their homes unto the first exile. Ye deemed not that they would go forth, while they deemed that their strongholds would protect them from Allah. But Allah reached them from a place whereof they recked not, and cast terror in their hearts so that they ruined their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers. So learn a lesson, O ye who have eyes!
Note there are many more verses where the Jews and Christians are labeled explicitly or implicitly as kuffar or infidels, i.e. disbelievers of the Original Quran from Allah.


Here is another
5:82. [Pickthall - part] Thou wilt find the most vehement [zealous] of mankind in hostility to those [Muslims] who believe - (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. ...
The above imply the Jews are disbelievers, i.e. infidels and kuffar.
Nb: While the 2nd part of this verse seem to praise the Christians, they are subsequently condemned for assigning a son to Allah.


Here is another verse which condemned the Christians as kuffar by inference and implicitly;
5:73 Laqad kafara allatheena qaloo inna Allaha thalithu thalathatin wama min ilahin illa ilahun wahidun wa-in lam yantahoo AAamma yaqooloona layamassanna allatheena kafaroo minhum AAathabun


5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
The above imply the Christians [re third of three -trinity] are kuffar.


As I said there are many more.


Now if you are supposed to be very familiar with the Quran how come you did not know the above and has to rely on a newbie non-Muslim like me to provide you the answer and proving you wrong in your challenge.
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Old 02-06-2016, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,372,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From my analysis I have tracked 247 verses that are specific to Jews and Christians.


General while most of the time the Jews are referred to as Children of Israel or People of the Book or with Christians as People of the Scriptures, the general implications is both Jews and Christians are infidels or kuffar because they have corrupted or strayed from the messages of the original Quran. Thus they are disbelievers [kuffar] as far as the original Quran of Muhammad is concerned.


Here is one relevant verse that mentioned Jews and Christians are kuffar,
59:2 Huwa allathee akhraja allatheena kafaroo min ahli alkitabi min diyarihim li-awwali alhashri ma thanantum an yakhrujoo wathannoo annahum maniAAatuhum husoonuhum mina Allahi faatahumu Allahu min haythu lam yahtasiboo waqathafa fee quloobihimu alrruAAba yukhriboona buyootahum bi-aydeehim waaydee almu/mineena faiAAtabiroo ya olee al-absari


59:2 [Pickthall] He it is Who hath caused those of the People of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] who disbelieved [as infidels, kuffar] to go forth from their homes unto the first exile. Ye deemed not that they would go forth, while they deemed that their strongholds would protect them from Allah. But Allah reached them from a place whereof they recked not, and cast terror in their hearts so that they ruined their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers. So learn a lesson, O ye who have eyes!
Note there are many more verses where the Jews and Christians are labeled explicitly or implicitly as kuffar or infidels, i.e. disbelievers of the Original Quran from Allah.


Here is another
5:82. [Pickthall - part] Thou wilt find the most vehement [zealous] of mankind in hostility to those [Muslims] who believe - (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. ...
The above imply the Jews are disbelievers, i.e. infidels and kuffar.
Nb: While the 2nd part of this verse seem to praise the Christians, they are subsequently condemned for assigning a son to Allah.


Here is another verse which condemned the Christians as kuffar by inference and implicitly;
5:73 Laqad kafara allatheena qaloo inna Allaha thalithu thalathatin wama min ilahin illa ilahun wahidun wa-in lam yantahoo AAamma yaqooloona layamassanna allatheena kafaroo minhum AAathabun


5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.
The above imply the Christians [re third of three -trinity] are kuffar.


As I said there are many more.


Now if you are supposed to be very familiar with the Quran how come you did not know the above and has to rely on a newbie non-Muslim like me to provide you the answer and proving you wrong in your challenge.
In 59.2 no one is being called a Kafir. But it is saying that some of the people of the Scripture dod kafaroo Disbelieved and were cast out by God(swt) (in the previous scripture- the scriptures of the Jews and Christians) This is in reference to previous scripture. But the point is no group (Christians or Jews or Sabeeans are being called Kaffir)

5:73 does indicate that Trinitarians are disbelieves but falls short of calling any group Kafir.

5:82 is directed to some, not all Jews. Again they are not called kafir but are said to be vehemently hateful of Muslims.

I still contend thre is no place in the Qur'an are Christian or Jews are called Kafir
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Old 02-06-2016, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In 59.2 no one is being called a Kafir. But it is saying that some of the people of the Scripture dod kafaroo Disbelieved and were cast out by God(swt) (in the previous scripture- the scriptures of the Jews and Christians) This is in reference to previous scripture. But the point is no group (Christians or Jews or Sabeeans are being called Kaffir)

5:73 does indicate that Trinitarians are disbelieves but falls short of calling any group Kafir.

5:82 is directed to some, not all Jews. Again they are not called kafir but are said to be vehemently hateful of Muslims.

I still contend thre is no place in the Qur'an are Christian or Jews are called Kafir
The above is your deflection again due to primal emotional attachment.


As I mentioned 59:2 is merely one example.
The implication is
'some of the people of the Scripture disbelieved'
Those who disbelieved are disbelievers
Disbelievers are kafir
Therefore some of the people of the Scriptures are disbelievers.


Show me where it the fault of the above logic.
I know you are capable of this logic but because you are so emotional [subliminally not consciously] you will be blind to the logic of the above which is not to your favor.


59:2 implied some People of the Scriptures are kafir and together with the other numerous verses that send the same message, the general view is the Jews and Christians are kuffar, kafir, kafara and infidels.


As for 5:73 and 5:82 my argument is the same as the above logic of 59:2 where by implications they are kafir, kuffar and thus infidels, i.e. non-believers.


This condemnation of the Jews and Christians as kuffar is very specific because the Jews and Christians are aware of Allah message, warning and reminders but they do not want to believe Muhammad's warning of Allah's reminder -the Quran.
Therefore all Jews and Christians [the whole group] who adopted the corrupted Torah and Gospels respectively are Kuffar.


Note the above needed some higher analytical skills to arrive by indirect inference to such a conclusion that All the Jews and Christians at present and 'prior'* by their default adoption of their respective corrupted texts/messages are kuffar.
* except Abraham and some others before the messages were corrupted.
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Old 02-06-2016, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above is your deflection again due to primal emotional attachment.


As I mentioned 59:2 is merely one example.
The implication is
'some of the people of the Scripture disbelieved'
Those who disbelieved are disbelievers
Disbelievers are kafir
Therefore some of the people of the Scriptures are disbelievers.


Show me where it the fault of the above logic.
I know you are capable of this logic but because you are so emotional [subliminally not consciously] you will be blind to the logic of the above which is not to your favor.


59:2 implied some People of the Scriptures are kafir and together with the other numerous verses that send the same message, the general view is the Jews and Christians are kuffar, kafir, kafara and infidels.


As for 5:73 and 5:82 my argument is the same as the above logic of 59:2 where by implications they are kafir, kuffar and thus infidels, i.e. non-believers.


This condemnation of the Jews and Christians as kuffar is very specific because the Jews and Christians are aware of Allah message, warning and reminders but they do not want to believe Muhammad's warning of Allah's reminder -the Quran.
Therefore all Jews and Christians [the whole group] who adopted the corrupted Torah and Gospels respectively are Kuffar.


Note the above needed some higher analytical skills to arrive by indirect inference to such a conclusion that All the Jews and Christians at present and 'prior'* by their default adoption of their respective corrupted texts/messages are kuffar.
* except Abraham and some others before the messages were corrupted.

A point of logic I would like you to think about.

The Qur'an does state who a Muslim is permitted to Marry




It is not permissible for a Muslim to marry a Kafir.

It is permissible for a Muslim man to marry a Jew, Sabeean or Christian (they also are not obligated to convert)

Therefore they are not Kafirun in the Qur'an. again I will state no where does the Qur'an call them Kafir.



while in recent years Kafir has begun taking on the Meaning of "Non-Muslim the original meaning is non-believer. Jews, Sabeeans and Christians do believe in God(swt) therefore do not meet the definition of Kafir. Some scholars will also state that applies also to Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, and Baha'a.

While we do believe they each are commiting grave sins by failing to practice Islam and some even ascribing prodigy, equals or partners to Allaah(swt) they still are not kafirun.
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