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Old 01-27-2016, 10:13 PM
 
Location: quiet place
271 posts, read 214,198 times
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الَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ الرَّسُولَ النَّبِيَّ الأُمِّيَّ الَّذِي يَجِدُونَهُ مَكْتُوبًا عِندَهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالإِنْجِيلِ يَأْمُرُهُم بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَنْهَاهُمْ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْخَبَآئِثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَالأَغْلاَلَ الَّتِي كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ فَالَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ بِهِ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَاتَّبَعُواْ النُّورَ الَّذِيَ أُنزِلَ مَعَهُ أُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ

http://www.quranflash.com/assets/verses/7_157.png

the Translation of the verse


" Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e.Muhammad SAW) whom they find written with them in the Taurât (Torah) (Deut, xviii, 15) and the Injeel (Gospel) (John xiv, 16) , - he commands them for Al-Ma'rűf (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism and all that Islâm has ordained); and forbids them from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds, and all that Islâm has forbidden); he allows them as lawful At-Taiyibât [(i.e. all good and lawful) as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.], and prohibits them as unlawful Al-Khabâ'ith (i.e. all evil and unlawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.), he releases them from their heavy burdens (of Allâh's Covenant), and from the fetters (bindings) that were upon them. So those who believe in him (Muhammad SAW), honour him, help him, and follow the light (the Qur'ân) which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful ."

verse # (157) Chapter (7)
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Old 01-27-2016, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
The above 7:157 must be read in the context of the following verses [words of Allah]
50:45 We are best aware of what they [infidels] say, and thou (O Muhammad) art in no wise a compeller over them [infidels]. But warn by the Qur’an him [Muslim] who feareth My threat.

43:24 (And the warner) said: What! Even though I bring you better guidance than that ye found your fathers following? They answered: Lo! in what ye bring we are disbelievers.

2:213 Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that it might judge between mankind concerning that wherein they differed. And only those unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed concerning it, after clear proofs had come unto them, through hatred one of another. And Allah by His Will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

2:119 Lo! We have sent thee (O Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire.


The above stipulated that 'Muhammad is merely a warner' which should be the overriding principle, otherwise Allah is contradicting himself.
I suggest you read the above verses carefully and deeply.
This is agreed and qualified by the commentator from your reference, i.e.


(i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds, and ALL that Islâm has forbidden);


The above "all that Islam has forbidden" implied what is forbidden* in the Quran and no where else and not from the inclinations of Muhammad. *This also apply to what is permitted in the Quran and other conditions therein.


What is Islam is solely what is in the Quran and no where else. Note [mine];

5:3 This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM.


Whatever that is stated by Muhammad and claimed as Islamic must comply with the Quran and nothing else.
Therefore the rule e.g. 'hijab to cover the Muslimah's hair' cannot be an Islamic Law because it is not stated as forbidden in the Quran. This principle applies to all other similar rulings that are not in the Quran.
The Ahadiths are merely expositions and explanatory notes which are vulnerable and prone to errors as I had pointed out in another post.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/42750346-post3.html


The conventional claim that Islam is Quran + Hadiths [authentic] is wrong in principle as Allah NEVER sanction the compilation of the Ahadiths by man. According to Allah, it is great sin to add words to what Allah has perfected and completed [5:3].
Note there are Muslims [the Quranists, Submitters] who reject the Ahadiths totally as representative of Islam.


Many Muslims recognized Islam is Quran + Hadiths + Sira, where the Sira is disputed by other Muslims.


The point is there is no central authority within Islam to decide who is right or who is wrong.
In this case, the most true representation of Islam in essence is the Quran, i.e. Allah's own words as in 5:3.
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Old 01-28-2016, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above 7:157 must be read in the context of the following verses [words of Allah]
50:45 We are best aware of what they [infidels] say, and thou (O Muhammad) art in no wise a compeller over them [infidels]. But warn by the Qur’an him [Muslim] who feareth My threat.

43:24 (And the warner) said: What! Even though I bring you better guidance than that ye found your fathers following? They answered: Lo! in what ye bring we are disbelievers.

2:213 Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that it might judge between mankind concerning that wherein they differed. And only those unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed concerning it, after clear proofs had come unto them, through hatred one of another. And Allah by His Will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

2:119 Lo! We have sent thee (O Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire.


The above stipulated that 'Muhammad is merely a warner' which should be the overriding principle, otherwise Allah is contradicting himself.
I suggest you read the above verses carefully and deeply.
This is agreed and qualified by the commentator from your reference, i.e.


(i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds, and ALL that Islâm has forbidden);


The above "all that Islam has forbidden" implied what is forbidden* in the Quran and no where else and not from the inclinations of Muhammad. *This also apply to what is permitted in the Quran and other conditions therein.


What is Islam is solely what is in the Quran and no where else. Note [mine];
5:3 This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM.


Whatever that is stated by Muhammad and claimed as Islamic must comply with the Quran and nothing else.
Therefore the rule e.g. 'hijab to cover the Muslimah's hair' cannot be an Islamic Law because it is not stated as forbidden in the Quran. This principle applies to all other similar rulings that are not in the Quran.
The Ahadiths are merely expositions and explanatory notes which are vulnerable and prone to errors as I had pointed out in another post.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/42750346-post3.html


The conventional claim that Islam is Quran + Hadiths [authentic] is wrong in principle as Allah NEVER sanction the compilation of the Ahadiths by man. According to Allah, it is great sin to add words to what Allah has perfected and completed [5:3].
Note there are Muslims [the Quranists, Submitters] who reject the Ahadiths totally as representative of Islam.


Many Muslims recognized Islam is Quran + Hadiths + Sira, where the Sira is disputed by other Muslims.


The point is there is no central authority within Islam to decide who is right or who is wrong.
In this case, the most true representation of Islam in essence is the Quran, i.e. Allah's own words as in 5:3.
The problem is you are stating what you believe Muslims should believe. Which is a bit different from what many of us believe.

One major difference is in regards to the Ahadith (Ahadith is the plural form of Hadith and in English would be Hadiths). The Ahadith not the Qur'an are the source for learning how to perform Islam.

The only Ahadith that were requested to be written are the 40 al-Qudsi, which we believe are the ones that while spoken in the words of Muhammad(saws) were directly inspired by Allaah(swt) and the only ones that Muhammad(saws) requested to be written.

Quote:
The Ahadiths are merely expositions and explanatory notes which are vulnerable and prone to errors as I had pointed out in another post.
the Ahadith are eyewitness accounts. they are what actual people saw and heard. They are not commands nor were they written under the direction of Muhammad(saws) yes they are only as accurate as the memory of the witness. For that reason in a study of Hadith one must how the various compilations came to be. Why their are rules of authenticity and how we must understand those rules along with the rules of reliability.

The more witnesses we can trace to an event, the greater is the probability the event took place (Authenticity) the more the accounts are alike the greater the probability we have a record of what actually was said and or done (reliability)

When one has an understanding and references to what Muhammad(saws) did and said we have a guideline as to how he practiced Islam. Those are the only instructions we have as to how Islam is to be practiced. It is our only guide as to how Muhammad(saws) and his companions understood the Qur'an.

It also must be remembered that the Qur'an is 114 separate books. They all share one message that being: There is only one God(swt) and only He is to be worshiped. Outside of that Each book is unique and does not necessarily relate to any of the other 113 books. While the word Surah (also spelled sura) translates into the English as chapter and Surat as chapters, it is not accurate as Book and Books are much closer in meaning.

Going back to your example:

Quote:
The above 7:157 must be read in the context of the following verses [words of Allah]
50:45 We are best aware of what they [infidels] say, and thou (O Muhammad) art in no wise a compeller over them [infidels]. But warn by the Qur’an him [Muslim] who feareth My threat.

43:24 (And the warner) said: What! Even though I bring you better guidance than that ye found your fathers following? They answered: Lo! in what ye bring we are disbelievers.

2:213 Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that it might judge between mankind concerning that wherein they differed. And only those unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed concerning it, after clear proofs had come unto them, through hatred one of another. And Allah by His Will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

2:119 Lo! We have sent thee (O Muhammad) with the truth, a bringer of glad tidings and a warner. And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire.
Surah 7 is not related to 50, 23 and 2 The context of them has no relationship to surah 7 although 6 and 7 are closely related and each reiterates the other.

Every Surah must first be taken within the context of it self.

7:157 must be read in the context of 7:59-171 to understand it and not try to relate it to any ayyat outside of Surah 7 59-171 which is an individual discourse within the Surah and relates to
Quote:
Events from the lives of some well-known Prophets -- Noah, Hud, Salih, Lot, Shu`aib, Moses (Allah's peace be upon them all) -- have been related to show the consequences of the rejection of the Message, and the addressees of Prophet Muhammad (Allah's peace be upon him) have been admonished to accept and follow the Message in order to escape perdition.
Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #7

50-45 has to be read in the context of Surah 50 which is a single discourse speaking of the hereafter. ayyat 45 is difficult to translate into English as can be seen by the variations among translators..

Quote:

Qaf - 50:45
نَحْنُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يَقُولُونَ وَمَا أَنتَ عَلَيْهِم بِجَبَّارٍ فَذَكِّرْ بِالْقُرْآنِ مَن يَخَافُ وَعِيدِ (50:45)

Nahnu aAAlamu bima yaqooloona wama anta AAalayhim bijabbarin fathakkir bialqurani man yakhafu waAAeedi

Fully aware are We of what they [who deny resurrection] do say; and thou canst by no means force them [to believe in it]. Yet none the less, remind, through this Qur’an, all such as may fear My warning. - 50:45 (Asad)

We know best what they say; and thou art not one to overawe them by force. So admonish with the Qur'an such as fear My Warning! - 50:45 (Y. Ali)

We are best aware of what they say, and thou (O Muhammad) art in no wise a compeller over them. But warn by the Qur'an him who feareth My threat. - 50:45 (Picktall)
But waAAeedi as a stand alone phrase means "by my warning" which indicates that in this surah the Qur'an is the Warner. which also is in the context of surah 50 which
Quote:
This reason for this importance can be easily understood by a careful study of the Surah. The theme of the entire Surah is the Hereafter. When the Holy Prophet started preaching his message in Makkah what surprised the people most was the news that people would be resurrected after death, and they would have to render an account of their deeds. They said that that was impossible; human mind could not believe that that would happen. After all, how could it be possible that when the body had disintegrated into dust the scattered particles would be reassembled after hundreds of thousands of years to make up the same body once again and raised up as a living body, Allah in response sent down this discourse. In it, on the one hand, arguments have been given for the possibility and occurrence of the Hereafter in a brief way, in short sentences, and, on the other, the people have been warned, as if to say:
Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #50
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Old 01-29-2016, 12:15 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Addressing this first, others later.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The problem is you are stating what you believe Muslims should believe. Which is a bit different from what many of us believe.
Nah, what I am stating is what Muslims should believe in accordance to Allah's words as in the Quran.


I have not introduced any thing that is of my words.
I have always refer to the Quran and nothing else. What else is Islam other than what is revealed by Allah in his so claimed completed, perfected and final Quran.

The duty of a Muslim is to comply with the covenant entered into with Allah with its terms and conditions in the Quran as revealed to Muhammad via Gabriel in the period 610-32AD.


The Ahadith are merely explanatory notes, expositions to guide those weaker Muslims. To be proper, these Ahadiths must comply with the Quran and nothing else.
The Ahadith do not carry any divine authority at all.
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Old 01-29-2016, 03:26 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
One major difference is in regards to the Ahadith (Ahadith is the plural form of Hadith and in English would be Hadiths). The Ahadith not the Qur'an are the source for learning how to perform Islam.
Such a view of yours is wrong in principle.
Your term ' Quran not source to perform Islam' is wrong, misleading and dangerous if you imply that is obligatory and imperative and one SHOULD and MUST obey the Ahadiths absolutely.


What is critical is the core principles and doctrine of Islam which is only contained in the Quran and no where else.


For example, the two main and critical core principles of Islam are
1. There is no god but God. Quran 3:16
2. Muhammad is the messenger of God. Quran 33:40
Therefore when a person declare the above two statements, s/he is initiated as a Muslims and agreement of the covenant with God is implied.


Now how the above declarations are performed is secondary because Allah knows what is in the 'heart' of each Muslim.
A Muslim can declared [performed] the above [3:16, 33:40] in terms of the 'Sahadah' infront of a witness or witnesses which is established by humans not Allah. This Sahadah is secondary. One can declared the above two statements in many ways, softly, solemnly, loudly, in a song, etc. as long as it is sincere.


As you can see what is critical is the verses and elements in the Quran that is most critical.
If the Ahadiths recommend the Sahadah, then it is merely a recommendation but not an imperative rule that one must perform the Sahadah in a specific way to be a Muslim.


Therefore the critical sources of the doctrines and principles are in the Quran and no where else.
The Ahadiths are merely secondary guides to how one could [not should] comply with the Quran.

Quote:
The only Ahadith that were requested to be written are the 40 al-Qudsi, which we believe are the ones that while spoken in the words of Muhammad(saws) were directly inspired by Allaah(swt) and the only ones that Muhammad(saws) requested to be written.
Regardless which and how a Muslims should view the Ahadiths, they are in principle secondary, are mere guides and not obligatory for a Muslim.
The test of a Hadith as compliance with the Quran it to verify it against the verses in the Quran.


For example such a serious penalty of 'stoning to death for adultery' in a Hadith cannot be authentic [regardless the process of its verification] because it is not in the Quran.
This can be easily verified by any one who can read by checking the 6,236 verses of the Quran and there is no verse that sanction the penalty of 'stoning to death for adultery.'
Therefore every Hadiths must be verified against the verses in the claim to enable it to claim compliance with the words of Allah in the Quran.

Quote:
the Ahadith are eyewitness accounts. they are what actual people saw and heard. They are not commands nor were they written under the direction of Muhammad(saws) yes they are only as accurate as the memory of the witness. For that reason in a study of Hadith one must how the various compilations came to be. Why their are rules of authenticity and how we must understand those rules along with the rules of reliability.

The more witnesses we can trace to an event, the greater is the probability the event took place (Authenticity) the more the accounts are alike the greater the probability we have a record of what actually was said and or done (reliability)

When one has an understanding and references to what Muhammad(saws) did and said we have a guideline as to how he practiced Islam. Those are the only instructions we have as to how Islam is to be practiced. It is our only guide as to how Muhammad(saws) and his companions understood the Qur'an.
Note my point above,
The test of a Hadith as compliance with the Quran it to verify it against the verses in the Quran.
This can easily be done because Muslims have access to a copy of the Quran that is supposedly delivered by Allah via Gabriel to Muhammad.
We don't have to rely of Islamic scholars [probably bias]. We can easily verify each Hadiths against the verses in the Quran.

Quote:
It also must be remembered that the Qur'an is 114 separate books. They all share one message that being: There is only one God(swt) and only He is to be worshiped. Outside of that Each book is unique and does not necessarily relate to any of the other 113 books. While the word Surah (also spelled sura) translates into the English as chapter and Surat as chapters, it is not accurate as Book and Books are much closer in meaning.
That the Quran is 114 separate books is a frivolous point and carry no divinity essence. It is common sense, of intelligence & wisdom to divide any book into chapters and paragraphs to facilitate the communication of ideas to others.

One of my forte is the Philosophy of Religion together with expertise in its related subjects.
What is critical is we must deliberate the Quran as a whole in terms of its 6,236 verses where there are many repetitions of verses and ideas. What is needed is we must understand its core doctrines, what is the main message and what are the secondary points and understand where the other verses should stand in terms of criticalness to the central core doctrine.

From what I read of the Quran, its central points are the following;


1. Allah created humans to serve him as slaves and he promised to reward his slaves.
2. To serve him, a Muslim must enter into a covenant [agreement] with Allah.
3. [Those who do not made a covenant with Allah will go straight to Hell.]
4. The terms and conditions of the covenant to be complied are solely in the Quran.
5. Compliance with the terms in the Quran will enable Muslims to reap what is promised by Allah.
6. Non-compliance will result in punishments [of various degrees] on Judgment Day.


The above are the main processes of being a Muslim proper.
Any other requirements are the sub-processes of 1-6.


Can you dispute the above?


My view:
The above are principles are to explain Islam from the sole point of view of the Muslims.
As a non-Muslim and non-theist my view is the Quran and Islam was invented by Muhammad [or a group of men] to serve their own personal interests.
Subsequently various people around the world sustain the existence of Islam to serve their various personal interests, i.e. soteriological salvation, political advantage, control of the masses, etc.
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Old 01-29-2016, 04:34 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Such a view of yours is wrong in principle.
Your term ' Quran not source to perform Islam' is wrong, misleading and dangerous if you imply that is obligatory and imperative and one SHOULD and MUST obey the Ahadiths absolutely.


What is critical is the core principles and doctrine of Islam which is only contained in the Quran and no where else.


For example, the two main and critical core principles of Islam are
1. There is no god but God. Quran 3:16
2. Muhammad is the messenger of God. Quran 33:40
Therefore when a person declare the above two statements, s/he is initiated as a Muslims and agreement of the covenant with God is implied.


Now how the above declarations are performed is secondary because Allah knows what is in the 'heart' of each Muslim.
A Muslim can declared [performed] the above [3:16, 33:40] in terms of the 'Sahadah' infront of a witness or witnesses which is established by humans not Allah. This Sahadah is secondary. One can declared the above two statements in many ways, softly, solemnly, loudly, in a song, etc. as long as it is sincere.


As you can see what is critical is the verses and elements in the Quran that is most critical.
If the Ahadiths recommend the Sahadah, then it is merely a recommendation but not an imperative rule that one must perform the Sahadah in a specific way to be a Muslim.


Therefore the critical sources of the doctrines and principles are in the Quran and no where else.
The Ahadiths are merely secondary guides to how one could [not should] comply with the Quran.

Regardless which and how a Muslims should view the Ahadiths, they are in principle secondary, are mere guides and not obligatory for a Muslim.
The test of a Hadith as compliance with the Quran it to verify it against the verses in the Quran.


For example such a serious penalty of 'stoning to death for adultery' in a Hadith cannot be authentic [regardless the process of its verification] because it is not in the Quran.
This can be easily verified by any one who can read by checking the 6,236 verses of the Quran and there is no verse that sanction the penalty of 'stoning to death for adultery.'
Therefore every Hadiths must be verified against the verses in the claim to enable it to claim compliance with the words of Allah in the Quran.

Note my point above,
The test of a Hadith as compliance with the Quran it to verify it against the verses in the Quran.
This can easily be done because Muslims have access to a copy of the Quran that is supposedly delivered by Allah via Gabriel to Muhammad.
We don't have to rely of Islamic scholars [probably bias]. We can easily verify each Hadiths against the verses in the Quran.

That the Quran is 114 separate books is a frivolous point and carry no divinity essence. It is common sense, of intelligence & wisdom to divide any book into chapters and paragraphs to facilitate the communication of ideas to others.

One of my forte is the Philosophy of Religion together with expertise in its related subjects.
What is critical is we must deliberate the Quran as a whole in terms of its 6,236 verses where there are many repetitions of verses and ideas. What is needed is we must understand its core doctrines, what is the main message and what are the secondary points and understand where the other verses should stand in terms of criticalness to the central core doctrine.

From what I read of the Quran, its central points are the following;


1. Allah created humans to serve him as slaves and he promised to reward his slaves.
2. To serve him, a Muslim must enter into a covenant [agreement] with Allah.
3. [Those who do not made a covenant with Allah will go straight to Hell.]
4. The terms and conditions of the covenant to be complied are solely in the Quran.
5. Compliance with the terms in the Quran will enable Muslims to reap what is promised by Allah.
6. Non-compliance will result in punishments [of various degrees] on Judgment Day.


The above are the main processes of being a Muslim proper.
Any other requirements are the sub-processes of 1-6.


Can you dispute the above?


My view:
The above are principles are to explain Islam from the sole point of view of the Muslims.
As a non-Muslim and non-theist my view is the Quran and Islam was invented by Muhammad [or a group of men] to serve their own personal interests.
Subsequently various people around the world sustain the existence of Islam to serve their various personal interests, i.e. soteriological salvation, political advantage, control of the masses, etc.
Looking at these 6 points

1. Allah created humans to serve him as slaves and he promised to reward his slaves.
2. To serve him, a Muslim must enter into a covenant [agreement] with Allah.
3. [Those who do not made a covenant with Allah will go straight to Hell.]
4. The terms and conditions of the covenant to be complied are solely in the Quran.
5. Compliance with the terms in the Quran will enable Muslims to reap what is promised by Allah.
6. Non-compliance will result in punishments [of various degrees] on Judgment Day.


1. We do not know nor understand why Allaah(swt) created Humans as he has no needs nor human attributes.

The Qur'an tells us we were created to Worship Allaah(swt)
And I did not Create the jinn and humans except they should worship Me. [Noble Quran 51:56]

And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is the best in deeds. But if you were to say to them: "You shall indeed be raised up after death," those who disbelieve would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious magic." [Noble Quran 11:7]

By that we know what our purpose is, but we do not know the "Why". We do not fill any need as Allaah(swt) has no needs.
35:15 ﮤﮥﮦﮧﮨﮩﮪﮫﮬﮭﮮﮯﮰ
Sahih International
O mankind, you are those in need of Allah , while Allah is the Free of need, the Praiseworthy.

2. False: although a person must perform Islam to the best of one's ability and knowledge. Even a person with no knowledge of any covenant can reach heaven

3. False

"Nay-whoever submits his whole self to Allah and is a doer of good He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (The Noble Quran, 2:112)"

"(O Muslims) Your (real) friends are Allah, His Messenger [Muhammad], and the (Fellowship Of) Believers, those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship). (The Noble Quran, 5:55)" And also "Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true of faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend. (The Noble Quran, 4:125)"

"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. (The Noble Quran, 2:186)"

"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. (The Noble Quran, 2:186)"

4. False as in order to perform Islam we must follow the Teachings of Muhammad(saws) No where does the Qur'an tell us HOW to worship Allaah(swt)

"Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes for (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much." (Quran: 33/21)
"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): ‘If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow Quran and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.’ Say (O Muhammad): ‘Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad).’ But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers." (Quran: 3/31)

"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) and render not vain your deeds." (Quran: 47/33)

5. Only partially true as the Qur'an does not instruct us as how we should comply.

6. Is mostly true, however we can and will receive some of our rewards and punishments prior to judgement day. all people will receive rewards for their good deeds, even those that will enter Hell on Judgement day. Like wise we will all be punished for the evil we do, even those who go to heaven on Judgement day. Therefore some punishments and rewards will occur before judgement day.
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Old 01-29-2016, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Looking at these 6 points

1. Allah created humans to serve him as slaves and he promised to reward his slaves.
2. To serve him, a Muslim must enter into a covenant [agreement] with Allah.
3. [Those who do not made a covenant with Allah will go straight to Hell.]
4. The terms and conditions of the covenant to be complied are solely in the Quran.
5. Compliance with the terms in the Quran will enable Muslims to reap what is promised by Allah.
6. Non-compliance will result in punishments [of various degrees] on Judgment Day.


1. We do not know nor understand why Allaah(swt) created Humans as he has no needs nor human attributes.

The Qur'an tells us we were created to Worship Allaah(swt)
And I did not Create the jinn and humans except they should worship Me. [Noble Quran 51:56]

And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is the best in deeds. But if you were to say to them: "You shall indeed be raised up after death," those who disbelieve would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious magic." [Noble Quran 11:7]
Obviously you do not know Allah's purpose why he created humans before you read the Quran.
But after reading 51:56 Allah stated why he created humans and Jinns.


Note 'worshipping Allah' is tied up with the threats of Hell punishments and the promises of heaven for humans who worshipping accordingly.


[/quote]By that we know what our purpose is, but we do not know the "Why". We do not fill any need as Allaah(swt) has no needs.
35:15 ﮤﮥﮦﮧﮨﮩﮪﮫﮬﮭﮮﮯﮰ
Sahih International
O mankind, you are those in need of Allah , while Allah is the Free of need, the Praiseworthy.[/quote]I know what my purpose of life is.
You don't know because you are caught in the trap of ignorance, denial and self-deception to protect your existential dilemma bubble.


Allah may not have every other need but except one, i.e. as stated in 51:56, i.e. to worship him. If that is not a need, then what it is?



Quote:
2. False: although a person must perform Islam to the best of one's ability and knowledge. Even a person with no knowledge of any covenant can reach heaven.
Note the term "covenant" is explicitly mentioned 53 times in the Quran and many times in other senses.


I have mentioned there is an existence of "implied covenant" as in "implied contracts."
When most Muslims declared the Sahadah, they do not interpret it in terms as a "covenant." They are not aware they have entered into a "covenant" [as intended in the Quran] with Allah.
Note my thread on "Covenant with Allah."


In ordinary life, implied contracts/agreements/pacts are made between people with common interest and a common objective without knowing they are making a contract. This is why in the case of disputes we need the lawyers to decipher the contracts and the terms, then for the courts, judge or jury to decide which party is wrong or right.


Note I am very familiar with the Principles of Contract.
Here is a definition of an "implied contract"
As defined by the United States Supreme Court, it is "an agreement 'implied in fact'" as "founded upon a meeting of minds, which, although not embodied in an express contract, is inferred, as a fact, from conduct of the parties showing, in the light of the surrounding circumstances, their tacit understanding."
The intended "covenant with Allah" is implied from the conducts of Muslims interaction with the elements of the Quran.


Any dispute to the above?

Quote:
3. False

"Nay-whoever submits his whole self to Allah and is a doer of good He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (The Noble Quran, 2:112)"

"(O Muslims) Your (real) friends are Allah, His Messenger [Muhammad], and the (Fellowship Of) Believers, those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship). (The Noble Quran, 5:55)" And also "Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true of faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend. (The Noble Quran, 4:125)"

"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. (The Noble Quran, 2:186)"

"When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. (The Noble Quran, 2:186)"
You counter is off target.
It is stated in the Quran explicitly, disbelievers will go to Hell and be tortured eternally.

Quote:
4. False as in order to perform Islam we must follow the Teachings of Muhammad(saws) No where does the Qur'an tell us HOW to worship Allaah(swt)

"Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes for (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much." (Quran: 33/21)
"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): ‘If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow Quran and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.’ Say (O Muhammad): ‘Obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad).’ But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers." (Quran: 3/31)

"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) and render not vain your deeds." (Quran: 47/33)
In any organization or system of activities of an ideology, the central overriding authority is always from the "Constitution" of principles, doctrines, rules, and essential elements.
The "Constitution" is always supported by subsidiaries policies, processes, procedures and guidelines and these must be aligned with the central themes of the main Constitution. Any policy that is not in line with the Constitution will be rejected.


I have opened a thread to argue the point on 'obey Muhammad.' Whatever that is to be obeyed of Muhammad and valid as Islamic must comply with the Quran and nothing else.


As claimed in a Hadith that Muhammad established the rule "adulterers are to be stone to death." This cannot be Islamic because Allah did not sanction such a serious rule in the Quran [the sole source of the direct words of Allah].
Therefore which ever of the 7,000++ hadiths that do not comply with the Quran must be rejected as non-Islamic.
There is no stopping Muslims from adopting whatever hadith for their purpose, but whichever hadiths that do not comply with the doctrine and words of Allah in the Quran, then it must be rejected.


Agree?



Quote:
5. Only partially true as the Qur'an does not instruct us as how we should comply.
As I mentioned the covenant between Allah and a Muslim exist at least in the implied form.
All the relevant main and some detailed terms and conditions are stipulated in the Quran.
It is nonsensical to expect Allah to be long winded with every detailed procedure to direct what a Muslim should do [the How].
It is sufficient for Allah to stipulate a Muslim must pray and there is no need to be specific about its form.


Woodrow LI: "the Qur'an does not instruct us as how we should comply"
You are in denial here and in a way insulting Allah.
Note Allah provided some details relating compliance relating to Wudu in the Quran.
In fact such details are unnecessary.
The basic principle and rule could "One has to be as clean as possible before one start to pray." There is no need for Allah to instruct a Muslim to use sand or earth [which could be contaminated in other locations].
There are many other details procedures and rules in the Quran, e.g. distribution of the spoils of wars, on testacy [distribution of property of the deceased], etc.




Quote:
6. Is mostly true, however we can and will receive some of our rewards and punishments prior to judgement day. all people will receive rewards for their good deeds, even those that will enter Hell on Judgement day. Like wise we will all be punished for the evil we do, even those who go to heaven on Judgement day. Therefore some punishments and rewards will occur before judgement day.
The rewards on Earth for Muslims is secondary as the Quran said so where rewards of the hereafter are umpteen times better than what is reward on Earth.


What is most critical is the terrible and of horrors in relation to eternal punishment in Hell where one skin is replaced eternally after one is burnt. [Such an intention is immoral, vile, abominable and sadistic].


Btw, we have gone through the above points and arguments many times but you have never counter my points convincingly. As a matter on empathy and compassion, I have no issue with such forgetful of yours as I understand you are at an age where short term memory is a natural hindrance.
I hope you could make constant reference to these repeated arguments so as to save [& have some mercy on] me the effort of making numerous repetitions.


Covenant with Allah
In Islam, What Is a Covenant With Allah?


What 'Obeying' Muhammad Means
24:54 Obey Allah and obey the Messenger
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Old 01-30-2016, 10:22 PM
 
Location: quiet place
271 posts, read 214,198 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post

Going back to your example:


Surah 7 is not related to 50, 23 and 2 The context of them has no relationship to surah 7 although 6 and 7 are closely related and each reiterates the other.

Every Surah must first be taken within the context of it self.

7:157 must be read in the context of 7:59-171 to understand it and not try to relate it to any ayyat outside of Surah 7 59-171 which is an individual discourse within the Surah and relates to Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #7

50-45 has to be read in the context of Surah 50 which is a single discourse speaking of the hereafter. ayyat 45 is difficult to translate into English as can be seen by the variations among translators..


But waAAeedi as a stand alone phrase means "by my warning" which indicates that in this surah the Qur'an is the Warner. which also is in the context of surah 50 which Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #50
May Allah reward you the Janah my brother woodrow LI, I agree with you on the quoted above

I guess that Continuum is just an interrupter ( irrelevant points ), I guess if someone posts about sports in Islam for instance, Continuum will interrupt it with the red word ( Warner) :/ .
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Old 01-30-2016, 11:34 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
But waAAeedi as a stand alone phrase means "by my warning" which indicates that in this surah the Qur'an is the Warner. which also is in the context of surah 50 which Syed Maududi's Commentary for Surah #50
The Quran [the message] cannot be the Warner.
The message contain the 'warnings'.
Allah is actually the original and direct warner.
Muhammad is the indirect warner.


Logically and rationally, the context is as follows;


The Quran contain Allah's warning to mankind.
Muhammad is the 'warner' in the sense he is the conveyor of those warnings in the Quran.
Whatever Muhammad act as warner, it is confined to the Quran.


In other verses Muhammad is the conveyor of Allah words and warnings;
3:20 ... then it is thy duty only to convey the message (unto them). Allah is Seer of (His) bondmen.


In other verses Muhammad is one who remind [reminder];
7:63 Marvel ye that there should come unto you a reminder from your Lord by means of a man among you, that he may warn you, and that ye may keep from evil, and that haply ye may find mercy.

Your messing with the term "waAAeedi" is a deflection and waste of time.
The above verses where Allah proclaimed Muhammad as a conveyor, reminder, & warner is self-explanatory.


To claim the 'Quran is the warner' is intellectually ridiculous.
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:05 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Islam, collectively, means obeying commands from Allah.
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