U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-07-2016, 01:11 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,607,707 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A point of logic I would like you to think about.
The Qur'an does state who a Muslim is permitted to Marry

It is not permissible for a Muslim to marry a Kafir.

It is permissible for a Muslim man to marry a Jew, Sabeean or Christian (they also are not obligated to convert)

Therefore they are not Kafirun in the Qur'an. again I will state no where does the Qur'an call them Kafir.

while in recent years Kafir has begun taking on the Meaning of "Non-Muslim the original meaning is non-believer. Jews, Sabeeans and Christians do believe in God(swt) therefore do not meet the definition of Kafir. Some scholars will also state that applies also to Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, and Baha'a.

While we do believe they each are commiting grave sins by failing to practice Islam and some even ascribing prodigy, equals or partners to Allaah(swt) they still are not kafirun.
Here is a good article that answers the above.
[] = mine


Quote:
The Quran prohibits Muslim men from marrying unbelievers and associators, saying that it is better for them to marry believing women:
And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful. S. 2:221 Shakir
[Jew and Christians are disbelievers - kafir]
The word for unbeliever comes from the term kafir, which refers to one who makes kufr. According to the Quran, the Jews and Christians (specifically the latter) fall under these categories of mushrik and kafir:
O ye who believe! surely, the idolaters are unclean (al-mushrikoona najasun). So they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs. And if you fear poverty, ALLAH will enrich you out of HIS bounty, if HE pleases. Surely, ALLAH is All-Knowing, Wise. Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in ALLAH, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what ALLAH and HIS Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection. And the Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of ALLAH,’ and the Christians say, ‘the Messiah is the son of ALLAH;’ that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved (kafaroo) before them. ALLAH's curse be on them! How they are turned away. They have taken their priest and their monks for lords besides ALLAH. And so have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but HE. Holy is HE far above what they associate (yushrikoona) with Him! They seek to extinguish the light of ALLAH with their mouths; but ALLAH refuses but to perfect HIS light, though the disbelievers (al-kafiroona) may resent it. HE it is Who has sent HIS Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that HE may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the idolaters (al-mushrikoona) may resent it. S. 9:28-33 Sher Ali



Yet the following verse says that Muslim men can marry women who are Jews and Christians!
Today the good things are permitted you, and the food of those who were given the Book is permitted to you, and permitted to them is your food; Likewise believing women in wedlock, and in wedlock women of them who were given the Book before you if you give them their wages, in wedlock and not in licence, or as taking lovers. Whoso disbelieves in the faith, his work has failed, and in the world to come he shall be among the losers. S. 5:5 Arberry
No true book of God would contradict itself like this.
Hence, based on the confusion in the above passages the Quran definitely cannot be from God.


Qur'an Contradiction: Can a Muslim Man Marry a Christian Woman?


5:5 is one verse that exposed a contradiction in the Quran.
This support my contention is the Quran was authored by a fallible Muhammad or group of men who as humans are vulnerable to contradictions and errors.
Besides, my main contention is God is illusory and do not exists as real.


Suggest you read the full article above.


When the Quran is read in the full context, the overall context is the Jews and Christians are disbelievers and such a point is supported by many verses that made such an implication.


Because the Quran did not state the Jews and Christians are kafir directly [distinctly] and explicitly but mostly by implication [indirectly], the author of 5:5 missed out that serious implications and created a contradiction in the Quran.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-08-2016, 05:59 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,383,497 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is a good article that answers the above.
[] = mine


5:5 is one verse that exposed a contradiction in the Quran.
This support my contention is the Quran was authored by a fallible Muhammad or group of men who as humans are vulnerable to contradictions and errors.
Besides, my main contention is God is illusory and do not exists as real.


Suggest you read the full article above.


When the Quran is read in the full context, the overall context is the Jews and Christians are disbelievers and such a point is supported by many verses that made such an implication.


Because the Quran did not state the Jews and Christians are kafir directly [distinctly] and explicitly but mostly by implication [indirectly], the author of 5:5 missed out that serious implications and created a contradiction in the Quran.
Mahy of us including non--Muslims have a much different opinion about the Qur'an and overall believe it promotes peace with non-Muslims.

A couple of links

| Top Christian Scholar: The Bible is More Violent Than the Koran

SermonAudio.com | Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?

Historian Demolishes Idea The Quran Is More Violent Than Bible: Christians Have ‘Holy Amnesia’
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2016, 04:06 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,607,707 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Mahy of us including non--Muslims have a much different opinion about the Qur'an and overall believe it promotes peace with non-Muslims.

A couple of links

| Top Christian Scholar: The Bible is More Violent Than the Koran

SermonAudio.com | Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?

Historian Demolishes Idea The Quran Is More Violent Than Bible: Christians Have ‘Holy Amnesia’
I have discounted the above views many times. It is most likely you forgot them.
Besides the above is merely a view of 1 of the 5.5 billion non-Muslims.
If we assess the evil and violence of both Christianity and Islam, the truth will be very different from Jenkins' ignorant view.


All the above links refer to the views of Philip Jenkins;
"In terms of its bloodthirsty and intolerant passages, the Bible raises considerably more issues than does the Qur'an. Some Bible passages justify genocide and multigenerational race war; the Qur'an has nothing comparable.
While many Qur'anic texts undoubtedly call for warfare or bloodshed, these are hedged around with more restrictions than their biblical equivalents, with more opportunities for the defeated to make peace and survive.
Furthermore, any of the defenses that can be offered for biblical violence--for instance, that these passages are unrepresentative of the overall message of the text--apply equally to the Qur-an." -
Philip Jenkins, author of Laying Down The Sword: Why We Can't Ignore The Bible's Violent Verses.
| Top Christian Scholar: The Bible is More Violent Than the Koran


Historian Philip Jenkins is insulting his own intelligence due to his lack of discernment, intellectual refinements and critical thinking.


To students [not necessary believers] of Christianity and Quran, it is VERY obvious [I have said many times] there are more evil laden verses in the Bible than in the Quran.
The bulk of the evil verses that Philip Jenkins refer to are from the Old Testaments.
What Philip Jenkins seem to be ignorant is the central texts of Christianity is the Gospels in the New Testaments {NT}.


In Christianity the overriding doctrines in the NT overrides those of the Old Testaments.
The overriding Pacifist maxim of the NT, i.e. 'love your enemies,' 'give your other cheeks, 'love this and love that' override all evil elements in the OT and NT.


The fact is as Christians progress toward the ideals of their pacifist maxim in the NT, the majority of Christians mature spiritually and humanly with lesser and lesser evils and violence.
This is very evident from the trend of their terrible past evils to lesser evils and violence at present.


As for the evil laden verses in the Quran, Philip Jenkins mentioned,
"While many Qur'anic texts undoubtedly call for warfare or bloodshed, these are hedged around with more restrictions than their biblical equivalents, with more opportunities for the defeated to make peace and survive."
Jenkins is right is mentioning that the "Qur'anic texts undoubtedly call for warfare or bloodshed" BUT he is wrong on "with more restrictions."


While the Quranic texts has conditions and restrictions, they are vague and ambiguous.
E.g. The Quran permit the attack and killing of non-Muslims if Islam and Muslims are under "threat" or attack.


The conditions described as under threat is very vague and ambiguous and most [not all] Muslims who are very sensitive perceived whatever acts and thoughts that they uncomfortable and disturbed as a threat.
For example,
1. drawing of cartoons of Muhammad is a threat and since Allah sanction killing of non-Muslim if there is threat, many Muslims went on a rampage to kill non-Muslims.
2. Western education is a threat -note Boko Haram, the shooting of Malala and other cases.
3. The presence of foreign soldiers and other interventions for whatever purpose is threat and hindrance to Islam, note Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere
4. There are many others many instances which are insignificance in the general sense, but the Muslims are highly offended due to their sensitivity and low self-esteem.


There are no overriding maxim to limit the evils and violence SOME Muslims. As such there is a no-holds-barred to the evils and violence by SOME Muslim.
This will happen as long as the SOME Muslims perceived and misperceived the existence of threats to Muslims and Islam.
The evidence of the increasing trend of evils and violence by SOME evil prone Muslims being catalyzed, influenced and inspired by evil laden verses in the Quran [Islam] is glaringly evident in the daily news.

The evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims is consistent with those since Islam emerged and will get worse when WMDs are cheaper and can be obtained easily from the black market.

The following are the conclusions which Phillip Jenkins is ignorant of;
1. Islam contains both good and much evil elements but has no overriding maxim to limit evil.
2. Christianity is mainly represented by the NT which overrides the OT.
3. Christianity in the NT contains both good with some evils but has an overriding pacifist maxim.c
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2016, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,383,497 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have discounted the above views many times. It is most likely you forgot them.
Besides the above is merely a view of 1 of the 5.5 billion non-Muslims.
If we assess the evil and violence of both Christianity and Islam, the truth will be very different from Jenkins' ignorant view.


All the above links refer to the views of Philip Jenkins;
"In terms of its bloodthirsty and intolerant passages, the Bible raises considerably more issues than does the Qur'an. Some Bible passages justify genocide and multigenerational race war; the Qur'an has nothing comparable.
While many Qur'anic texts undoubtedly call for warfare or bloodshed, these are hedged around with more restrictions than their biblical equivalents, with more opportunities for the defeated to make peace and survive.
Furthermore, any of the defenses that can be offered for biblical violence--for instance, that these passages are unrepresentative of the overall message of the text--apply equally to the Qur-an." -
Philip Jenkins, author of Laying Down The Sword: Why We Can't Ignore The Bible's Violent Verses.
| Top Christian Scholar: The Bible is More Violent Than the Koran


Historian Philip Jenkins is insulting his own intelligence due to his lack of discernment, intellectual refinements and critical thinking.


To students [not necessary believers] of Christianity and Quran, it is VERY obvious [I have said many times] there are more evil laden verses in the Bible than in the Quran.
The bulk of the evil verses that Philip Jenkins refer to are from the Old Testaments.
What Philip Jenkins seem to be ignorant is the central texts of Christianity is the Gospels in the New Testaments {NT}.


In Christianity the overriding doctrines in the NT overrides those of the Old Testaments.
The overriding Pacifist maxim of the NT, i.e. 'love your enemies,' 'give your other cheeks, 'love this and love that' override all evil elements in the OT and NT.


The fact is as Christians progress toward the ideals of their pacifist maxim in the NT, the majority of Christians mature spiritually and humanly with lesser and lesser evils and violence.
This is very evident from the trend of their terrible past evils to lesser evils and violence at present.


As for the evil laden verses in the Quran, Philip Jenkins mentioned,
"While many Qur'anic texts undoubtedly call for warfare or bloodshed, these are hedged around with more restrictions than their biblical equivalents, with more opportunities for the defeated to make peace and survive."
Jenkins is right is mentioning that the "Qur'anic texts undoubtedly call for warfare or bloodshed" BUT he is wrong on "with more restrictions."


While the Quranic texts has conditions and restrictions, they are vague and ambiguous.
E.g. The Quran permit the attack and killing of non-Muslims if Islam and Muslims are under "threat" or attack.


The conditions described as under threat is very vague and ambiguous and most [not all] Muslims who are very sensitive perceived whatever acts and thoughts that they uncomfortable and disturbed as a threat.
For example,
1. drawing of cartoons of Muhammad is a threat and since Allah sanction killing of non-Muslim if there is threat, many Muslims went on a rampage to kill non-Muslims.
2. Western education is a threat -note Boko Haram, the shooting of Malala and other cases.
3. The presence of foreign soldiers and other interventions for whatever purpose is threat and hindrance to Islam, note Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere
4. There are many others many instances which are insignificance in the general sense, but the Muslims are highly offended due to their sensitivity and low self-esteem.


There are no overriding maxim to limit the evils and violence SOME Muslims. As such there is a no-holds-barred to the evils and violence by SOME Muslim.
This will happen as long as the SOME Muslims perceived and misperceived the existence of threats to Muslims and Islam.
The evidence of the increasing trend of evils and violence by SOME evil prone Muslims being catalyzed, influenced and inspired by evil laden verses in the Quran [Islam] is glaringly evident in the daily news.

The evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims is consistent with those since Islam emerged and will get worse when WMDs are cheaper and can be obtained easily from the black market.

The following are the conclusions which Phillip Jenkins is ignorant of;
1. Islam contains both good and much evil elements but has no overriding maxim to limit evil.
2. Christianity is mainly represented by the NT which overrides the OT.
3. Christianity in the NT contains both good with some evils but has an overriding pacifist maxim.c
Only one of the three links related to Jenkins.


The one using Text Analytics software by Tom Anderson is probably as unbiased as is possible as the result is basically based upon mathematical occurrences and not human concepts


Text Analytics Program Proves Quran Less Violent Than The Bible
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-09-2016, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,607,707 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Only one of the three links related to Jenkins.
Did you read your links?


Note the extract from all the three links which mentioned Jenkins,

| Top Christian Scholar: The Bible is More Violent Than the Koran

- Philip Jenkins, author of Laying Down The Sword: Why We Can't Ignore The Bible's Violent Verses


SermonAudio.com | Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?
"Much to my surprise, the Islamic scriptures in the Quran were actually far less bloody and less violent than those in the Bible," Jenkins says.

Historian Demolishes Idea The Quran Is More Violent Than Bible: Christians Have ‘Holy Amnesia’
Penn State professor Philip Jenkins has literally written the book on religious history (several in fact).


You have to admit your error, omission and shortfall.



Quote:
The one using Text Analytics software by Tom Anderson is probably as unbiased as is possible as the result is basically based upon mathematical occurrences and not human concepts

Text Analytics Program Proves Quran Less Violent Than The Bible
Note I have already admitted the whole of the Bible has more evil and violent element than the Quran.


But note my point Christianity rely critically on the NT [not OT] with its overriding pacifist maxims of 'love thy enemies' 'give the other cheek' and a general sense of love for all.


Note from another perspective where the Quran is effectively more cruel in terms of percentage % of cruel verses to total number of verses.
Which is more violent, the Bible or the Quran?

No. of Violent and Cruel Verses
Bible.. 842
Quran 333

Violence and Cruelty; Total verses; Percent%
Bible.. 842 31102 2.71%
Quran 333 6236.. 5.34%


The analysis from the above site need more refinements but it will not change the fact that the Quran has a higher % of Violent & Cruel Verses than the Bible.


These numbers and % by themselves are not critical to humanity.
What is critical to humanity is the manner and potential how these evil laden verses inspire SOME evil prone believers to commit terrible evils and violence in the name of their religion and founder.


The obvious trend is;
Christianity: The level of evils and violence by SOME Christians has been on the down trend since 600 years ago to the present which is very minimal.


Islam: The level of evils and violence by SOME evil prone Muslims has been on the up trend since 1500 years ago to the present, and it will be bigger threat to humanity when WMDs are cheaper and easily available from the black market.

You cannot deny the reality of the above two contrasting trends.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-09-2016 at 11:33 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-12-2016, 01:38 AM
 
3,206 posts, read 1,061,447 times
Reputation: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

When the Quran is read in the full context, the overall context is the Jews and Christians are disbelievers and such a point is supported by many verses that made such an implication.


Because the Quran did not state the Jews and Christians are kafir directly [distinctly] and explicitly but mostly by implication [indirectly], the author of 5:5 missed out that serious implications and created a contradiction in the Quran.
5:5 is not a contradiction when all verses in the Qur'an are studied and fully understood. There is a big difference between a Believer (Momin) and a Kafir. A Believer accepts the Torah given to Moses, Injeel (preachings of Jesus) and the Qur'an as revelations from Allah (God). People of the Book are believers in Torah and Injeel only.

A Kafir is someone who rejects any of these three revelations and says that the book is not from God. Having open mind (even without accepting a book) does not make one non-believer but actually rejecting it and then actively attacking it makes one Kafir when deep down he knows that the book (revelation) is from God.

In the Qur'an, only those (idol sworshippers) are Kuffar who had rejected the Qur'an and then had attacked those who had believed the Qur'an. For this reason, only some Bani Israel are called believers and others transgressors and never outright kuffar.

The requirement for mariage is that they must believe in the revelation of the Qur'an as well. This applies to both men and women. 5:5 does not approve for marriage a rejecter of the Qur'an whether man or woman.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-12-2016, 04:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,607,707 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
5:5 is not a contradiction when all verses in the Qur'an are studied and fully understood. There is a big difference between a Believer (Momin) and a Kafir. A Believer accepts the Torah given to Moses, Injeel (preachings of Jesus) and the Qur'an as revelations from Allah (God). People of the Book are believers in Torah and Injeel only.

A Kafir is someone who rejects any of these three revelations and says that the book is not from God. Having open mind (even without accepting a book) does not make one non-believer but actually rejecting it and then actively attacking it makes one Kafir when deep down he knows that the book (revelation) is from God.

In the Qur'an, only those (idol sworshippers) are Kuffar who had rejected the Qur'an and then had attacked those who had believed the Qur'an. For this reason, only some Bani Israel are called believers and others transgressors and never outright kuffar.

The requirement for mariage is that they must believe in the revelation of the Qur'an as well. This applies to both men and women. 5:5 does not approve for marriage a rejecter of the Qur'an whether man or woman.
You got it wrong on Jews and Christian [especially the present ones] as believers.
From my perspective of reading the full Quran, the Jews and Christians are subsequently disbelievers.
The point is reflected all over the Quran.


1. The prior-Jews [Abraham and some] were given the pure original Torah [Moses] and Christians give the Injeel [Jesus] from Allah prior to Muhammad.
2. But subsequently the Jews and Christians made amendments and corrupt the original Torah and Injeel respectively. This what made Muhammad very angry because they omitted the verses that supported Muhammad as the prophesized messenger.
3. Because of this corruption of the texts, the Jews and Christian who follow this subsequently altered 'Torah' and 'Injeel', are by definition, disbelievers.
4. They, the present Jews and Christians are disbelievers because they did not follow the original words of Allah [prior to Muhammad].
5. This is why Allah came up with the complete, perfected and final revelation [Quran] as a reminder for the Jews and Christians to revert to the original words [message] as in the Quran.


Abraham, an Israeli [supposedly Jew] was a Muslim because then he believed in the religion of Allah without any corruption of the original texts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-14-2016, 09:51 PM
 
Location: quiet place
280 posts, read 217,121 times
Reputation: 109
Jazak Allah Kheer, brother Woodrow and I ask Allah to accept from you and your wife. actually, prayer is the link between slave and its God. it is a light for us in this life and it brings prosperity and security to one's life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-15-2016, 02:08 PM
 
3,206 posts, read 1,061,447 times
Reputation: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You got it wrong on Jews and Christian [especially the present ones] as believers.
From my perspective of reading the full Quran, the Jews and Christians are subsequently disbelievers.
The point is reflected all over the Quran.


1. The prior-Jews [Abraham and some] were given the pure original Torah [Moses] and Christians give the Injeel [Jesus] from Allah prior to Muhammad.
2. But subsequently the Jews and Christians made amendments and corrupt the original Torah and Injeel respectively. This what made Muhammad very angry because they omitted the verses that supported Muhammad as the prophesized messenger.
3. Because of this corruption of the texts, the Jews and Christian who follow this subsequently altered 'Torah' and 'Injeel', are by definition, disbelievers.
4. They, the present Jews and Christians are disbelievers because they did not follow the original words of Allah [prior to Muhammad].
5. This is why Allah came up with the complete, perfected and final revelation [Quran] as a reminder for the Jews and Christians to revert to the original words [message] as in the Quran.


Abraham, an Israeli [supposedly Jew] was a Muslim because then he believed in the religion of Allah without any corruption of the original texts.
Christians and Jews cannot be called Kuffar because they do believe in God and at least Torah from God. Many of them do not accept the Qur'an because they think that the Qur'an is not for them; only the Torah or the Gospels. A kafir is someone who completely rejects the Qur'an as if it was not from God but only from Muhammad. He attacks the Qur'an and those who follow it. If a Christian or a Jew also did the same, he can be called the same; Kafir.

Marriage with anyone, man or woman, who rejects the Qur'an is not valid in Islam.

As for the other points:

1. Abraham was not a Jew. He was not given the Torah.
2. The Qur'an does not say so. The Qur'an says that they did not protect the revelation (Jews) and forgot quite a bit that they were given (Injeel).
3. No. That is not the reason for being disbelievers but for rejecting the Qur'an as a revelation from God.
4. No once more. Same as above.
5. Deen was perfected, and not revelation. How to submit to God was perfected rather than God perfected His own revelation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-15-2016, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,607,707 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Christians and Jews cannot be called Kuffar because they do believe in God and at least Torah from God.
At one point in time the Jews and Christians corrupted Allah original message orally and in their texts.
When they believe in the corrupted texts they are no more "Muslims" and thus become disbelievers. Thus the present Jews and Christians who adopted this supposedly corrupted texts [the present Torah and Gospels] are disbelievers - kuffar.


Believing in God do not imply being Muslims.
The Hindus also believe in a monotheistic God but they are not Muslims.


Quote:
Many of them do not accept the Qur'an because they think that the Qur'an is not for them; only the Torah or the Gospels. A kafir is someone who completely rejects the Qur'an as if it was not from God but only from Muhammad. He attacks the Qur'an and those who follow it. If a Christian or a Jew also did the same, he can be called the same; Kafir.
Hindus and many other non-Muslims also think the Quran is not for them, i.e. they prefer their own religion. They are called Kuffar. It is the same for the Jews and Christians who adopted the corrupted Torah and Gospel and do not accept the Quran and Muhammad as the messenger.


Why the Quran do not use the term 'kuffar' for Jews and Christians [who are disbelievers of Islam] is because they have a familiar name for them, i.e. people of the book, people of the scriptures, etc. The rest of non-Muslims who do not accept Islam are labeled 'kuffar.'
Semantically, the Jews and Christians who disbelieve Islam are also kuffar.



As for the other points:

1. Abraham was not a Jew. He was not given the Torah.
I indicated Torah was given to Moses. Abraham believed in the original message from Allah.


2. The Qur'an does not say so. The Qur'an says that they did not protect the revelation (Jews) and forgot quite a bit that they were given (Injeel).
The fact is Muhammad accused the Jews and Christians of changing [for whatever reasons] the original message from Allah.


3. No. That is not the reason for being disbelievers but for rejecting the Qur'an as a revelation from God.
Note my explanation above.
Semantically, the Jews and Christians who adopted the corrupted texts were disbelievers.


4. No once more. Same as above.
Same as 3.


5. Deen was perfected, and not revelation. How to submit to God was perfected rather than God perfected His own revelation.
Again this is merely semantics which I qualified clearly.


Note I wrote "revelation[Quran]" which mean the message in the Quran that conveyed the 'religion' and the essence of the point is in 5:3.

5:3 This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top