Do you see Islam having its own "Reformation" and Age of Enlightenment some day?

[Woodrow LI]

Originally Posted by Mircea

Indonesia....More than 300 ethnic groups (and languages)....tribal based societies.

Pakistan....dozens of ethnic groups and languages...tribal based societies.

India (Although Muslims are a small minority in India, it has the 3rd largest Muslim population in the world)....more then 400 languages for the more than 400 ethnic groups organized as tribes.

Bangladesh....dozens of tribal groups.

Malaysia...137 languages and tribal groups.

China ...142 non-Han tribal groups/languages (Han Chinese are the majority).



But there's no homogeneity and no hierarchical structure, which is what helped foster a Reformation in Christianity (not to mention the hierarchy was heavily corrupted).

Even if tribal/clan divisions ceased to exist at this minute, unless the Caliphate is restored, I don't see any potential for an Islamic Reformation, and even then a Reformation would most likely occur in only one of the Sects.

Without widespread corruption in an Islamic Caliphate, it begs the question why a Reformation would be needed in the first place.

There is a greater likelihood that a new Islamic Sect would emerge, than there is for a Reformation.

There is very much wisdom in your last 4 sentences.

Most of us Muslims do not believe there will be world Peace until the entire world is under a unified, single, God(swt) ordained, Caliphate and that will not happen until the return of Jesus(a.s.) and the coming of the Mehdi.

[juju33312]

Originally Posted by Mircea

Indonesia....More than 300 ethnic groups (and languages)....tribal based societies.

Pakistan....dozens of ethnic groups and languages...tribal based societies.

India (Although Muslims are a small minority in India, it has the 3rd largest Muslim population in the world)....more then 400 languages for the more than 400 ethnic groups organized as tribes.

Bangladesh....dozens of tribal groups.

Malaysia...137 languages and tribal groups.

China ...142 non-Han tribal groups/languages (Han Chinese are the majority).



But there's no homogeneity and no hierarchical structure, which is what helped foster a Reformation in Christianity (not to mention the hierarchy was heavily corrupted).

Even if tribal/clan divisions ceased to exist at this minute, unless the Caliphate is restored, I don't see any potential for an Islamic Reformation, and even then a Reformation would most likely occur in only one of the Sects.

Without widespread corruption in an Islamic Caliphate, it begs the question why a Reformation would be needed in the first place.

There is a greater likelihood that a new Islamic Sect would emerge, than there is for a Reformation.

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

United States -- Muslim 1.0%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1%-2%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. ( United States ).

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris --car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam - Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:
Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

FrontPage Magazine - What Islam Isn't

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Woodrow LI

That carries with it the assumption Islam is an organization with some form of Hierarchy. There is no "Establishment" that is a hierarchy of Islam. There is no group that speaks for or represents all Muslims.

The problem is Islam is very dualistic in many aspects.
There is no one group that speaks for all Muslims but there are many groups [Sunni represent 80% of all Muslims] and sects that have their own interpretations of Islam and speak [establish laws, punish and kill] for their specific group.


The Quran do not expect Muslims to break into groups and sects but warn it will nevertheless happen in reality, e.g. Sunni versus Shia, various sects, various schools, etc.
And the reality is there are tons of evil laden verses in the Quran to inspire SOME evil prone Muslims within these groups to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and amongst themselves.
The reality is such divisions are not expected to disappear despite the Quran call for all Muslims to be one clinging to the cable of Allah.

One needs to look at Islam as being 1.7 billion individuals each responsible for their own actions. The question is not one of an Islamic Reformation but rather of a reformation of individuals. The vast majority of Muslims are Peaceful and non-aggressive.

As I mentioned above, Islam is by nature dualistic, in this case, both individuality and collective as expected in the Quran.
Muslims are supposed to help another to defend the religion and other Muslims with sanctions for non-Muslims to be killed and oppressed in the most terrible manner within vague justifications.


Yes only the individual can be reformed by oneself but Islam which is both inherently good and evil cannot be reformed due to its immutability condition by Allah. The inherent evil elements in the Quran and Islam will influence the inherent % of evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence. This is very real.

Yes, there are very many Muslims that do oppose those who do evil in the name of Islam. Oddly when we do fight against the evil doers we get condemned by the media and it is shown as "violent Muslims" fighting among them self.

Because Islam contain inherent evil elements within the Quran, we cannot accuse those Muslims who commit evil in accordance to the ordinations of the Quran as wrong in Allah's eyes.
Because of their natural evil tendencies and leaning, those who do evil in the name of Islam did not do anything wrong in the eyes of Islam. In fact they will be rewarded greatly as promised by Allah as stipulated in the Quran.
The point is when those who do good fight against the so-called doers, they are going against the Quran which sanction those acts which are deemed to be evil by others.

But all of this was foretold 1400 years ago we were warned there would be a group arising and they would wreck havoc among the earth, causing hatred of Muslims.

Groups like ISIS were not foretold in the Quran.

The Muslims in groups like ISIS are merely complying and carrying out their duty as Muslim in accordance to the terms and conditions of their covenant within the Quran.
If they act outside the scope of the Quran, then they are wrong. However they will insist they are complying with the Ahadiths of the Sunni.
Since there is no central authority, who is to decide the acts of ISIS and other groups are wrong if they have comply exactly to what is stipulated in the Quran and the Ahadiths.

If you have time please watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYedKXpb5mo

I have came across this video and heard it a few times.
The commentators therein are ignorant of 'What & Who is a Muslim' in accordance to the Quran.


I praise these commentators as better human beings in condemning the obvious evils committed by the likes of ISIS and ignoring the evil elements in the Quran.


However they do not have any divine authority to judge the Muslims of ISIS when they are complying with the dictates of the Quran and the Ahadiths. Only Allah can do the judgment on Judgment Day.


The point is we can be very sure the jihadists of ISIS and the likes are so fearful of Allah and Hell that they would NEVER dare to go against Allah's words in the Quran.
Therefore I am sure they will do their very best to comply with Allah's and Muhammad's intention as perfectly as possible. Because they are so pious and zealous they are likely to be forgiven by Allah if they slipped or sin unintentionally against the words of Allah.

Because the Quran contains both good and evil elements, those who comply with the good elements will be rewarded AND those who comply with the evil elements will also be rewarded because what they did are sanctioned by Allah in the Quran.


The Quran sanctioned the killing of non-Muslims, hypocrites and apostates if there are just reasons to do it.
The Muslims of ISIS and similar groups kill and behead non-Muslims because they [in their best effort to serve Allah] have just reasons to do so.
So who are you as a Muslim [me or any one] to judge them on behalf of Allah who is the final arbiter?


We as human beings can collectively judge the people of ISIS based on generic universal human values as 'evil' thus as sanctioned by the UN can kill them.
But in the eyes of Allah and his Quran, these Muslims of ISIS did not commit any sins and will be rewarded as martyrs. That is because of the dualistic nature of the Quran.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by juju33312

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. ( United States ).

You might want to look at the products you buy, because nearly everything is Kosher, conforming to Jewish Law.

Originally Posted by Continuum

The problem is Islam is very dualistic in many aspects.
There is no one group that speaks for all Muslims but there are many groups [Sunni represent 80% of all Muslims] and sects that have their own interpretations of Islam and speak [establish laws, punish and kill] for their specific group.

That has a great deal to do with the fact that nearly all Muslim States are clan-based or tribal societies.

The many violent wars in Europe for nearly 3,000 years forced clans and tribes to coalesce at an accelerated rate.

Such pressures were absent in those States that are Muslim.

[Continuum]

Originally Posted by Mircea

That has a great deal to do with the fact that nearly all Muslim States are clan-based or tribal societies.

You are wrong in this case on why there are the Sunni [80%] and Shia [10%+] Muslims.


The division of Sunni and Shia arose out of the greed for power between the direct family members of Muhammad and his close companions [including his wife] after the death of Muhammad. They were all of the same tribal society.
Subsequently even the same clans and tribes are divided within the two sects, just as we have Catholics and Protestant with the same family, clan or race.