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Old 01-20-2016, 09:04 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Does anyone forsee a day when brave people WITHIN Islam itself rise up and challenge "the establishment" which will lead to an age when critics can freely expressing their doubts and/or condemnation and eventually, relegating it to a place where Christianity is today?
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Old 01-20-2016, 09:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Does anyone forsee a day when brave people WITHIN Islam itself rise up and challenge "the establishment" which will lead to an age when critics can freely expressing their doubts and/or condemnation and eventually, relegating it to a place where Christianity is today?
No. That was something I thought may be possible before I spoke to thousands of 'moderate' Muslims. I could not find ONE Muslim who would speak against the evil things in Islam. You have seen that here. Not one will say Muhammed was wrong to do the evil things he did and not one will say anything is wrong with the Quran.

The ones who are willing to think objectively and apply reason simply leave Islam.

I also do not see 'moderate' Muslims stepping up to the plate against so-called 'radical Islam'. There are a few isolated incidents, but so few that they only underscore the point. And, are these few Muslims simply acting the part? They get a lot of positive mileage from media and the left for very little effort.

Muslims are not assimilating into Western countries, or cultures.

There is overwhelming incitement to hate and violence in the Quran and hadiths and very little, if any, wiggle room.

To reform Islam would mean tossing out Muhammed as a prophet because of the evil examples he set. That would be as likely as Christians tossing out Christ. The whole foundation is built on Muhammed and the god he created.

Muslims refuse to be honest, which is mandatory for reform. Even here we see that Muslims will not take an honest look at glaring evidence and accept reality.

The children of Muslims are brainwashed into Islam. No Muslims urge their children to explore other religions, or atheism, and assure them that it is OK for the child to make up their own mind.

Islam and it's followers have little interest in this life and are living for their paradise with Muhammed. This is a core belief in Islam and Muslims will not give it up.

Shariah Law would have to be rewritten to respect human rights, a concept that is foreign to Islam. The idea of a secular islam is a contradiction in terms. A whole new Islam would have to be created. "A reformed Islam is Islam no more."

The 'cheats' that do occur in Islam are kept as cheats. For example, most Muslims do not own slaves, yet none would suggest making laws that completely outlawed slavery and removed allowances of slavery in the Quran.

The whole philosophy of Islam rests on a huge scam. Muhammed started Islam (and wrote the Quran either by himself or with help) for the purpose of excusing his perversions and power lust. That people would fall for such a scam does not bode well for them realizing that it is a scam ... or even reforming that scam. The Quran is sacred to them and they think it is a direct word from god. This:
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” - Carl Sagan

This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA3xN5ptZXM

Most, if not all, Muslims hate that other Muslims who leave Islam and speak against it. I know quite a few ex-Muslims, and they are hated by their fellow Muslims. What chance would a Muslim who wanted to reform Islam have?

The nicest, most adorable Muslim thinks that disbelievers should be punished horribly by allah.

There is no NEED for Muslims to reform Islam. Muslims are literally getting away with murder. Political correctness shields them. Look at what is happening in Europe, yet still almost every country on earth welcomes Muslims! England, in the name of political correctness, shielded gangs of Muslim rapists who were raping hundreds of English children.
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Old 01-20-2016, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Alllah [God] claimed itself to be all powerful, all knowing thus infallible.
The Quran -the words of Allah is the sole representation of Islam.
Allah also pronounced the Quran [Allah's words] is complete, perfect, final and immutable [cannot be changed].
On this basis there is no room for Islam to be reformed.


A Muslim is an adherent of Islam [represented solely by the Quran].
Thus a true Muslim is one that comply fully with the ordinations of God in the Quran as obligated in the covenant the Muslim made with Allah.


I have researched on Islam [Quran] extensively and from my analysis, the jihadists are objectively the truer Muslims as they comply to a greater degree with the ordinations of Allah than the majority of Muslims.


There is no question of reformation of Islam, but for the majority of Muslims to be truer Muslims they must comply with the terms and conditions [within their capability] as ordained and obligated with their covenant. This is ugly as it would mean more terrible evils and violence to humanity.


Since Islam [complete and perfect] cannot be reformed, what is needed to be reformed are the Muslims who must reformed themselves to be better human beings and steer clear from the evil elements in the Quran.


There were no actual reformation with Christianity. There was in fact a reformation of the Christians as human being.
The early Christians went astray earlier into violence and away from the overriding maxim of Jesus to 'love one's enemies' and extend love to all everywhere.
The present Christians had reformed themselves by trying to stay at close as possible to the original maxims of the NT [Jesus] of love to all and even their enemies.


From the above arguments;
Islam [completes, perfected, immutable] cannot be reformed.
Only Muslims can transform themselves to be better human beings and steer clear from evil laden elements or leave Islam.
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Old 01-20-2016, 11:50 PM
 
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IMHO, I can gather this much, violent Islamic Jihadists are deceiving themselves. I highly doubt any of them will see the light of Heaven,.. in my opinion. I don't need to study any religious text to draw this confusion.
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Old 01-21-2016, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Does anyone forsee a day when brave people WITHIN Islam itself rise up and challenge "the establishment" which will lead to an age when critics can freely expressing their doubts and/or condemnation and eventually, relegating it to a place where Christianity is today?
That carries with it the assumption Islam is an organization with some form of Hierarchy. There is no "Establishment" that is a hierarchy of Islam. There is no group that speaks for or represents all Muslims.

One needs to look at Islam as being 1.7 billion individuals each responsible for their own actions. The question is not one of an Islamic Reformation but rather of a reformation of individuals. The vast majority of Muslims are Peaceful and non-aggressive.

Yes, there are very many Muslims that do oppose those who do evil in the name of Islam. Oddly when we do fight against the evil doers we get condemned by the media and it is shown as "violent Muslims" fighting among them self.

But all of this was foretold 1400 years ago we were warned there would be a group arising and they would wreck havoc among the earth, causing hatred of Muslims.

If you have time please watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYedKXpb5mo


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Old 01-21-2016, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Does anyone forsee a day when brave people WITHIN Islam itself rise up and challenge "the establishment" which will lead to an age when critics can freely expressing their doubts and/or condemnation and eventually, relegating it to a place where Christianity is today?
To some extent there was already a Reformation with the Sunni/Shi'a split.

You could argue that the Sunni/Shi'a split is more akin to the Great Schism (between the Imperial Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches).

Still, note that when the Reformation took place, Europe had coalesced from clan-based and tribal societies into supra-tribal groups on the verge of becoming nation-States...which they ultimately had done by the 1600's...see the Treaty of Westphalia.

There are what, about 36 Islamic States or States that have majority of Islamic worshipers, right?

All of those States

Afghanistan
Pakistan
Kyrgyzstan
Kazakhstan
Turkmenistan
Tajikistan
Iran
Iraq
Kuwait
Jordan
Saudi Arabia
Yemen
Qatar
Oman
UAE
Lebanon
Syria
Tunisia
Libya

and a number of Africa States (I forget which ones exactly) are all tribal/clan-based societies. Turkey, and possibly Egypt, are the only exceptions.

Bazu's allegiance is to his family, then his clan, then his tribe, then his ethnic group, which is Turkmen.

No matter how long and hard the US Media and Government scream that Bazu is an Iraqi, Bazu doesn't see himself that way.

That's why US and British Foreign Policy in MENA (Middle East/North Africa) has constantly failed.

It's also why you have this back-lash vis-a-vis "terrorism."

Non-interference will allow a normal progression of clans coalescing into tribes, which then grow into supra-tribes and then when you have an homogeneous population and government support, you might see a Reformation in Islam.
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Old 01-21-2016, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
To some extent there was already a Reformation with the Sunni/Shi'a split.

You could argue that the Sunni/Shi'a split is more akin to the Great Schism (between the Imperial Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches).

Still, note that when the Reformation took place, Europe had coalesced from clan-based and tribal societies into supra-tribal groups on the verge of becoming nation-States...which they ultimately had done by the 1600's...see the Treaty of Westphalia.

There are what, about 36 Islamic States or States that have majority of Islamic worshipers, right?

All of those States

Afghanistan
Pakistan
Kyrgyzstan
Kazakhstan
Turkmenistan
Tajikistan
Iran
Iraq
Kuwait
Jordan
Saudi Arabia
Yemen
Qatar
Oman
UAE
Lebanon
Syria
Tunisia
Libya

and a number of Africa States (I forget which ones exactly) are all tribal/clan-based societies. Turkey, and possibly Egypt, are the only exceptions.

Bazu's allegiance is to his family, then his clan, then his tribe, then his ethnic group, which is Turkmen.

No matter how long and hard the US Media and Government scream that Bazu is an Iraqi, Bazu doesn't see himself that way.

That's why US and British Foreign Policy in MENA (Middle East/North Africa) has constantly failed.

It's also why you have this back-lash vis-a-vis "terrorism."

Non-interference will allow a normal progression of clans coalescing into tribes, which then grow into supra-tribes and then when you have an homogeneous population and government support, you might see a Reformation in Islam.
There are 49 Muslim Majority Nations 75 % of the world's Muslims live in just 6 nations and are a minority in 2 of them

Those 6 Nations being:

Indonesia

Pakistan

India (Although Muslims are a small minority in India, it has the 3rd largest Muslim population in the world)

Bangladesh

Malaysia

China Although the Muslim population in China is a very small percentage of the population of China, there are more Chinese Muslims in the world than Arab Muslims.

While there are 49 Muslim Majority Nations, 44 of those Nations, contain only a small percentage of the world's Muslims. The Mideast only has a small percentage of the world's Muslims, but they are what most non-Muslims view as Islam
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 01-21-2016 at 12:30 PM..
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Old 01-21-2016, 12:18 PM
 
Location: New York City
5,556 posts, read 6,910,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That carries with it the assumption Islam is an organization with some form of Hierarchy. There is no "Establishment" that is a hierarchy of Islam. There is no group that speaks for or represents all Muslims.

One needs to look at Islam as being 1.7 billion individuals each responsible for their own actions. The question is not one of an Islamic Reformation but rather of a reformation of individuals. The vast majority of Muslims are Peaceful and non-aggressive.

Yes, there are very many Muslims that do oppose those who do evil in the name of Islam. Oddly when we do fight against the evil doers we get condemned by the media and it is shown as "violent Muslims" fighting among them self.

But all of this was foretold 1400 years ago we were warned there would be a group arising and they would wreck havoc among the earth, causing hatred of Muslims.

If you have time please watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYedKXpb5mo


I figured my use of the world "establishment" would be interpreted as such and I am sorry to have used it. I was trying to say, the established notions about Muhammad and the Koran. You know, like how actual Christian clerics and others within Christian Europe/America began to question items in the bible, leading to its removal from its lofty place.

I asked, in part, because there seems to be actual Muslims who have strong doubts about their beliefs, but for the most part, in many Muslim countries, they dare NOT challenge those established ideas. In the West, those ideas were challenged and continue to be challenged to the point where Christianity, in many places, is seen as a joke and not really taken serious and with each passing generation it loses more and more of its appeal. In Europe, it has become more a relic of the past than a force for the future.
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Old 01-21-2016, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
I figured my use of the world "establishment" would be interpreted as such and I am sorry to have used it. I was trying to say, the established notions about Muhammad and the Koran. You know, like how actual Christian clerics and others within Christian Europe/America began to question items in the bible, leading to its removal from its lofty place.

I asked, in part, because there seems to be actual Muslims who have strong doubts about their beliefs, but for the most part, in many Muslim countries, they dare NOT challenge those established ideas. In the West, those ideas were challenged and continue to be challenged to the point where Christianity, in many places, is seen as a joke and not really taken serious and with each passing generation it loses more and more of its appeal. In Europe, it has become more a relic of the past than a force for the future.

I personally feel that us Muslims are not only permitted to question all things we have an obligation to do so as we are not to believe anything we have not verified our self. As we carry personal

I currently have no contact with Mideastern Muslims and nearly all Muslims I personally know in the US are Asian.

Every Muslim I personally know has no problems with questioning all things.
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are 49 Muslim Majority Nations 75 % of the world's Muslims live in just 6 nations and are a minority in 2 of them

Those 6 Nations being:
Indonesia....More than 300 ethnic groups (and languages)....tribal based societies.

Pakistan....dozens of ethnic groups and languages...tribal based societies.

India (Although Muslims are a small minority in India, it has the 3rd largest Muslim population in the world)
....more then 400 languages for the more than 400 ethnic groups organized as tribes.

Bangladesh....dozens of tribal groups.

Malaysia
...137 languages and tribal groups.

China ...142 non-Han tribal groups/languages (Han Chinese are the majority).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While there are 49 Muslim Majority Nations, 44 of those Nations, contain only a small percentage of the world's Muslims. The Mideast only has a small percentage of the world's Muslims, but they are what most non-Muslims view as Islam
But there's no homogeneity and no hierarchical structure, which is what helped foster a Reformation in Christianity (not to mention the hierarchy was heavily corrupted).

Even if tribal/clan divisions ceased to exist at this minute, unless the Caliphate is restored, I don't see any potential for an Islamic Reformation, and even then a Reformation would most likely occur in only one of the Sects.

Without widespread corruption in an Islamic Caliphate, it begs the question why a Reformation would be needed in the first place.

There is a greater likelihood that a new Islamic Sect would emerge, than there is for a Reformation.
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