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Old 01-23-2016, 02:49 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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According to the Quran, Muhammad is merely a warner.
[Warner mentioned 57 times in the Quran].
Re 50:45 Muhammad is to warn Muslims by the Quran and nothing more.
As in 43:24 the guidance mentioned as brought by the warner has to be within the scope of the Quran, i.e. the truth.
Re 2:119 the truth is the scripture, i.e. the Quran and nothing else.
67:26 Say: The knowledge is with Allah only, and I am but a plain warner; [knowledge of Allah is via the Quran only, not Ahadiths].



50:45 We are best aware of what they [infidels] say, and thou (O Muhammad) art in no wise a compeller over them [infidels]. But warn by the Qur’an him [Muslim] who feareth My threat.

43:24 (And the warner) said: What! Even though I bring you better guidance than that ye found your fathers following? They answered: Lo! in what ye bring we are disbelievers.

2:213 Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that it might judge between mankind concerning that wherein they differed. And only those unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed concerning it, after clear proofs had come unto them, through hatred one of another. And Allah by His Will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

2:119 Lo! We have sent thee (O Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire.
My point:
If Muhammad's responsibility is merely a warner within the scope of the Quran, then, whatever is in the Ahadiths and outside the scope of the Quran cannot have any divine authority of Allah.


For example, what is not provided in the Quran, i.e. to cover the Muslimah's hair with the hijab as mentioned in the Hadiths cannot be an imperative [compulsory] rule of Allah. It is the same for the punishment of stoning to death for adultery and any other supposedly "rulings" in the Ahadiths that are not in compliance with the Quran.

There are many verses which exhort Muslims to obey Muhammad. The above point re 'within the scope of the Quran' also applied to what is to be obeyed in relation to Muhammad has also to be within the scope of the Quran and not to any statement made by Muhammad in the activities of his daily life.

Agree/Disagree?








Other relevant verses [sample] related to Muhammad as warner.
25:56 And We have sent thee (O Muhammad) only as a bearer of good tidings and a warner.

11:12 ..... Thou art but a warner, and Allah is in charge of all things. .......

17:105 With truth have We sent it down, and with truth hath it descended. And We have sent thee as naught else save a bearer of good tidings and a warner.

43:24 (And the warner) said: What! Even though I bring you better guidance than that ye found your fathers following? They answered: Lo! in what ye bring we are disbelievers.

46:9 Say: I am no new thing among the messengers (of Allah), nor know I what will be done with me or with you. I do but follow that which is inspired in me, and I am but a plain warner.

67:26 Say: The knowledge is with Allah only, and I am but a plain warner;
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Old 01-23-2016, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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As the Ahadiths were not written by Muhammad(saws) and are eye witness accounts of what he saw and did, they are the means by which we learn how Muhammad(saws) interpreted the Qur'an.

The Qur'an informs us that Muhammad(saws) is not the Auithor of any commands, and what He says comes from Allaah(swt) not from Muhammad(saws). Muhammad(saws) does not spek for HImself. The Qur'an informs us that any commands given by Muhammad(saws) are from Allaah(swt).
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Old 01-23-2016, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As the Ahadiths were not written by Muhammad(saws) and are eye witness accounts of what he saw and did, they are the means by which we learn how Muhammad(saws) interpreted the Qur'an.
According to the Quran Muhammad was merely a warner, conveyor and metaphorically a 'parrot,' 'loudspeaker,' a puppet of a ventriloguist [Allah] which Allah used to deliver his message of the Quran via Gabriel. Note the following potential errors;


Potential Error 1:
Since Muhammad was merely an ordinary Joe, whatever Muhammad interpreted of the message of the Quran he received and act cannot be necessary 100% correct. Note the Satanic verses for example.


Potential Error 2:
The Ahadiths are eye witness of various people who as any ordinary human are vulnerable to make errors of perception and interpretations.


Potential Error 3:
The eye witness accounts are not those of the original observers and hearers of the sayings and acts of Muhammad but handed down >100 years after the death of Muhammad. Therefore it is inevitable there are errors in this process. Note "Chinese Whispers" as the message is distorted from one person to the next.


Potential Error 4:
Apparently hundreds of thousands of individual hadiths were collected and only a few thousands were authenticated. Apparently such authentication was done by one individual person [Bukhari] with his own collection amongst other collectors of the Ahadiths. Again such process is vulnerable to error due to human fallibilities and biasness.


With 4 potential errors as above, the Ahadiths cannot be reliable on their own standing. Therefore a Muslim cannot blindly accept what is codified in the Ahadiths as originating from Allah just because many claim they were related to Muhammad.


The only way to verify the credibility of any Hadith is to ensure it comply with the words of Allah in the Quran.

Quote:
The Qur'an informs us that Muhammad(saws) is not the Auithor of any commands, and what He says comes from Allaah(swt) not from Muhammad(saws). Muhammad(saws) does not speak for HImself.
The Qur'an informs us that any commands given by Muhammad(saws) are from Allaah(swt).
What you stated as bolded above is not correct.
The Quran specifically mentioned Muhammad is a warner and has no divine authority.
Therefore it is wrong to claim ANY COMMANDS given by Muhammad [from 610AD] are certainly [I take it this is what you imply] from Allah.


What is correct is Allah will issue his commands via Gabriel to Muhammad the 'parrot' to recite to his people and scribe.
I take it that Allah only deliver his messages [including commands] via Gabriel to Muhammad [Allah's parrot -metaphorically] 114 time during the 23 years when Gabriel first appeared to Muhammad. That is approximately 5 times a year.


Give and take, perhaps Allah did spoke via Gabriel to Muhammad more than 5 times a year but definitely not every day or every hour.
Since Muhammad had followers who obeyed him like his slaves, surely he must have given a lot of commands [>1000s of orders, instructions, requests] on a daily basis to his followers during the 23 years.
Such commands, e.g. ordering his followers to do this or that cannot said to be from Allah but are Muhammad personal commands.


From my argument above your assertion in bold as follows,
"The Qur'an informs us that any commands given by Muhammad(saws) are from Allaah(swt)."
is WRONG.
Can you prove you are right?
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Old 01-24-2016, 02:43 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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19:97. And We make (this Scripture) easy in thy tongue, (O Muhammad) only that thou mayst bear good tidings therewith unto those [Muslims] who ward off (evil), and warn therewith the froward [willing contrary] folk [infidels].
From the above 19:97 the verse emphasized Muhammad main responsibilities is ONLY to bear good tidings and WARN the infidels in accordance to the scripture [the Quran] which is supposed easy to read.


Therefore it is not expected that Muhammad was to come up with his own sayings that are outside the scope of the Quran.


Therefore, whatever sayings of Muhammad in the Ahadiths must therefore comply with the verses in the Quran.
Statements claimed to be made by Muhammad which do not comply with the Quran cannot carry any divine authority of Allah.
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Old 01-24-2016, 09:35 AM
 
Location: quiet place
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Both Quran and Hadith if the later (is accredited to be right ) have the same degree of divinity and effective in legislative laws ( sharia) .
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Old 01-24-2016, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned View Post
Both Quran and Hadith if the later (is accredited to be right ) have the same degree of divinity and effective in legislative laws ( sharia) .
The above is blasphemy.


1. The Quran is from Allah via Gabriel to Muhammad.
Therefore the Quran carry the divine authority of Allah.

2. Whatever statements that do not comply with the Quran cannot be equated as the words of Allah.
There are statements in the Ahadiths that do not comply with the Quran.
These non-Quranic-based statements in the Ahadiths [accredited-right] cannot be in line with the ordinations of Allah.

3. Therefore to insist ALL accredited right Ahadiths [Sharia] carry the same divinity as the Quran is blasphemy and corruption of Islam as ordained by Allah.

4. Such blasphemy and corruption are serious sins like how Allah in the Quran accused the Jews and Christians changed and added to the original holy texts.

5. Any Fatwa by any clergy or statement made by any one [Muslim or non-Muslim] can be in line with Allah's Laws if they comply with the verses in the Quran.
For example any one can make a statement to avoid pork because it is clearly stated as forbidden in the Quran.




Examples of Hadiths non-compliance with the Quran
1. The requirement of the hijab to cover the hair [head] of Muslimah of the Hadiths [Sharia] is a non-compliant with the Quran. The Quran did not dictate a Muslimah must cover her hair/head.


2. The stoning to death for adultery in the Hadiths [Sharia] is non-compliant with the Quran. The Quran [words of Allah] did not state such a serious punishment.


3. Show me proofs the above Hadiths ruling complied with the words of Allah.


4. Any other hadiths that do not comply with gist/essence of the Quran [words of Allah] as dictated to Muhammad via Gabriel cannot carry any divine authority.
The decision, judgment and accreditation by the Hadiths compiler[s] and consensus by others do not give divine authority to ALL Hadiths.


Only Hadiths that can be verified and complied with the essence of the verses in the Quran [words of Allah] can be accepted as having divine authority.
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Old 01-24-2016, 09:04 PM
 
Location: quiet place
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the Islam wholly is a blasphemy to you continuum. what prophet Mohammad said is religious and divine

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden and saying: We do not know. What we found in Allah's Book we have followed.
Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani)
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4605
In-book reference : Book 42, Hadith 10
English translation : Book 41, Hadith 4588

if you do not like Mohammad, well that is not my problem but you claim that you follow what came in Quran only. let us see this one.

Surat: Al-Najem( the star)
{In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful}
By the star when it descends(1) Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred(2)Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination(3)It is not but a revelation revealed(4)Taught to him by one intense in strength(5)

ِAlso, another evidence from Quran

Surat AL-HASHR (THE EXILE)

{And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns - it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveler - so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you. And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty (7) }

now I guess the debate has finished about this at least to me and to every sane man.

May Allah guide all of us the best way that blease Him.
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Old 01-25-2016, 02:10 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned View Post
the Islam wholly is a blasphemy to you continuum. what prophet Mohammad said is religious and divine

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden and saying: We do not know. What we found in Allah's Book we have followed.
Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani)
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4605
In-book reference : Book 42, Hadith 10
English translation : Book 41, Hadith 4588
It is not logical and rational to use the AHadiths to defend the Ahadiths.
This is circular and especially we are doubting the credibility of the Ahadiths with its potential errors.

Quote:
if you do not like Mohammad, well that is not my problem but you claim that you follow what came in Quran only. let us see this one.

Surat: Al-Najem( the star)
{In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful}
By the star when it descends(1) Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred(2)Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination(3)It is not but a revelation revealed(4)Taught to him by one intense in strength(5)
As usual we must refer to the context of the chapter and the related verses.
This 53:5 refer to what Muhammad spoke about the Quran, i.e. the words of Allah as he "heard" from Gabriel.
53:6-13 refer to Muhammad's encounter with Gabriel and what Muhammad spoke is not from his own inclinations are far as the revealed revelation from Allah via Gabriel is concern.


Now what Allah delivered to Muhammad via Gabriel is easy to read, completed and final as in the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
There should not be anything other than from the perfected and completed Quran.
If there are anything extra [unverifiable Hadiths against the Quran] then it would imply the Quran is not complete and perfect. This meant Allah was wrong in claiming the Quran is perfected and completed!


If one relied on the Ahadiths, then, Muhammad spoke from his own inclinations [not Allah words via Gabriel] when he insisted Muslimah must cover their hairs with the hijab and other sayings that are not mentioned in the Quran.

The other views is all the hadiths that were not in accordance with the words of Allah as in the Quran were invented by zealous Muslims and claimed as spoken by Muhammad. This is most likely as in accordance to the circumstances, time, methods, people, etc. the Ahadiths were compiled.


Quote:
ِAlso, another evidence from Quran

Surat AL-HASHR (THE EXILE)

{And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns - it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveler - so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you. And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty (7) }
This 59:7 refer to the distribution of the spoils of war [59:6] in accordance to the ruling [8:41] in Quran, this is not extended to what Muhammad commands and says in general over his 23 years.


Muhammad has no divine authority at all. Whatever is Islamic from Muhammad must comply with what is in the Quran and not in accordance to his whims and inclinations.



Quote:
now I guess the debate has finished about this at least to me and to every sane man.

May Allah guide all of us the best way that blease Him.
The debate is not over as you have not proven the truths, i.e.


Examples of Hadiths non-compliance with the Quran
1. The requirement of the hijab to cover the hair [head] of Muslimah of the Hadiths [Sharia] is a non-compliant with the Quran. The Quran did not dictate a Muslimah must cover her hair/head.


2. The stoning to death for adultery in the Hadiths [Sharia] is non-compliant with the Quran. The Quran [words of Allah] did not state such a serious punishment.


3. Show me proofs the above Hadiths ruling complied with the words of Allah.


4. The above are merely two examples, there are hundreds of the sayings of Muhammad and compiled as authentic in the Ahadiths that has not equivalent and compliance in principles with the words of Allah in the Quran.


It is a fact that when anyone, including Muhammad said something that Allah did not say [as in the Quran] and believe or insist it to be so, that is blasphemy. This is basic logic.


Muhammad is merely a warner, reminder, conveyor of the message, bringing good tidings as the Quran mentioned so many times with very strong emphasis in so many perspective and circumstances.

Last edited by Continuum; 01-25-2016 at 02:25 AM..
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Old 01-25-2016, 02:48 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
if you do not like Mohammad, well that is not my problem but you claim that you follow what came in Quran only.
Btw, I am not with the Quran-Only Muslims [the submitters, or Quranists] who reject the Ahadiths totally.


My principle is what is to be valid as Islamic must comply with the principles, doctrine and whatever is stated by Allah.
Now, whatever that is stated by Allah can only be in the Quran, i.e. completed, perfected and final as pronounced by Allah himself in the Quran [via Gabriel to Muhammad].
Thus if a ruling is not from the Quran it cannot be genuinely Islamic.
This is the logical, rational and right principle to be followed.


Therefore as far as a hadiths is claimed to be Islamic, it must comply with the Quran, i.e. the words of Allah.


Even me as a non-Muslims can give an Islamic warning to a group of Muslims, i.e. warn them not to eat pork because that is what Allah stated in the Quran. It is objective and nothing wrong with that.
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Old 01-26-2016, 01:02 AM
 
Location: quiet place
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Continuum, I don't know why you are bothering yourself posting about Islam? if you accept Islam then do what Muslims do. if Muslim told you that they believe in Hadith then you must believe the same way. that is it.
there is no contradiction between the logic on one hand and the Qur'an & ( True Hadith). Imam ibn Taymeah( Muslim Scholar) had authored a book under this topic. Also, the mere logic or Instinct Approve this. why because it is not acceptable from God to legislate/decree smth that can not be applied by his creations/ human beings.

So again, you cannot reject true hadiths based on your own methodology or philosophy or even your scientific approach if you are dealing with creeds. Creeds are adopted like this by faith if it was accepted by the instinct or Sense.

Again, you tried when you commented on Sruat Al-Najm to avoid the implication of the verse. what is so funny is that you even do not bother yourself looking for the explanation of that verse ? you just do what Media does (blakout )?

I find this way of fooling oneself is not encouraging for anyone to comment on your post.


note: Gathering arguments from here and there and posting them does not mean you confute the argument , it is like keeping professor past questions papers to use it in the upper grade.
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