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Old 02-04-2016, 10:03 AM
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

Your analytical skills and depth of understand is not high enough.
Here are some analogies with the hope you will understand my point;

1. Suppose one day, you decide to open all the doors in your house. The next morning your house was robbed of all valuables.
Immediately you will condemned and blame the evil heart of the robbers. I can agree with that BUT the more effective blame is on you for being ignorant of human nature.
The fact of human nature is via the Principle of the Bell Curve, there will always be a percentage [est. 20%] of evil [secular] and bad people.
Therefore when you open all the doors in your house, there is a "20%" chance of you being robbed.
If you had understood human nature, you should have locked all your doors to be more secure/certain [90%] you will not be robbed.

2. It is well researched that children when exposed to lots evils and violence in movies, computer games, other medias are likely to turn violent when they get older.
The researched results indicate not all children with exposures to violence will turn violent but only some children [say 20%] who are vulnerable.
It is because the authorities are aware of such a fact that they prevent children from watching movies with high level of violence with PG ratings. In other cases the medias with evil and violent laden elements are banned.
Note even if the movie which have a lot of violence but has a good moral ending, young children will still be prevented from watching it because the vulnerable ones cannot differentiate.

The point is if we expose evil and violent laden elements to all children, SOME children will be affected to be violent when they are older.

The above analogies are the same with the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.
By the principles of the Bell Curve, there will always be a natural percentage [say 20%] of humans who are evil prone, i.e. those will a high tendency to commit evil and violence. Therefore there will be 20% of Muslims who are prone to commit evil and violence.

Because these 20% of humans [including Muslims] are prone to evil and violence, they should not be exposed to evil laden elements especially in religious texts which are emotionally charged.

This is why religions like Buddhism, Jainism and the like which are wiser and understand human nature do not include any evil laden elements in their holy texts. Thus evil prone Buddhists will not have the opportunity to use the Buddhist sutras to justify their violence. There are Buddhist who commit violence but they did not do it in the name of their religion but only due to their inherent evil nature.

Even Christianity understood human nature by putting up an overriding pacifist maxim [love your enemies] to ensure Christians has no opportunities to commit violence based on verses in the NT.

However in Islam there is a problem where the Quran contains a lot of verses containing evil laden elements that can be used by Muslims who are prone to commit violence and evils.
This is proven by the terrible evils and violence around the world that are committed by SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims who are inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran.

The problem with the Quran and Islam is the existence of those evil laden elements which has vague and unspecific conditions.
When the jihadists interpret those verses and commit violence, no one on Earth can insist they are wrong because only Allah can judge what he intended in the Quran.

In this case, we cannot SOLELY blame the Muslims who has evil heart and commit evils and violence. The Quran and Islam is partly [not wholly] to be blamed for including evil and violent laden elements in the Quran.
If the Quran do not include those evil laden elements, then no Muslims will be able to justify their violence in the name of Islam.

This is an area in which we will probably never resolve our differences.

However in Islam there is a problem where the Quran contains a lot of verses containing evil laden elements that can be used by Muslims who are prone to commit violence and evils.
This is proven by the terrible evils and violence around the world that are committed by SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims who are inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran.

I contend that the Qur'an does not contain any evil laden elements. It is only when they are interpreted by some non-Muslims that opinion evolves.

This goes back to the Crusades and has continued in an attempt by some people to demonize Islam and dehumanize Muslims. Some ot the widespread myths (Based upon misunderstandings) are:

1. The Satanic Verses

2. The Verse of the Sword

3. The non-Islamic belief that the Qur'an teaches how to perform Islam

4. The non-Islamic belief that Muslims can not question the meanings of the Qur'an.

Working backwards.

4. The non-Islamic belief that Muslims can not question the meanings of the Qur'an.

What is not questioned is the belief that the Qur'an is the actual words of Allaah(swt). For that reason only the Qur'an in the original Qur'anic Arabic is considered to be the Qur'an. No translations are considered to be the Qur'an, not even translations into other Arabic dialects.

Now as we are each limited by our own abilities we are not only allowed to Question the meanings, we are encouraged to do so. It is also known that there are ayyats and possibly entire Surah that we do not understand. But we do believe that we all will easily understand that which is applicable to us as individuals.

But it is essential to understand that the Sahaabah were eloquent people who spoke proper Arabic, and the Qur’an was revealed in a plain Arabic tongue, so it was not too difficult for any of the Sahaabah to grasp the meanings of many of its verses. In many cases, the meanings of many verses were grasped instinctively (because they were clear) and there was no need for any interpretation or commentary. Hence Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) said: There are four layers of tafseer (interpretation or commentary): that which the Arabs know from their language; interpretation for which no one has any excuse for not knowing; interpretation that is known to the scholars only; and interpretation which no one knows except Allah, may He be exalted – i.e., the ambiguous verses.
As we will come across things in the Qur'an we do not understand it behooves us to question. The highest form of questioning comes from studying to become a scholar, which we all are encouraged to do, to the best of our ability.

God has honored scholars a number of times in the holy Quran. For instance,
“Verily, those who truly fear God out of all His worshipers are the scholars” (35:28) and
“But if they had referred the matter back to the Messenger or to those of authority among them, then the ones who can deduce from it would have known about it. And if not for the favor of God upon you and His mercy, you would have followed Satan, except for a few.” (4:83)

Thus, true Islamic scholarship can save Muslims from falling prey to Satan. It can also sort out what is religion and what is tradition. So many people mix the two.
- See more at: Blind Following « Categories « Understand Islam

Many follow their scriptures as ultimate truth, often with their 'learned' interpreting the scripture for them. In the end, the adoption of practices and rituals become a function simply of what household one is born in and what has been taught by their forefathers or preached by their community religious leaders.
The Quran dispenses with blind following. It admonishes humans for not using their mind, their intellect and reason. Such faculties are not granted without purpose. They have inherent intent which includes the use of reason to arrive at some sort of certainty of truth, even though, it may run against the grain of what one has been taught by their forefathers since childhood.
005:104"And when it is said to them: "Come to what has been revealed by God and to the Messenger": They say: "Sufficient for us are the ways we found our fathers following." What! even though their fathers were void of knowledge and guidance?"
The Quran uses the very descriptive Arabic term 'Aql' to describe reason, intellect and understanding.
Source: Edward Lanes Lexicon [1]
God powerfully and emphatically admonishes those that do not use their intellect, reason or 'aql'
008:022"Indeed, the vilest of living animals, in God's sight, are the deaf, the dumb and those that do not use their intellect (Aql - Arabic: yAQLun)"
Throughout the Quran, the narratives engage with its audience appealing to make use of their intellect and reason (Arabic: Aql)
007:169 (Part)"... Will you not use your intellect?" (Arabic: afala tAQLun?)
We read throughout the Quran the decimation of complete communities by the wrath of God as they didn't use their 'aql' but instead, blindly followed their own lusts and transgressed beyond bounds.
This may have been partially due to societal pressure or simply by following the ignorant practices and crimes of their forefathers or peers. Whatever the cause and inclination, it seems absolutely clear from the Quran's perspective that each individual soul has been granted the fundamental capacity to know what is right and what is wrong for it. Thereby, it attracts individual responsibility.
Blind Following
3. The non-Islamic belief that the Qur'an teaches how to perform Islam

The Quran gives us reason to perform Islam. It is the Sunnah that tells us how.

Because the Qur'an is unique even among religious scripture, the proper analogy of the Sunnah should become more profound. Rather than appearing like extra-Biblical literature written after the time of Jesus (p), the Sunnah is more like actual texts in the Bible, which endeavour to describe and explain the teachings of Jesus.

That's right, I said that the Qur'an is unique, and the Sunnah (or Hadith) is kind of like the Bible--specifically like the Gospels of the New Testament.

Why? Because the Sunnah, the Hadith, these are the teachings of Muhammad (saws)--the things he said, the things he did, and what was done in his presence while he approved. And are you thinking, but the Qur'an is the teachings of Muhammad (saws)? Remember what I said before, that the Qur'an is unique in its nature in that it is the Speech of Allaah, His words exactly, perfect and precise. Not the words of Muhammad (saws). But Muhammad (saws) did not utter only the Qur'an. He did not hide in his house and emerge only to recite the revelation which Allah had bestowed on him--he taught his Companions by interacting with them, by sitting with them and talking to them, and traveling with them. His actions were a source of teaching them as well as his words. And that is the Sunnah! After his death (saws), his companions continued to transmit his teachings, his own words, in addition to the Qur'an, although separate from the Qur'an.
Ibnat al-Hidayah: Daughter of Guidance: What is the Purpose of the Sunnah?

2. The Verse of the Sword

Statements by scholars dating back to the 3rd century Hirji have claimed that the following verse, which has become known as “the verse of the sword,” has abrogated, i.e. annulled, many Qur’anic verses:

When the Inviolable Months have passed away, kill the polytheists wherever you find them. Seize them, besiege them, and wait for them at every place of observation. If they repent, observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms then let them go their way. Allah is forgiving, merciful. (9.5)

The significance of these reports is the nature of the alleged abrogated verses. The latter include numerous verses that call on the Muslims to be tolerant, forgiving, and patient, and to display such positive attributes toward non-Muslims that allowed Muslims to live peacefully with various religious groups for 1,400 years. Although the alleged abrogating function of verse 9.5 has been dismissed by most scholars, it has become very popular among Muslim terrorist groups and individuals who use it to justify their atrocities.
Myths About "The Verse of the Sword" | Qur

1. The Satanic Verses

Hearing this, the polytheists were absolutely thrilled and said: (Muhammad), until today, had never spoken nicely of our Gods. At that moment the Noble Prophet (S) went into prostration and they too prostrated. All the polytheists of the Quraish were ecstatic and then went their ways, but shortly later Jibra’il descended and informed him (S): I had not brought for you those two sentences! These were of the inspirations of the Satan!

The following verse was then revealed which cautioned the Noble Prophet (S) and the believers3:

وَ مَا أَرْسَلْــنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رَسُولٍ وَ لاَ نَبِيٍّ إِلاَّ إِذَا تَمَنَّى أَلْقَى الشَّيْطَانُ فِي أُمْنِيَّتِهِ فَيَنْــسَخُ اللٌّهُ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ ثُمَّ يُحْكِمُ اللٌّهُ آيَاتِهِ وَ اللٌّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ

“And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, but when he desired, the Shaytan made a suggestion respecting his desire; but Allah (s.w.t.) annuls that which the Shaytan casts, then does Allah (s.w.t.) establish His communications, and Allah (s.w.t.) s Knowing, Wise.”4

If this tradition were to be accepted, it would put a question mark over the infallibility of the prophets, even with respect to receiving the revelation, and would serve to erode away the confidence in them.

At this juncture, before we endeavour to study and critically examine the traditions, we should first separate the text of verse 52 of Suratul Hajj from the traditions fabricated in connection with it and see what the verse actually has to say:

Certainly, the text of this verse, disregarding the false annotations, not only does not taint the infallibility of the prophets but on the contrary, is one of the proofs of their infallibility. This is because, it says: Whenever they possessed a positive plan and desire (every kind of desire is called امنية, but here امنية refers to a positive and constructive scheme for the advancement of their objectives; if it was not constructive, the Satan would never seek to put whisperings into it) the Satan would attack it, but before he could exert an influence upon their will or acts, Allah (s.w.t.) would nullify the Satanic inspirations and fortify His verses.

(It should be noted that the “ف” in فَيَنسَخُ اللهُ denotes a sequence without any intervening time internal, i.e. immediately and without any time interval, Allah (s.w.t.) would annul and eliminate the inspirations and the whisperings of the Satan.)
43. What is the Myth of Gharaniq or
Those 4 myths combined with faulty translations are the cause of why some non-Muslms perceive the Qur'an as having "Evil Laden" verses.
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Old 02-05-2016, 05:25 AM
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This is an area in which we will probably never resolve our differences.

However in Islam there is a problem where the Quran contains a lot of verses containing evil laden elements that can be used by Muslims who are prone to commit violence and evils.
This is proven by the terrible evils and violence around the world that are committed by SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims who are inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran.

I contend that the Qur'an does not contain any evil laden elements. It is only when they are interpreted by some non-Muslims that opinion evolves.
You missed my point totally.

My critique of Islam started with something significant like this;

Besides the above there are many other notable evils and violence that are committed by evil prone Muslims.
As a concerned citizen of humanity one has to ask what is the ultimate root causes of the above incidents with fatalities.

The fact that such terrible evils and violence are not prevalent amongst other religions at present give us a clue that there must be some inherent elements that is the root cause of the above evils and violence with Islam itself.

From my very thorough investigations I arrived at the following two main ultimate root causes, i.e.

1. 20% of all humans [including Muslims] are evil prone
2. The Quran contain a critical amount of evil laden verses.

Root cause 1 above is natural, therefore there is nothing humanity can do about except to do its best to mitigate the potential evils and violence from these people.

The evil laden verses in the Quran catalyze and inspire the evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence in the name of their religion, God and founder. This is a reality one cannot deny.
This has nothing to do with non-Muslim interpreting the verses of the Quran.
It is these 20% of Muslims who comply what is stipulated by Allah in the Quran.

As a Muslim, you will naturally deny those terrible evils and violence has anything to do with Islam. This is only natural - inoculation theory, confirmation bias, other defenses, etc.
This is why you stated and insist all the time 'the Qur'an does not contain any evil laden elements.'
Note such denial is common not only with one's religion, but exists within family, race, Nations and anything with one's vested interests.

What are evil laden elements can be justified philosophical via analysis of language, concepts, psychology and other relevant principles.

I define 'evil' as any act and thought that has a net-negative potential to the well being of the individual, others and humanity.
Terms like 'killing,' rapes, war, genocide, lying, stealing, oppression, cheating, adultery, 'us versus them' [negative], racism, slavery, casting terror, and the likes are generally 'evil' within a range of degrees.
The only exception to the above is when there are acceptable justifications to the above.
'War' is generally immoral and evil but at present we have to tolerate with such an evil till we can get rid of it.

'Laden' I think you should have no problem with this term, i.e, loaded with, imputed into, embedded.

Thus an evil laden verse or element is one that is loaded with 'evil' elements.
It is like a loaded gun which has an inherent potential to kill.
The critical prevention is to avoid giving a loaded gun to potentially evil prone people.

The Quran is like a loaded gun when it is loaded with tons of evil elements.
Note I have read the Quran extensively and I am aware of them.
Naturally you will disagree [innoculation theory] and the only way to settle this dispute is to go through each of the 6,236 verses with you and review whether there are 'evil' elements in the verse.
For example the Quran sanctioned the 'casting of terror' on non-Muslims.
The problem the condition surrounding this 'casting of terror' is vague.

This vagueness and ambiguity enable to zealous Muslims who are evil prone to cast terror on non-Muslims with the intent they are complying with the Quran [as duty re the covenant] and to please God to expedite their passage to Paradise with eternal life and other superlative sensual delights as promised by Allah.

In general, the Quran has a pervasive attitude of a negative 'us versus them' i.e. us=good, them=evil and a threat of Islam.

The critical factor to all this is there is no central authority in Islam to decide who is right or who is wrong. Only Allah can judge of Judgment Day in accordance to his Quran.

This is the weakness that facilitate the evil prone Muslims to adopt those evil laden verses literally because they sincerely believe those are Allah's intentions in accordance to his words in the Quran.

The other critical factor is all Muslims are compelled by the subliminal primal fear [an emotion] [I have discuss this in another thread] to obey Allah's words to ensure they avoid Hell and go to Paradise.

You should understand this serious compulsion when people are driven by primal emotions they will be blinded and will do the worst things possible, as in cases of sexual lust, kleptomania, gluttony, crime of passions, etc. However the compulsion for theistic religion as driven by primal fear is one of the most strongest of all beside the basic instinct to survival.

Hope you get the point of how dangerous it is when evil-laden elements [including ambiguous ones] are embedded such a basic instinct driven by primal fears.
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