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Old 01-26-2016, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned View Post
Continuum, I don't know why you are bothering yourself posting about Islam?
As I had mentioned many times, as a concerned citizen of humanity I am perturbed by the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME [not all] Muslims.
These 'SOME' Muslims are adherents of the religion of Islam.
Therefore if I want to find out the root causes of those terrible evils I have to understand Islam thoroughly and in depth.
To understand Islam better I have discussed with others [especially Muslims] in regard to Islamic matters.
So far I find discussions in this forum very useful as I gather information and views of Islam from various posters and Woodrow LI have been very helpful.


Frankly I find Islam very inferior and distasteful because of all the condemnations of the kuffar in the Quran and a non-Muslim can easily feel that 'hatred' and 'contempt' by Muhammad when one read the Quran.
However because I want to understand why SOME Muslims commit terrible evils and violence I have no choice but to FORCE myself to spent time [a lot of my time] to understand Islam thoroughly and in depth.

Quote:
if you accept Islam then do what Muslims do. if Muslim told you that they believe in Hadith then you must believe the same way. that is it.
there is no contradiction between the logic on one hand and the Qur'an & ( True Hadith). Imam ibn Taymeah( Muslim Scholar) had authored a book under this topic. Also, the mere logic or Instinct Approve this. why because it is not acceptable from God to legislate/decree smth that can not be applied by his creations/ human beings.
What matter is the truth with reference to the specific matter. In this case it is Allah's truths.
Why should I accept what Muslims tell me?
Muslims [many sects] could be wrong in how they understand the words of Allah.


In PRINCIPLE [I hope you understand what this meant] a Muslims is an adherent of Islam.
What is Islam is represented by the words of Allah which at present is only in the Quran and no where else.


I give you one example of 'stoning to death for adultery.'
Now you tell me, did Allah ordain such a punishment?
There is no where in the Quran [as a rule] where Allah permit 'stoning to death for adultery.'
But Sharia insist Allah permit 'stoning to death for adultery.'
Since it is not in the Quran, then the Hadith on this 'stoning to death for adultery' is wrong.


The principle of the above example apply to all hadiths that are not in compliance with Allah's words in the Quran.


Now, if a hadith advocate the casting of terrors and killing of non-Muslims if Islam or Muslims are threatened, then, such a hadiths is in compliance with Allah's words as represented in various verses in the Quran.


So you see the PRINCIPLE?
If hadiths comply with Allah's words as in the Quran, then, it is Islamic and acceptable.
If hadiths DO NOT comply with Allah's words as in the Quran, then, it is NOT Islamic and NOT acceptable.




Quote:
So again, you cannot reject true hadiths based on your own methodology or philosophy or even your scientific approach if you are dealing with creeds. Creeds are adopted like this by faith if it was accepted by the instinct or Sense.
Can you show me where I am wrong in presenting an objective view [the principle above] of whether a hadith is true or not?


Creed?
If Islam is practiced privately and personally by ALL Muslims as a creed, there should be no issue.
But the reality is, SOME evil prone Muslims commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and even other Muslims when inspired by Islam, i.e. via the evil laden verses in the Quran.
Therefore a responsible human citizen must take note of that "creed" that interfered with the rights of others and committed terrible evils and violence.



Quote:
Again, you tried when you commented on Sruat Al-Najm to avoid the implication of the verse. what is so funny is that you even do not bother yourself looking for the explanation of that verse ? you just do what Media does (blakout )?
I have given my explanation 53:5 [Al Najem] is confined to the revelations of Allah, i.e. and nothing else.


Analogy:
When the CEO of a company announced to the employees, the General Manager [GM] will speak the truth, the implications is the GM will command as per the Standard Operating Manual [policy] of the company and no where else.
If the GM order his secretary to submit to his sexual lust, that is obviously outside the scope of his responsibility. That is due to his personal inclinations.


Similarly, whatever Muhammad command for Islam, it must be in accordance to the Quran and nothing else.
When the hadiths contain the rule 'stoning to death for adultery' [presume to be said by Muhammad] it is not Islamic because there is no such rule in the Quran.



Quote:
I find this way of fooling oneself is not encouraging for anyone to comment on your post.


note: Gathering arguments from here and there and posting them does not mean you confute the argument , it is like keeping professor past questions papers to use it in the upper grade.
Apparently you are the one who is fooling around, accusing without basis and complaining but did not provide any rational and logical points to justify your complains.


Here is my advice to you;
IN PRINCIPLE,
1. As a Muslims your concern is going to Paradise with eternal life [& virgins for some].
2. What matter most is how Allah will judge you on Judgment Day [J-Day].
3. On J-Day, Allah will judge based on his own words in the Quran [completed, perfected and final].
4. Allah will not judge you in accordance to a man-invented Ahadiths.
5. If you follow the Ahadiths [even though accepted as true] and it is not in compliance with Allahs' words in the Quran, you may not qualify to go to Paradise as you wish to be.
6. Therefore if you want to go to Paradise and avoid Hell, you must adhere to the words of Allah in the Quran and no where else.


7. You may rely on the Ahadiths for guidance but it cannot be final as it has potential errors as I had listed earlier.

Last edited by Continuum; 01-26-2016 at 11:22 PM..
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:30 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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5:3 .. ... This day are those [infidels] who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion [deenikum]; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM. ....
When Allah has stated in 5:3 the Quran is perfected and completed as representation of Islam, there should not be any additional elements from Muhammad [a normal human being and merely warner].
Therefore the Ahadiths cannot be a supplementary of divine elements from Allah.


What the Ahadiths can be are merely expositions, guidance and commentaries from various Muslims after Muhammad death. The Ahadiths cannot be imputed with any divine authority that can be relied upon to establish Islamic Laws.
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Old 01-27-2016, 12:03 PM
 
Location: quiet place
271 posts, read 214,531 times
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Continuum, you said above " I have given my explanation 53:5 [Al Najem] is confined to the revelations of Allah, i.e. and nothing else." !

What makes you confine this on the revelation or Quraan only ? Do you understand Arabic ? Did you get it from an aithentic Arabic Quraan Explanation book?

I guess you only using your critic skill i this. But you won't get a good result unless you base your judgement on accurate information.

I say again, you can not limit that verse in the Quraanic revelation, neither can you provide reference for your opinion ( a reference that is approved by Muslim majority).
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:11 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned View Post
Continuum, you said above " I have given my explanation 53:5 [Al Najem] is confined to the revelations of Allah, i.e. and nothing else." !

What makes you confine this on the revelation or Quraan only ? Do you understand Arabic ? Did you get it from an aithentic Arabic Quraan Explanation book?

I guess you only using your critic skill i this. But you won't get a good result unless you base your judgement on accurate information.

I say again, you can not limit that verse in the Quraanic revelation, neither can you provide reference for your opinion ( a reference that is approved by Muslim majority).
Don't run to the silly excuse of "not knowing Arabic" with me.
I believe I have understood the message of the Quran as intended to be conveyed by Allah from the various English translations.
Note I refer to 40++ English translations and my own very credible philosophical expertise.


Reference approved by Muslim majority?
Muslims by their nature are definitely bias because they have an very sensitive psychological stance to defend their very insecure feelings.
Note the "Innoculation Theory" [Woodrow LI can explain this to you], confirmation biasness and all sort of biasness and self-deception that a Muslim will resort to protect ihs religious psychological shell from cracking.


What is most correct is to based on objective interpretations of Allah's sole words and intention, i.e. because Allah said so in the Quran and from no where else.


Instead of complaining why not show me where I am wrong in my objective arguments.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:52 PM
 
120 posts, read 107,433 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
5:3 .. ... This day are those [infidels] who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion [deenikum]; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM. ....
When Allah has stated in 5:3 the Quran is perfected and completed as representation of Islam, there should not be any additional elements from Muhammad [a normal human being and merely warner].
Therefore the Ahadiths cannot be a supplementary of divine elements from Allah.


What the Ahadiths can be are merely expositions, guidance and commentaries from various Muslims after Muhammad death. The Ahadiths cannot be imputed with any divine authority that can be relied upon to establish Islamic Laws.


You are right...... unless The Quran states that the Hadith is a revelation from God which seem that you missed didn't you read that in the Quran being an expert! (Quran 53:3-4)
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Old 01-28-2016, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NABILBB View Post
You are right...... unless The Quran states that the Hadith is a revelation from God which seem that you missed didn't you read that in the Quran being an expert! (Quran 53:3-4)
I did not claim to be an 'expert' but I am sufficiently knowledgeable of the Quran [relative to other non-Muslims] to the extent that no Muslims will pull fast one on me with defenses and excuses like;
1. Have you read the Quran?
2. Do you know Arabic?
3. You are not a Muslim therefore not qualified to comment about Islam!


According to Allah the Quran is completed, perfected and final so there is no way there can be any Hadith [compiled by later commentators, etc.] as a revelation from God after Muhammad as supported by 53:3-4.


You are conflating the confusing the term 'Hadith' with revelation.
Hadiths are collection of sayings of Muhammad compiled by people up to 200 years after his death. Therefore a Hadith cannot be equated with a revelation as inspire via 53:3-4.


At best a Hadith can only be verified against the revelations in the Quran via 53:3-4 [etc.] to check whether it comply with the gist of the related verses.


Btw, Allah predicted in the Quran Muslims [SOME] will invent Hadiths that are not in accordance with Allah's sayings in the Quran and these Muslims will divide into sects. Apparently Allah was aware this is inevitable and will happen and truly it happened.
Therefore some or many of the Hadiths of the Sunni or Shia are not likely to be in accordance with Allah's words and thus false and sinful, "bidah" which is a form of corruption of Allah's word.
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Old 01-29-2016, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Don't run to the silly excuse of "not knowing Arabic" with me.
I believe I have understood the message of the Quran as intended to be conveyed by Allah from the various English translations.
Note I refer to 40++ English translations and my own very credible philosophical expertise.


Reference approved by Muslim majority?
Muslims by their nature are definitely bias because they have an very sensitive psychological stance to defend their very insecure feelings.
Note the "Innoculation Theory" [Woodrow LI can explain this to you], confirmation biasness and all sort of biasness and self-deception that a Muslim will resort to protect ihs religious psychological shell from cracking.


What is most correct is to based on objective interpretations of Allah's sole words and intention, i.e. because Allah said so in the Quran and from no where else.


Instead of complaining why not show me where I am wrong in my objective arguments.
"Inoculation Theory" applies to everyone that has a belief challenged for the first time.

When a person has an opinion or belief challenged for the first time, they are unable to address and answer for it. The more often a belief, opinion or world view is challenged the better equipped the individual becomes at addressing it.

Until we have a belief challenged, we are not aware we have the belief on a conscious level and accept it as a self evident truth. It is only by having our beliefs challenged that we develop the ability and reason to verify the validity of them or come to the conclusion it is fallacy.

Currently many non-Muslims have a subconscious belief that Islam is evil. Most non-Muslims have never had this opinion challenged. The anti-Islamic groups are actually raising questions and challenges to that view. "Innoculation Theory" indicates the more exposure the less erroneous views they will have about Islam.

In this regards I often view the anti-Muslims as being a very great gift to Islam. I believe that the current anti-Islamic era will give impetus for the spread of Islam and eventually bring most theists to Islam.

It is through the negativity of the media that rudimentary introduction to Islam is introduced. More people have heard of Islam today than ever before in history. Many, hopefully most will become curious and seek to understand why Muslims perform Islam. the result will be many new reverts returning home to Islam.

Islam can only spread through free will and the individual informed decision. The negative media is a strong force that is initiating a desire for non-Muslims to understand Islam. True understanding will result in acceptance.

Until the arrival of some people with anti-Islamic views, this forum was virtually dead with very few viewers and even less posters.. But since the arrival of more non-Muslims there has been an increased population of viewers and more importantly more people posting. I feel that the anti-Islamic posts have actually saved this forum from fading into oblivion because of lack of interest.
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Old 01-29-2016, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
In this regards I often view the anti-Muslims as being a very great gift to Islam. I believe that the current anti-Islamic era will give impetus for the spread of Islam and eventually bring most theists to Islam.

It is through the negativity of the media that rudimentary introduction to Islam is introduced. More people have heard of Islam today than ever before in history. Many, hopefully most will become curious and seek to understand why Muslims perform Islam. the result will be many new reverts returning home to Islam.
Naturally there will be anti-Muslims and anti-Islam as there are bigots in all ideologies and beliefs regardless of whether the ideas/teachings are good or evil.


Islam is both inherently good and evil at the same time in different perspectives.
The reality is the SOME evil prone Muslims have been inspired by the inherent evil elements of Islam to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and other Muslims. [there is no prevalent evils and violence on almost a daily basis as inspired by other religions]
The proof of such terrible evils and violence by SOME Muslims is glaringly evident and without doubts as in the following religious-inspired terroristic acts with fatalities [27,710];





Besides the above there are many other terrible evil acts of various degrees by SOME evil prone Muslims who are inspired by the evil laden elements in Islam [in-part].


In view of the above, it would be stupid and irresponsible of any concerned citizen of humanity not to research and critique to above evils.
Are you saying people should keep quiet and not research to trace to its root causes?


On the contrary, I am aware [note I read very widely] more non-Muslims are now aware of the evil elements [beside the assumed all is good] that is inherent in Islam. Even I have forced myself to read the distasteful Quran, and knowing more about Islam will definitely keep away from becoming a Muslim if I want to be religious.


I don't deny there will be people joining Islam upon hearing about it and for various reasons.
There are many weird people who will do the oddest and irrational thing. I am sure if we talk about Nazism at present in the News everyday, there will be an increase of people joining Nazi groups. This will happen but it is not significant.
What is significant is the truth will prevails and the good-of-humanity will overcome evil.

There are inherent evil elements in Islam [in part not whole] and it will need to default good of humanity [not good of Islam] to overcome such evils in the future.


Btw, the increased in the number of posters in this Islam Forum is not significant at all and has no impact on the greater society.
However it served my purpose which enable me to practice and express my thoughts and criticism of Islam after having done extensive research on the subject of Violence & Islam. You have been very helpful in providing addition information on Islam.

Last edited by Continuum; 01-29-2016 at 11:37 PM..
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Old 01-30-2016, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Naturally there will be anti-Muslims and anti-Islam as there are bigots in all ideologies and beliefs regardless of whether the ideas/teachings are good or evil.


Islam is both inherently good and evil at the same time in different perspectives.
The reality is the SOME evil prone Muslims have been inspired by the inherent evil elements of Islam to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims and other Muslims. [there is no prevalent evils and violence on almost a daily basis as inspired by other religions]
The proof of such terrible evils and violence by SOME Muslims is glaringly evident and without doubts as in the following religious-inspired terroristic acts with fatalities [27,710];





Besides the above there are many other terrible evil acts of various degrees by SOME evil prone Muslims who are inspired by the evil laden elements in Islam [in-part].


In view of the above, it would be stupid and irresponsible of any concerned citizen of humanity not to research and critique to above evils.
Are you saying people should keep quiet and not research to trace to its root causes?


On the contrary, I am aware [note I read very widely] more non-Muslims are now aware of the evil elements [beside the assumed all is good] that is inherent in Islam. Even I have forced myself to read the distasteful Quran, and knowing more about Islam will definitely keep away from becoming a Muslim if I want to be religious.


I don't deny there will be people joining Islam upon hearing about it and for various reasons.
There are many weird people who will do the oddest and irrational thing. I am sure if we talk about Nazism at present in the News everyday, there will be an increase of people joining Nazi groups. This will happen but it is not significant.
What is significant is the truth will prevails and the good-of-humanity will overcome evil.

There are inherent evil elements in Islam [in part not whole] and it will need to default good of humanity [not good of Islam] to overcome such evils in the future.


Btw, the increased in the number of posters in this Islam Forum is not significant at all and has no impact on the greater society.
However it served my purpose which enable me to practice and express my thoughts and criticism of Islam after having done extensive research on the subject of Violence & Islam. You have been very helpful in providing addition information on Islam.
Always glad to be of help. I actually appreciate youir presence here. I do like you methodology of presenting disagreement. It comes across as sincere and not as verbal terrorism.

I have no animosity towards disagreement but do have some frustration towards those who speak only to condemn.

You manner of presenting disagreement is refreshing and I feel worthy of replying to.
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:16 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slamiyyaat View Post
I cannot but agree. You are right.
Noted.

Quote:
However, I can use the QurAn to explode Masjids, which is logically not accepted to be the teaching of the QurAn. But I can justify it like ISIS are doing.
Likewise, some people use the Hadithes to do things against the QurAn.

The problem is not in the QurAn, or the true Hadithes. The problem is in the heart of the people who use it wrongly.
Your analytical skills and depth of understand is not high enough.
Here are some analogies with the hope you will understand my point;


Analogies:
1. Suppose one day, you decide to open all the doors in your house. The next morning your house was robbed of all valuables.
Immediately you will condemned and blame the evil heart of the robbers. I can agree with that BUT the more effective blame is on you for being ignorant of human nature.
The fact of human nature is via the Principle of the Bell Curve, there will always be a percentage [est. 20%] of evil [secular] and bad people.
Therefore when you open all the doors in your house, there is a "20%" chance of you being robbed.
If you had understood human nature, you should have locked all your doors to be more secure/certain [90%] you will not be robbed.


2. It is well researched that children when exposed to lots evils and violence in movies, computer games, other medias are likely to turn violent when they get older.
The researched results indicate not all children with exposures to violence will turn violent but only some children [say 20%] who are vulnerable.
It is because the authorities are aware of such a fact that they prevent children from watching movies with high level of violence with PG ratings. In other cases the medias with evil and violent laden elements are banned.
Note even if the movie which have a lot of violence but has a good moral ending, young children will still be prevented from watching it because the vulnerable ones cannot differentiate.


The point is if we expose evil and violent laden elements to all children, SOME children will be affected to be violent when they are older.




The above analogies are the same with the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.
By the principles of the Bell Curve, there will always be a natural percentage [say 20%] of humans who are evil prone, i.e. those will a high tendency to commit evil and violence. Therefore there will be 20% of Muslims who are prone to commit evil and violence.


Because these 20% of humans [including Muslims] are prone to evil and violence, they should not be exposed to evil laden elements especially in religious texts which are emotionally charged.


This is why religions like Buddhism, Jainism and the like which are wiser and understand human nature do not include any evil laden elements in their holy texts. Thus evil prone Buddhists will not have the opportunity to use the Buddhist sutras to justify their violence. There are Buddhist who commit violence but they did not do it in the name of their religion but only due to their inherent evil nature.


Even Christianity understood human nature by putting up an overriding pacifist maxim [love your enemies] to ensure Christians has no opportunities to commit violence based on verses in the NT.


However in Islam there is a problem where the Quran contains a lot of verses containing evil laden elements that can be used by Muslims who are prone to commit violence and evils.
This is proven by the terrible evils and violence around the world that are committed by SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims who are inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran.


The problem with the Quran and Islam is the existence of those evil laden elements which has vague and unspecific conditions.
When the jihadists interpret those verses and commit violence, no one on Earth can insist they are wrong because only Allah can judge what he intended in the Quran.


In this case, we cannot SOLELY blame the Muslims who has evil heart and commit evils and violence. The Quran and Islam is partly [not wholly] to be blamed for including evil and violent laden elements in the Quran.
If the Quran do not include those evil laden elements, then no Muslims will be able to justify their violence in the name of Islam.
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