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Old 01-16-2016, 07:17 PM
 
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Pakistani clerics block 'un-Islamic' child marriage bill | Daily Mail Online

The government of Pakistan tried to make child bride marriages illegal but the Islamic Council said such laws were in-Islamic.
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Old 01-16-2016, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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From a human moral perspective child marriages are evil & abominable especially where there is no age restrictions or it is permissible to marry those as young as 9-10.
In general the majority of human societies all over the world has raised their legal age for marriage higher and higher to a more reasonable legal age in line with the mental and physical maturity of males and females.


The story as recorded in the Hadiths is Muhammad married a child of six, consummated the marriage at 9 and Muhammad is supposedly to be an exemplar which reinforce Muslims to adhere to the Hadiths that permit child marriages.
Because most Muslims claimed the Ahadiths has divine authority a Muslim cannot disobey Allah and the messenger.
This is how the majority of Muslims in Pakistan are able to force their views to override basic human rights and the feeling of compassion for children.


There is no such law regarding child marriages in the Quran.
Since the Quran is the sole and final authority of Islam, the ruling against child marriage in Pakistan in this OP case cannot be Islamic per se.
Therefore the acts those who thwarted the bill against child marriage were not Islamic.


If is very unfortunate that zealous Muslims driven by being Islam are blinded to have any sense of compassion and empathy for the potential harms to children merely to satisfy their lust [what else].
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Old 01-17-2016, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
From a human moral perspective child marriages are evil & abominable especially where there is no age restrictions or it is permissible to marry those as young as 9-10.
In general the majority of human societies all over the world has raised their legal age for marriage higher and higher to a more reasonable legal age in line with the mental and physical maturity of males and females.


The story as recorded in the Hadiths is Muhammad married a child of six, consummated the marriage at 9 and Muhammad is supposedly to be an exemplar which reinforce Muslims to adhere to the Hadiths that permit child marriages.
Because most Muslims claimed the Ahadiths has divine authority a Muslim cannot disobey Allah and the messenger.
This is how the majority of Muslims in Pakistan are able to force their views to override basic human rights and the feeling of compassion for children.


There is no such law regarding child marriages in the Quran.
Since the Quran is the sole and final authority of Islam, the ruling against child marriage in Pakistan in this OP case cannot be Islamic per se.
Therefore the acts those who thwarted the bill against child marriage were not Islamic.


If is very unfortunate that zealous Muslims driven by being Islam are blinded to have any sense of compassion and empathy for the potential harms to children merely to satisfy their lust [what else].
Marriage in Islam is not quite the same as marriage in Christianity or western marriages in general.

Nikkah is a contract entered into between 2 people. There is no chronological age designated. However both parties must be physically, mentally and financially capable of fullfilling the requirements of the Nikkah.

It can take several years of negotiation before a Nikkah is agreed upon and both parties are ready to sign it.

A woman is required to have a wali assist her in writing her Nikkah for her first marriage. The purpose of the wali is to be certain that the girl is not cheated or coerced into the marriage.

There are many restrictions regarding who can enter into a Nikkah and there are mandatory clauses that must be included in the Nikkah also both parties are free to add clauses that they desire such as the woman can state what type of house the husband is to provide her with, the amount of monthly allowance the husband must provide for household expenses, what the settlement will be if either party desires to terminate the contract. How much of a dower the husband is to give the wife, (A smart wife will specify this to be sufficiently large that the Husband will need his entire lifetime to pay it off. That serves as a clause that in the event the husband dies everything he owns goes to the wife to satisfy the dower, before inheritance is calculated)

While it is permissable for people that have agreed upon a nikkah to have sexual relations it does not necessarily mean there will be sexual relations. However, if a marriage is not consummated within 3 months after the Nikkah signing either party may declare the contract voided, at anytime. In Pakistan it is somewhat a common practice for children to enter into a nikkah for the purpose of uniting families (this has to do with wealth distribution) there is never any intent of sexual relations and when the children get older they declare the Nikkah void and each ends up marrying somebody else.

It is true that among the Pakistan Punjab there are those who misuse the Nikkah and you get old goats who actually want a child bride.

As Pakistan is majority Punjab it will be difficult for Pakistan to ever get a majority consensus to establish a minimum age for marriage. A minimum age requirement need not violate Islamic law as it is required that both parties must be financially and physically capable of fulfilling the Nikkah, in today's world it is nearly impossible for a child to do that.

Some conditions that must be satisfied for the Nikkah to be Islamically valid.

1. It must be entered into of one's own free will
2. The Nikkah must not cause physical harm to either party.
3. Both parties must be capable of understanding the contract and must be able to add any clauses they desire (They must be knowledgeable of their options)

This is not an issue confined to Muslims only in Pakistan

Quote:
In recent years, the two religious have started groups in several villages of the diocese, where they present the pros and cons of marriage contracted during adolescence to Christian, Hindu and Sikh families.
INDIA Punjab Sisters against tradition of child brides
It also is not confined to Pakistan. It even happens in the UUSA and is not limited to Muslims

Quote:
Forced and child marriages happen almost everywhere, yet only 10 states or jurisdictions have specific laws that can be used to prevent or punish forced marriage. The Tahirih survey focused on immigrants, and it identified child marriages or forced marriages, or both, in immigrant communities from 56 countries of origin in Africa, Asia, Europe and the Americas, but it also identified such marriage in so-called American families.

The survey found child marriage or forced marriage, or both, in families of many faiths, including Muslim, Christian (particularly Catholic), Hindu, Buddhist and Sikh. I have seen child and forced marriage in the Orthodox Jewish community, and I know survivors from Mormon and Unification Church backgrounds.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/14/op...e-problem.html
While this does occur among some Muslim, primarily among the Punjab from Pakistan, it is not a religious issue it is not confined to any specific group. It is an issue of child-abuse world wide.

If a Muslim were to follow the Qur'an and adhere to actual Sharia, it would not occur among Muslims, Just as it would not occur among Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, and Buddhist as they all have restrictions that forbid children to be abused and mistreated.
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Old 01-17-2016, 09:25 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Marriage in Islam is not quite the same as marriage in Christianity or western marriages in general.

Nikkah is a contract entered into between 2 people. There is no chronological age designated. However both parties must be physically, mentally and financially capable of fullfilling the requirements of the Nikkah.

It can take several years of negotiation before a Nikkah is agreed upon and both parties are ready to sign it.

A woman is required to have a wali assist her in writing her Nikkah for her first marriage. The purpose of the wali is to be certain that the girl is not cheated or coerced into the marriage.

There are many restrictions regarding who can enter into a Nikkah and there are mandatory clauses that must be included in the Nikkah also both parties are free to add clauses that they desire such as the woman can state what type of house the husband is to provide her with, the amount of monthly allowance the husband must provide for household expenses, what the settlement will be if either party desires to terminate the contract. How much of a dower the husband is to give the wife, (A smart wife will specify this to be sufficiently large that the Husband will need his entire lifetime to pay it off. That serves as a clause that in the event the husband dies everything he owns goes to the wife to satisfy the dower, before inheritance is calculated)

While it is permissable for people that have agreed upon a nikkah to have sexual relations it does not necessarily mean there will be sexual relations. However, if a marriage is not consummated within 3 months after the Nikkah signing either party may declare the contract voided, at anytime. In Pakistan it is somewhat a common practice for children to enter into a nikkah for the purpose of uniting families (this has to do with wealth distribution) there is never any intent of sexual relations and when the children get older they declare the Nikkah void and each ends up marrying somebody else.

It is true that among the Pakistan Punjab there are those who misuse the Nikkah and you get old goats who actually want a child bride.

As Pakistan is majority Punjab it will be difficult for Pakistan to ever get a majority consensus to establish a minimum age for marriage. A minimum age requirement need not violate Islamic law as it is required that both parties must be financially and physically capable of fulfilling the Nikkah, in today's world it is nearly impossible for a child to do that.

Some conditions that must be satisfied for the Nikkah to be Islamically valid.

1. It must be entered into of one's own free will
2. The Nikkah must not cause physical harm to either party.
3. Both parties must be capable of understanding the contract and must be able to add any clauses they desire (They must be knowledgeable of their options)

This is not an issue confined to Muslims only in Pakistan


It also is not confined to Pakistan. It even happens in the UUSA and is not limited to Muslims



While this does occur among some Muslim, primarily among the Punjab from Pakistan, it is not a religious issue it is not confined to any specific group. It is an issue of child-abuse world wide.

If a Muslim were to follow the Qur'an and adhere to actual Sharia, it would not occur among Muslims, Just as it would not occur among Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, and Buddhist as they all have restrictions that forbid children to be abused and mistreated.
It is very sad that Muslims refuse to come out and say that Muhammed was evil to have sex with a child. That should be a no-brainer. Instead we have the twisted rationalizations and false denials and 'you too' arguments.

The bottom line is that Muhammed, at 53 years old, had sex with a 9 year old child who was still playing with dolls and swinging with her playmates. Muhammed is, per Allah, the example of perfect conduct for Muslims.

That no Muslim will say that Muhammed was bad/evil to do this speaks volumes about Islam.
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Old 01-17-2016, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Marriage in Islam is not quite the same as marriage in Christianity or western marriages in general.

Nikkah is a contract entered into between 2 people. There is no chronological age designated. However both parties must be physically, mentally and financially capable of fullfilling the requirements of the Nikkah.
As usual you insist marriage in Islam is different from others.
Do you imply it is a more superior approach.


All males and females of higher living things are driven to get together to mate and produce the next generation to ensure the preservation of the specie. Animals will f..k wherever and whenever their instincts drive them to do so.
Humans on the other hand have been progressing with greater & higher moral standards and more attention to empathy, compassion and practical considerations to the parties in a marriage.
This is why countries all over the world are raising the legal marriage age [with rare exceptions] but most Muslim majority countries do not have legal marriage age limit because their religion Islam do not permit them to do so.


Quote:
It also is not confined to Pakistan. It even happens in the UUSA and is not limited to Muslims

While this does occur among some Muslim, primarily among the Punjab from Pakistan, it is not a religious issue it is not confined to any specific group. It is an issue of child-abuse world wide.

If a Muslim were to follow the Qur'an and adhere to actual Sharia, it would not occur among Muslims, Just as it would not occur among Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, and Buddhist as they all have restrictions that forbid children to be abused and mistreated.
I agree there are child abuses all over the world but they are committed against the Law.
I understand there are exceptions in the US [and elsewhere] where a lower age limit is legal for some groups of people but I understand this is not exploited by the majority of those who are entitled to it. Because such laws are not immutable, pressure groups and common human sense will prevail to remove such exceptions in time.


In the case of the OP in Pakistan, the Muslims involved in thwarting the bill are using the pressure of religious Laws [emotional threats] of the majority to stop the secular Law to increase the legal marriage age. This is obviously an issue with religious connotations. As long as Pakistan is a majority Muslims country and that the Laws of Allah are immutable, the legal marriage age will not be increased to a morally acceptable limit.


In this case, Islam indirectly condones child abuses [in the case of child marriages] because it has no room for Muslims to be more humane in extending empathy and compassion to young children who are vulnerable to be abused and harmed by a natural % of evil prone Muslims. Again the proof of this is glaringly evident.
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Old 01-18-2016, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,299,862 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As usual you insist marriage in Islam is different from others.
Do you imply it is a more superior approach.


All males and females of higher living things are driven to get together to mate and produce the next generation to ensure the preservation of the specie. Animals will f..k wherever and whenever their instincts drive them to do so.
Humans on the other hand have been progressing with greater & higher moral standards and more attention to empathy, compassion and practical considerations to the parties in a marriage.
This is why countries all over the world are raising the legal marriage age [with rare exceptions] but most Muslim majority countries do not have legal marriage age limit because their religion Islam do not permit them to do so.


I agree there are child abuses all over the world but they are committed against the Law.
I understand there are exceptions in the US [and elsewhere] where a lower age limit is legal for some groups of people but I understand this is not exploited by the majority of those who are entitled to it. Because such laws are not immutable, pressure groups and common human sense will prevail to remove such exceptions in time.


In the case of the OP in Pakistan, the Muslims involved in thwarting the bill are using the pressure of religious Laws [emotional threats] of the majority to stop the secular Law to increase the legal marriage age. This is obviously an issue with religious connotations. As long as Pakistan is a majority Muslims country and that the Laws of Allah are immutable, the legal marriage age will not be increased to a morally acceptable limit.


In this case, Islam indirectly condones child abuses [in the case of child marriages] because it has no room for Muslims to be more humane in extending empathy and compassion to young children who are vulnerable to be abused and harmed by a natural % of evil prone Muslims. Again the proof of this is glaringly evident.
I am implying an Islamic marriage is different from a Western Religious marriage. It is more similar to a business contract and both parties get to place in clauses of what they will contribute and expect the other party to contribute. The Nikkah can be quite difficult to negotiate and if a couple do not come to mutual agreements, they do not sign the Nikkah.


It is not "glaringly evident" that Islam indirectly condones child abuse as the misuse of the Nikkah occurs almost exclusively among a single specific group, Punjabi, and is equally done among the non-Muslim Punjabi. It reflects Punjab culture not Islam.
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Old 01-18-2016, 08:06 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am implying an Islamic marriage is different from a Western Religious marriage. It is more similar to a business contract ....
Aisha said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old.(Sunan Abu Dawud, Number 2116)

Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298)

Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad:
(on the authority of his father) 'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299; see also Number 300)

Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 7, book 62, number 17

Narrated jabir bin 'abdullah:
When I got married, Allah's apostle said to me, "what type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron." he said, "why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's apostle said, "why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?"

Sahih Bukhari volume 1, book 4, number 231:
Narrated Sulaiman bin Aasar:
I asked 'Aisha about the clothes soiled with semen. She replied, "i used to wash it off the clothes of Allah's apostle and he would go for the prayer while water spots were still visible. "

Bukhari (62:6)

"The prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives."

Every night was an orgy for Muhammed!!

Muhammad taught that Islamic marriage is based upon a "marriage contract". A man is to give the wife a dowry as part of the arrangement. This dowry literally buys the man the right to manage and control his wife, and buys him the right to her sexual organs. This marriage contract is definitely not an "until death do us part" contract, rather the marriage is based on performance and desire. When the man no longer desires the woman he can divorce her as Muhammad did with Sauda.

"Muta Marriage" is a short term contractual relationship, lasting hours or a few days, where the man gives something of value to a woman and they "marry" and engage in sex for an agreed length of time. Once the contractual time expires the marriage is over and they go their own ways. This is legalized Islamic prostitution. Men get satisfaction and women get something of value, be it money, or clothing, or even a Quranic recital.

Narrated Abdullah: We used to participate in the holy wars carried on by the Prophet and we had no women (wives) with us. So we said (to the Prophet ). "Shall we castrate ourselves?" But the Prophet forbade us to do that and thenceforth he allowed us to marry a woman (temporarily) by giving her even a garment, and then he recited: "O you who believe! Do not make unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you." Bukhari: Volume 6, Book 60, Number 139.
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Old 01-19-2016, 02:53 AM
 
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The marriage is holy by its vow, which guarantees the well-beings for the both two parties. And to accomplish that, the two consent parties shall be.

The Islamic laws of the child marriages were probably from the biblical verse of "...little children I am married with thee". It shall be the good intention of the MOST HIGH, such as a law from the Levi of presenting the firstborns.

Basically, we were all children before. We all knew being consented having no parts in the childhood.
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Old 01-19-2016, 01:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by CPPU12345 View Post
The marriage is holy by its vow, which guarantees the well-beings for the both two parties. And to accomplish that, the two consent parties shall be.

The Islamic laws of the child marriages were probably from the biblical verse of "...little children I am married with thee". It shall be the good intention of the MOST HIGH, such as a law from the Levi of presenting the firstborns.

Basically, we were all children before. We all knew being consented having no parts in the childhood.
Nope. the Islamic practice of 'marrying' and then raping little children comes from the example Muhammed set with Aisha and also from the Quran.

Aisha said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old.(Sunan Abu Dawud, Number 2116) And many other verses. Do I need to post them again?

From the Quran:
While discussing divorce it refers to conditions that divorce applies to a child who has not yet menstruated, i.e. for a pre-pubescent child. The reference is found in Sura 65:4 in a list of regulations concerning the waiting period (the Iddah or Iddat) for divorced women before they can remarry. The verse deals systematically with different cases of women who for some reason are not having regular periods. It reads:

"And of those of your (older) women who have given up hope of menstruating, if you doubt, their (waiting) period is three months, as well as those who do not menstruate (pre-pubescent ). And those who are pregnant, their period is until they deliver their burdens." (Sura 65:4)

This verse systematically covers the three main cases where a female is not menstruating: the old, the very young (pre-pubescent ), and those who are pregnant.
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Old 01-20-2016, 02:24 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
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Either a parody or an idiot.
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