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Old 01-17-2016, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Many Muslims will not agree with this thread, as we are not to do or say anything about Muhammad(saws) that could be misconstrued as worship or suggesting that Muhammad(saws) was greater than any other Prophet(PBUT)

While there are different titles for different Prophets(PBUT), they are all considered to be equal and all died free from sin.

While I can not find any instances in the Qur'an, Ahadith, Sunnah or historical fact that Muhammad(saws) ever committed any sins or did any evil deeds, it does not matter as his prophet-hood removed all sin and He was sinless by the Mercy and Grace of Allaah(swt)


But besides that all factual evidence regarding Muhammad(saws) indicates he was a very compassionate man who loved all people and never treated any one unfairly.

The 40 Al-Qudsi Ahadith are the best indicator of the type of person He was. They can be read here.

40 Hadith Qudsi - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (??? ???? ???? ? ???)

By looking upon Muhammad(saws) as an example of a perfect Muslim I have learned and do my best to demonstrate and live my life to obey the following:

1. All people are to be treated equally
2. We must honor all agreements we make with all people
3. Women are to be protected and treated with dignity and respected in all matters.
4. Women are equal to Men in the eyes of Allaah(swt)
5. All life is to be treated with kindness. We must never deliberately cause suffering of any animal nor even needlessly damage plants
6. The Man who will receive the greatest rewards are the men that are good to their wives, mothers and daughters.
7. We must be moderate in all matters and never be the aggressor
8.We must be willing to forgive those who harm us.
9. We must desire for all people, more than what we desire for our self.
10. It is only through the Mercy of Allaah(swt) that we can reach heaven (Jannah)
11. We must share our wealth with those who have less than us.
12. We must not force our beliefs upon others
13. We must not prevent others from worshiping or not worshiping as they believe
14. We must first try to find justification for another person's actions and avoid assuming evil intent on their part.
15. We must enjoy life and be thankful for what we have been given

That is what I have learned from using Muhammad(saws) as an example and why I love him deeply and will not believe the lies spread by some malicious and/or misinformed people.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 01-17-2016 at 05:53 PM..
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Old 01-17-2016, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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I'll leave it to Juju [who is very competent at it] to deal with the various flaws of Muhammad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That is what I have learned from using Muhammad(saws) as an example and why I love him deeply and will not believe the lies spread by some malicious and/or misinformed people.
"Love" is merely an emotion albeit generally a positive one but can be very negative if taken to the extreme.
For example a mother who love her child so much that she will do anything based on her own ignorance or the child's wishes to the ultimate detriment of the child. Note the many cases of spoilt kids who ended up with all sort of crimes committed by the child. There is the mother who loved the child so much and fed the child to obesity and its negative consequences.


I believe 'loving' Muhammad is some form of idolization and a form of hero-worshipping.
In general such 'loving' the guru or messenger can be a hindrance to one's spiritual growth.


From a neuro-psychological perspective what is going in the mind with loving the founder of one's religion is followed by an active emotion of 'love' which is from the lower limbic brain with attachment to some image with concepts.
This can be scientifically demonstrated with fMRI imaging.
What one is loving is merely an image and concepts [i.e. mental idols] and not any real person like a mother and child or between lovers [which one to be cautious of being excessive].


Mental idolization is no different from those who idolize statues [physical] because both involve the same neural circuits in the brain that involve images and concepts with the triggering of the emotions of 'love'. The only extra element is the physical idols or things.


Therefore while Islam condemn the idolization [physically], Muslims themselves are involved in idolization [mental] when they love [emotion] Muhammad as merely based on an image and concepts.


There is no immediate negativity with idolization [physically]and mental idolization of images and concepts. The real problem is if the believers are evil prone [naturally 20% of Muslims] and the related concepts of the images are evil laden [exists in the Quran and martial ethos of Muhammad].

In the continuum of spiritual progress, physical idolization is kindergarten, mental-images idolization is lower grade school, doctrinal/principles idolization is college level.
At the PhD level of spirituality there is no idolization at all plus no emotional attachments to any thing, i.e. one just live spontaneously with optimality.


This is why in the case of Buddhism and Zen they have the saying;
"If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him"
Of course this is not literally but the implications is one should not be attached to things, images of even one's guru or founder of the religion.
Love being an emotion is active at the lower levels of the mind. To be more spiritual a person need to engage more the higher faculties of the human brain to be more progressive and contribute effectively to the well being of humanity.

Last edited by Continuum; 01-17-2016 at 11:16 PM..
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Old 01-18-2016, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,323,236 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I'll leave it to Juju [who is very competent at it] to deal with the various flaws of Muhammad.


"Love" is merely an emotion albeit generally a positive one but can be very negative if taken to the extreme.
For example a mother who love her child so much that she will do anything based on her own ignorance or the child's wishes to the ultimate detriment of the child. Note the many cases of spoilt kids who ended up with all sort of crimes committed by the child. There is the mother who loved the child so much and fed the child to obesity and its negative consequences.


I believe 'loving' Muhammad is some form of idolization and a form of hero-worshipping.
In general such 'loving' the guru or messenger can be a hindrance to one's spiritual growth.


From a neuro-psychological perspective what is going in the mind with loving the founder of one's religion is followed by an active emotion of 'love' which is from the lower limbic brain with attachment to some image with concepts.
This can be scientifically demonstrated with fMRI imaging.
What one is loving is merely an image and concepts [i.e. mental idols] and not any real person like a mother and child or between lovers [which one to be cautious of being excessive].


Mental idolization is no different from those who idolize statues [physical] because both involve the same neural circuits in the brain that involve images and concepts with the triggering of the emotions of 'love'. The only extra element is the physical idols or things.


Therefore while Islam condemn the idolization [physically], Muslims themselves are involved in idolization [mental] when they love [emotion] Muhammad as merely based on an image and concepts.


There is no immediate negativity with idolization [physically]and mental idolization of images and concepts. The real problem is if the believers are evil prone [naturally 20% of Muslims] and the related concepts of the images are evil laden [exists in the Quran and martial ethos of Muhammad].

In the continuum of spiritual progress, physical idolization is kindergarten, mental-images idolization is lower grade school, doctrinal/principles idolization is college level.
At the PhD level of spirituality there is no idolization at all plus no emotional attachments to any thing, i.e. one just live spontaneously with optimality.


This is why in the case of Buddhism and Zen they have the saying;
"If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him"
Of course this is not literally but the implications is one should not be attached to things, images of even one's guru or founder of the religion.
Love being an emotion is active at the lower levels of the mind. To be more spiritual a person need to engage more the higher faculties of the human brain to be more progressive and contribute effectively to the well being of humanity.
The love of Muhammad(saws) in Islam is quite similar to the Love a Buddhist has of Buddha. Muhammad(saws) was quite adamant we were not to revere him, make pictures of him, glorify his grave etc. We are not even to remember his birthday.

The love for him is for the message he was given and for the example he set.
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Old 01-18-2016, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The love of Muhammad(saws) in Islam is quite similar to the Love a Buddhist has of Buddha. Muhammad(saws) was quite adamant we were not to revere him, make pictures of him, glorify his grave etc. We are not even to remember his birthday.

The love for him is for the message he was given and for the example he set.
You missed the essence of this phrase I posted above, i.e.


"If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him"

The message reflect one of the core principles of Buddhism, i.e. "non-attachment" of anything in the sense of psychological and emotional bonding. At most a Buddhist should do is to practice the teachings of what the Buddha delivered. This is a rational basis of recognition and acknowledgement the teaching will benefit the well being of the individual and therefrom humanity.


As with the Bell Curve there will by default a distribution of a range of degrees of psychological states between Buddhists. Those Buddhists at the kindergarten levels [lay Buddhists] are likely to idolize, love and have all sorts of positive feelings for the Buddha to the extent to praying to the statutes of Buddha which is not part of Buddhism proper.


Whilst Buddhism itself do not recognize such feelings of attachment and bonding for the Buddha [a myth], it has the empathy and compassion to allow such 'lowly' practices because they are optimal for those at the kindergarten level. This is acceptance is with the hope they will progress to the higher levels of Buddhism proper. If they don't progress, something spiritual and better than nothing.


So to correct your perception of Buddhism proper; in principle there is no room for the feeling of 'love' even for the message of the Buddha. This point is exemplified in the Parable of the Raft wherein the message of the Buddha is like a raft, when one has crossed the river, then it is of no use once the purpose is accomplished [to emphasis not attachment]. This does not mean one cannot feel and express love, but one must do it mindfully and skillfully.


In the Quran, assigning partner and association for Allah is an unpardonable sin.
However with the Ahadiths, most Muslims are seduced into their inherent very powerful feeling of love [bonding] for Muhammad.
Therefore when you used the term 'love' you could be drawn into this feeling of bonding with the image and concepts of Muhammad.




Woodrow LI: "The love for him is for the message he was given and for the example he set."
I think you are wrong here. It is not the message of Muhammad but the message of Allah. Muhammad was merely a hifi system with loudspeaker for Allah to deliver his message to Muslims. Muhammad was merely chosen as a warner, one who remind, a conveyor of Allah's message.


I know will deny it, but the reality is Muhammad did not set good examples with ALL his deeds in his life, especially after the hijrah to Medina with the terrible evils & violence he committed and his examples of lust and marrying a 6 six year old girl. As an exemplar Muhammad should have been the 'better man' with the highest moral standards regardless of whatever the custom was at that time.


The statement you used earlier, i.e.
Woodrow LI: "That is what I have learned from using Muhammad(saws) as an example and why I love him deeply and will not believe the lies spread by some malicious and/or misinformed people. "


"I love him deeply" obviously reflect feelings of emotional love for the person.
This can be proven if we put you in a fMRI machine and seeing which part of the brain is activated when you make that statement of 'love.'
Science of love: It really is all in the mind, say experts | Science | News | The Independent

Some information on idolization and the brain;
http://www.wired.com/2004/10/brain-4/



In the OP you mentioned 'love and respect' which also implied a feeling of emotional love for Muhammad and respecting his message and his stature as the messenger.


The following banner and message of love for Muhammad is very common wherever there are Muslims.





Such expression of feelings are definitely emotional love for the images and the concept of the person. This is obviously idolization induced from the Ahadiths.
So those Muslims who express 'love' for Muhammad do not realize [are ignorant of the neuroscientific basis] they are idolizing Muhammad which is a great sin of Islam in accordance to the Quran.


SOME [the 20% evil prone Muslims] love Muhammad so much they get insulted when cartoons are drawn of Muhammad, they go on the rampage to commit terrible evils and violence onto to innocent non-Muslims. Some love Muhammad so much that they follow his examples of subjugation, imperialism, killing of non-Muslims and other evils as he complied with the evil laden verses in the Quran.


My point:
Loving Muhammad is a form of idolization, i.e. idolization of mental images and concepts rather than some physical object.

Last edited by Continuum; 01-18-2016 at 10:36 PM..
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Old 01-19-2016, 01:53 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,593,506 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slamiyyaat View Post
Prophet Muhammad preaches that one must love the Creator more than everything else.
You are not responding to the OP.


Should Muslims love and respect Muhammad?
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Old 01-19-2016, 02:49 AM
 
9,981 posts, read 8,227,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Many Muslims will not agree with this thread, as we are not to do or say anything about Muhammad(saws) that could be misconstrued as worship or suggesting that Muhammad(saws) was greater than any other Prophet(PBUT)

While there are different titles for different Prophets(PBUT), they are all considered to be equal and all died free from sin.

While I can not find any instances in the Qur'an, Ahadith, Sunnah or historical fact that Muhammad(saws) ever committed any sins or did any evil deeds, it does not matter as his prophet-hood removed all sin and He was sinless by the Mercy and Grace of Allaah(swt)


But besides that all factual evidence regarding Muhammad(saws) indicates he was a very compassionate man who loved all people and never treated any one unfairly.

The 40 Al-Qudsi Ahadith are the best indicator of the type of person He was. They can be read here.

40 Hadith Qudsi - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (??? ???? ???? ? ???)

By looking upon Muhammad(saws) as an example of a perfect Muslim I have learned and do my best to demonstrate and live my life to obey the following:

1. All people are to be treated equally
2. We must honor all agreements we make with all people
3. Women are to be protected and treated with dignity and respected in all matters.
4. Women are equal to Men in the eyes of Allaah(swt)
5. All life is to be treated with kindness. We must never deliberately cause suffering of any animal nor even needlessly damage plants
6. The Man who will receive the greatest rewards are the men that are good to their wives, mothers and daughters.
7. We must be moderate in all matters and never be the aggressor
8.We must be willing to forgive those who harm us.
9. We must desire for all people, more than what we desire for our self.
10. It is only through the Mercy of Allaah(swt) that we can reach heaven (Jannah)
11. We must share our wealth with those who have less than us.
12. We must not force our beliefs upon others
13. We must not prevent others from worshiping or not worshiping as they believe
14. We must first try to find justification for another person's actions and avoid assuming evil intent on their part.
15. We must enjoy life and be thankful for what we have been given

That is what I have learned from using Muhammad(saws) as an example and why I love him deeply and will not believe the lies spread by some malicious and/or misinformed people.
Then explain the rapes, sexual assaults, and physical attacks across parts of Europe by Muslim men against non-Muslim men and women and publicly (on video) state they are justified in these actions by the Quran and are backed by their religious leaders.
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Old 01-19-2016, 05:10 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
Then explain the rapes, sexual assaults, and physical attacks across parts of Europe by Muslim men against non-Muslim men and women and publicly (on video) state they are justified in these actions by the Quran and are backed by their religious leaders.
What does that have to do with how I feel?


Yes, I am very much against those who commit such horrific acts. But that has nothing to do with this topic.

Now to stay on topic explain why you love and respect Muhammad(saws).

That is the purpose of this thread, so that Muslims can post on it their feelings about Muhammad.

As I said my feelings are against what most Muslims feel we should express and slamiyyaat posted what is probably what the majority of Muslims agree with.

I did state in the OP many Muslims will not agree with me.
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Old 01-19-2016, 11:30 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 755,890 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

1. All people are to be treated equally
2. We must honor all agreements we make with all people
3. Women are to be protected and treated with dignity and respected in all matters.
4. Women are equal to Men in the eyes of Allaah(swt)
5. All life is to be treated with kindness. We must never deliberately cause suffering of any animal nor even needlessly damage plants
6. The Man who will receive the greatest rewards are the men that are good to their wives, mothers and daughters.
7. We must be moderate in all matters and never be the aggressor
8.We must be willing to forgive those who harm us.
9. We must desire for all people, more than what we desire for our self.
10. It is only through the Mercy of Allaah(swt) that we can reach heaven (Jannah)
11. We must share our wealth with those who have less than us.
12. We must not force our beliefs upon others
13. We must not prevent others from worshiping or not worshiping as they believe
14. We must first try to find justification for another person's actions and avoid assuming evil intent on their part.
15. We must enjoy life and be thankful for what we have been given

That is what I have learned from using Muhammad(saws) as an example and why I love him deeply and will not believe the lies spread by some malicious and/or misinformed people.
The 'lies' this guy refers to are direct quotes from the Quran and hadiths. Let's look at those direct quotes as compared to the claims:

1. All people are to be treated equally

In fact, Muhammed owned and traded slaves and sold women and gave them to his men as booty and said women were not equal to men:

There came a slave and pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) on migration; he (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man) (Sahih Muslim 3901).

"Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham/Hisham 693)
The apostle gave Ali a girl called Rayta; and he gave Uthman a girl called Zaynab; and he gave Umar a girl whom Umar gave to his son Abdullah. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 878)

Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

Owning slaves is not treating all people equal. Selling women is not treating people equal. Handing pout women like party favors is not treating people equal. Saying women are deficient in intelligence and are not equal as witnesses is not equal treatment. There are many more examples, but I do not want to spend all day here.

2. We must honor all agreements we make with all people

Not according to Muhammed.

By Allah, and Allah willing, if I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’" (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 67, Number 427)

Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Samura:
The Prophet said, "O 'Abdur-Rahman! Do not seek to be a ruler, for if you are given authority on your demand then you will be held responsible for it, but if you are given it without asking (for it), then you will be helped (by Allah) in it. If you ever take an oath to do something and later on you find that something else is better, then you should expiate your oath and do what is better." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 89, Number 260)

Al-Tabari's (838-923 AD) Tafsir, or Quranic exegeses, is essentially a standard reference in the entire Muslim world. Regarding 3:28, he wrote: "If you [Muslims] are under their [infidels'] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them, with your tongue, while harbouring inner animosity for them... Allah has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels in place of believers – except when infidels are above them [in authority]. In such a scenario, let them act friendly towards them."

Regarding 3:28, the Islamic scholar Ibn Kathir (1301-1373) wrote: "Whoever at any time or place fears their [infidels'] evil, may protect himself through outward show."

Breaking oaths because something better comes along is not 'honoring all agreements we make with all people.' Pretense at friendship to gain confidence while secretly hating is not "honoring all agreements we make with all people."

3. Women are to be protected and treated with dignity and respected in all matters.

This is pretty much laughable.

The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim3433)

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.”(Sahih Muslim 4345)

Quran (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

4. Women are equal to Men in the eyes of Allaah(swt)

We've already seen how this works....rape women, beat them, hand them out like party favors. But here is some more:

Tabari 1:280 "Allah said, 'It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.' Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid."

Bukhari (72:715) - "Aisha said, 'I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women'"

Abu-Dawud, Book 11: Number 2142:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:
The Prophet said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.

Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176).

Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

And much more.

5. All life is to be treated with kindness. We must never deliberately cause suffering of any animal nor even needlessly damage plants

Welllll.....no. We have already seen that from the quotes above from the Quran and hadiths. But let's look at animals. And then torture.

From Bukhari Vol. 4, #540
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle ordered that the dogs should be killed.

From Abu Dawud #2839
Abd Allah B. Mughaffal reported the apostle of Allah as saying: Were dogs not a species of creature I should command that they all be killed; but kill every pure black one.

From Muslim #5248

Maimuna reported that one morning Allah’s Messenger was silent with grief. Maimuna said: Allah’s Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah’s Messenger said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me tonight, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises, and Allah’s Messenger spent the day in this sad mood. Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He commanded and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it at that place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: You promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. Then on that very morning he commanded the killing of the dogs until he announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog meant for the protection of extensive fields or big gardens.

To this day Muslims hate dogs.

Narrated Anas bin Malik:
A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you should join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died (Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, "They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.") (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261)

There are many stories of Muhammed's love for horrible torture.

6. The Man who will receive the greatest rewards are the men that are good to their wives, mothers and daughters.

Muhammed hit Aisha, his child sex toy and 'wife':

Muslim (4:2127) - Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

We saw above that men can beat their wives. They can also rape them:

The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says:
Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like

Also, Muslim men can cheat on their wives with the blessing of Allah....they can rape their slaves and captive women!

"We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

7. We must be moderate in all matters and never be the aggressor

Is this a joke??

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them (9:5)
The words, “when the forbidden months are past,” precludes the possibility that this was a matter of self-defense.

We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried, “Muhammad with his force,” and turned tail and fled… The apostle seized the property piece by piece… (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

When the apostle raided a people he waited until the morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back; if he did not hear it he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night, and the apostle passed the night there; and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)

To be continued.
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Old 01-19-2016, 09:30 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,593,506 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As I said my feelings are against what most Muslims feel we should express and slamiyyaat posted what is probably what the majority of Muslims agree with.

I did state in the OP many Muslims will not agree with me.
My guess is the majority of Muslims [as lay Muslims] would have the same feelings like yours with variations in degrees.
Google 'love Muhammad' and you get 56,000,000. That is in English, there should be more in the Arabic and other Islamic communitities.


What slamiyyaat posted is a counter to redirect attention [love] to Allah which need some attention to the related verses.
However he did not comment on the OP topic, i.e. whether a Muslim should 'love' Muhammad or not.
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Old 01-19-2016, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,323,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
My guess is the majority of Muslims [as lay Muslims] would have the same feelings like yours with variations in degrees.
Google 'love Muhammad' and you get 56,000,000. That is in English, there should be more in the Arabic and other Islamic communitities.


What slamiyyaat posted is a counter to redirect attention [love] to Allah which need some attention to the related verses.
However he did not comment on the OP topic, i.e. whether a Muslim should 'love' Muhammad or not.
I do not recall asking if We Should love and Respect Muhammad(saws). I asked WHY do they. I also stated that many Muslims will disagree with my reasons.

If one understands the Qur'an and Ahadith literaly, the logical conclusion would be we are prohibited to.
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