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Old 02-03-2016, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the rule of abrogation.


Chronologically,


Chapter 42 [Meccan] is Chapter 82 chronologically, whereas
Chapter 4 [Medina] is Chapter 100 chronologically
Chapter 9 [Medina] is Chapter 113 chronologically

4:168 Lo! those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road,

9:113 It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire.


Therefore the above verses in relation to 'forgiveness' in chapter 4 and 9 abrogate/override whatever intention is in chapter 42.
This is most in accordance to the ethos of Islam in accordance to the Quran.
Abrogation is probably either the most misunderstood or the most misrepresented concept of Islam found on the anti-Islamic sites.

No Surah has ever been overridden by a later surah. No ayyat replaces any earlier ayyat.

The Meccan Surat are still valid and none have been voided by the Medina Surat.

There has been Abrogation in the Qur'an but it dowes not mean the later Surat replaced the earlier surat., that is an error first developed by poorly educated Muslims and expounded upon by non-Muslims.


To understand the Islamic view of the Qur'an, one needs to look at the opinions of the Scholars. While these are fairly long discourses I am just posting key paragraphs and a link to each.

Quote:
‘THE LIE OF ABROGATION’

Introduction

The abrogation of Quranic verses, arguably the greatest lie against the Quran, was originally invented during the fourth century A.H. (late 10th century A.D.) by some Muslim scholars notably Ahmed Bin Ishaq Al-Dinary (died 318 A.H.), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-Asbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is regarded as one of the leading references in the subject.

According to this concept, it is claimed that some verses in the Quran are abrogated and invalidated by other verses!

The verse that is the abrogator they call (Al-Nasekh) while the abrogated verse they call (Al-Mansoukh).

These scholars have come up with hundreds of cases of abrogated verses to the extent that they have formulated a whole science of the subject filling lengthy books and references.

Although the concept was originally invented by Muslim scholars as a result of their poor understanding of the Quran, yet it has been widely exploited by anti-Quranic writers to tarnish the perfection and divinity of the book.

Quran-Islam.org - True Islam
Quote:
Yet, some commentators have brought up this issue of abrogation. They agree that many verses of the Qur’an set conditions for fighting against the non-Muslims, but they say that other verses have been revealed that abrogate all those instructions and conditions. Thus, we come to the issue of abrogations, about that which abrogates and that which is abrogated.

Some think that the first verse of Surah at-Tawba - which issues the complete command of jihad and immunity to the polytheists, fixing a period for them to stay in Mecca after which they had to leave and the Muslims were to besiege them in their fortifications and hiding places and kill them, and which, furthermore, was revealed in the ninth year of the Hejira - has in one blow abrogated all the instructions about jihad that were previously revealed. Is this the correct view?

No, this view is incorrect. Why? For two reasons. One is that we can only consider a verse to have abrogated another when it is incompatible with it. Imagine a verse being revealed commanding not to fight the polytheists at all followed by another allowing for fight. Good. This would mean that God has canceled the previous instruction.
Lecture Four: The Question of Abrogation | Jihad The Holy War of Islam and Its Legitimacy in the Quran | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org
There are 3 types of abrogation done in the Qur'an none of which are what the anti-Islam sites tell people. contrary to what the anti-Islamic sites promote, the Medina Surat do not invalidate the Meccan Surat. (Surat is the plural of Surah) For the most part abrogation refers to changes in the Sunna or Sharian based upon the Qur'an not because of changes in the Qur'an

Quote:
There were several points of wisdom behind abrogation in early Islam. For centuries, human societies lived a certain kind of life: closer to beastly than human. Their situation could only be changed gradually. That required allowing certain things in the early stages of change and development, to be disallowed later. Later generations would not need the same measures because they would be in an already transformed society, in which they would not need to struggle against the rest of the world to follow Islam. As for the contingency itself, the scholars are agreed that in its early days, Islam was passing through special circumstances which required special rulings, accommodative of the prevailing situation. They were repealed once those very circumstances disappeared.

Abrogation
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Old 02-03-2016, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resigned View Post
patience and forgiveness is highly rewarded Jessica

" Only those who are patient shall receive their rewards in full, without reckoning."

Surah 39. verse 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't think the above interpretation is accurate.


The critical concept here is not 'patient' itself but the attitude of perseverance observing one's duty to Allah and in compliance with the expectation of Allah as stipulated in the Quran.
When one use 'patient' is it more accurate to introduce the context, i.e. patient in doing what?
Therefore you need to introduce the full 39:10 to get the context,
39:10. Say: O My bondmen [Muslims] who believe! Observe your duty to your Lord. For those [Muslims] who do good in this world there is good, and Allah's earth is spacious. Verily the steadfast [Muslims] will be paid their wages without stint.
One can be patient in committing sins. So to use the term 'patient' alone is non effective.


Other translators used the term "steadfast." i.e.
1. firm in purpose, resolution, faith, attachment, etc., as a person: a steadfast friend.

2. unwavering, as resolution, faith, adherence, etc.
Steadfast | Define Steadfast at Dictionary.com


Btw, observing one's duty to Allah do not entail extending forgiveness to one who is a disbeliever and has done wrong as in this OP.

What do you base this upon?

Quote:
Btw, observing one's duty to Allah do not entail extending forgiveness to one who is a disbeliever and has done wrong as in this OP.
We have a very strong obligation to treat non-Muslims fairly and to Uphold all agreements we have with them.

Quote:
The God-given status of humanity forms the basis of the principle of human dignity in Islam, whether the person is Muslim or non-Muslim. Islam emphasizes the origin of all humanity is one; therefore all human beings have certain rights over one another. God says:

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (and not hate one another). Surely, the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who) is the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)." (Quran 49:13)

The Messenger of God declared in his farewell sermon, addressing the largest gathering in Arab history till that point:

"People, hear that your Lord is One, and that your father is one. You must know that no Arab has superiority over a non-Arab, no non-Arab has superiority over an Arab, or a red man over a black man, or a black man over a red, except in terms of what each person has of piety. Have I delivered the message?"[1]

An example of the preservation of the human dignity of non-Muslims is the right that their feelings be respected, for example, that they are shown good manners in speech and debate in obedience to the divine command:

"And dispute you not with the People of the Scripture, except in the best way, unless it be with those who do wrong, but say, ‘We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we submit (in Islam).’" (Quran 21:46)

Non-Muslims have the right not to have their religious beliefs mocked. It may not be an exaggeration to state that no other religion or sect in the world is as fair as Islam to people of other faiths. For example, let us look at a verse from the Quran:

"Say, ‘Who gives you sustenance from the heavens and the earth?’ Say, ‘It is God; and it is certain that either we or you are on the right guidance or in manifest error.’" (Quran 34:24)

The verse ends with what Arabs linguists call a rhetorical question whose answer is common knowledge to the intended audience. The verse blends certainty with doubt: Muslims following guidance and the error of the unbelievers is presented as something doubtful. In doing so, God emphasizes the truth by allowing the reader to draw his own conclusion. God does not state in this verse who is following guidance and who is not. The verse treats the fictitious "opponent" with justice by presenting the argument and allowing the listener to judge. Az-Zamakhshiri, a classical linguist and exegete of the Quran, elaborates this point:

‘This is equitable speech: whoever hears it, supporter or opponent, will tell the person to whom the speech is directed that the speaker has treated him justly. It draws the listener to the inevitable conclusion, after the argument has been presented, that there is no doubt about who is following guidance and who is in error. Suggestion of the facts, as if the question were a conundrum, provides a more cogent proof of the truth, the opponent being gently disarmed, without resort to heated quarrelling.’[2]

An example of the style employed by the Quran would be someone saying in a debate, ‘God knows who is telling the truth and who is a liar.’[3]

God has also forbidden Muslims from speaking ill of the gods and deities worshipped by non-Muslims so that they do not speak ill of the One, True God. It will be difficult to find a similar example in any scripture of the major world religions. If the polytheists were to hear Muslims speak ill of their gods, it might lead them to speak ill of Allah (the personal and proper Name of God). Also, if Muslims were to speak ill of pagan gods, it might instigate the polytheists to soothe their wounded feelings by hurting the feelings of Muslims. Such a scenario is against human dignity of both sides and would lead to mutual rejection and hatred. God says in the Quran:

The Rights of Non-Muslims in Islam (All parts) - The Religion of Islam
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Old 02-03-2016, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Candy Kingdom
3,228 posts, read 2,854,499 times
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Hi everyone,

Sorry for an absence - I work two jobs and don't come on City-Data much anymore. Thanks for the well wishes and all of your help. I'm going to slowly look through Woodrow LI's links.

I'm not sure if this is good or not, but I have felt at peace this week.
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Old 02-03-2016, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Abrogation is probably either the most misunderstood or the most misrepresented concept of Islam found on the anti-Islamic sites.

No Surah has ever been overridden by a later surah. No ayyat replaces any earlier ayyat.

The Meccan Surat are still valid and none have been voided by the Medina Surat.

There has been Abrogation in the Qur'an but it dowes not mean the later Surat replaced the earlier surat., that is an error first developed by poorly educated Muslims and expounded upon by non-Muslims.


To understand the Islamic view of the Qur'an, one needs to look at the opinions of the Scholars. While these are fairly long discourses I am just posting key paragraphs and a link to each.


There are 3 types of abrogation done in the Qur'an none of which are what the anti-Islam sites tell people. contrary to what the anti-Islamic sites promote, the Medina Surat do not invalidate the Meccan Surat. (Surat is the plural of Surah) For the most part abrogation refers to changes in the Sunna or Sharian based upon the Qur'an not because of changes in the Qur'an
You cannot deny there is a verse by Allah on "abrogation."
13:39. Allah effaceth [abrogate, erase, delete] what He will, and establisheth (what He will), and with Him is the source [ultimate] of ordinance.


2:106. Such of Our revelations [verses in chapters] as We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one [verse] better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?
Based on 13:36 and 2:106 it is logical for most to interpret "abrogate" in the literal sense as the context in the verse stated "cause to be forgotten" and "bring on better or the like".
Therefore you cannot blame the non-Muslims who interpret it literally.
Btw, what is the equivalent Arabic word for "abrogate"


However I would interpret "abrogation" in the case of the Quran as not meaning "invalidate" or "abolish" totally.
I take it to mean the later ordinations of Allah override the earlier ones ultimately where it matters.
Thus the Medinian verses are not invalidated but where the matter is critical [e.g. "forgiveness" in this OP] the later verses override the earlier ones within the Quran itself.
If there is no abrogation rule, then the Quran will be full of contradictions.


The abrogation in 2:106 and 13:39 do not apply to the Sunna or Sharian at all. In fact, somewhere in the Quran, Allah predicted Muslims will invent new elements for Islam after the final complete perfect Quran and divide themselves into sects and Allah condemned it.


When non-Muslims interpret the abrogation rule in the Quran, they do it objectively based on the actual chronological history of Muhammad and Muhammad as the psychological man with human nature.
Non-Muslims believed it was Muhammad who authored the Quran and within the 23 years period his personality and thinking changed from the Mecca phase to the Medina phase. This is obvious and reflected in the Quran when the chapters are read chronologically.


Muslims who read the Quran with heavy emotional bias will complain the non-Muslims' objective reading of the Quran.
As you are aware, within humanity rationality and objectivity prevails over subjective and emotionally charged views.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You cannot deny there is a verse by Allah on "abrogation."
13:39. Allah effaceth [abrogate, erase, delete] what He will, and establisheth (what He will), and with Him is the source [ultimate] of ordinance.


2:106. Such of Our revelations [verses in chapters] as We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one [verse] better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?
Based on 13:36 and 2:106 it is logical for most to interpret "abrogate" in the literal sense as the context in the verse stated "cause to be forgotten" and "bring on better or the like".
Therefore you cannot blame the non-Muslims who interpret it literally.
Btw, what is the equivalent Arabic word for "abrogate"


However I would interpret "abrogation" in the case of the Quran as not meaning "invalidate" or "abolish" totally.
I take it to mean the later ordinations of Allah override the earlier ones ultimately where it matters.
Thus the Medinian verses are not invalidated but where the matter is critical [e.g. "forgiveness" in this OP] the later verses override the earlier ones within the Quran itself.
If there is no abrogation rule, then the Quran will be full of contradictions.


The abrogation in 2:106 and 13:39 do not apply to the Sunna or Sharian at all. In fact, somewhere in the Quran, Allah predicted Muslims will invent new elements for Islam after the final complete perfect Quran and divide themselves into sects and Allah condemned it.


When non-Muslims interpret the abrogation rule in the Quran, they do it objectively based on the actual chronological history of Muhammad and Muhammad as the psychological man with human nature.
Non-Muslims believed it was Muhammad who authored the Quran and within the 23 years period his personality and thinking changed from the Mecca phase to the Medina phase. This is obvious and reflected in the Quran when the chapters are read chronologically.


Muslims who read the Quran with heavy emotional bias will complain the non-Muslims' objective reading of the Quran.
As you are aware, within humanity rationality and objectivity prevails over subjective and emotionally charged views.
To understand Islam you should learn how Muslims understand it. The anti-Islamic sites give a very distorted view and often base their views upon English language Western culture concepts.

Replying to this part:

However I would interpret "abrogation" in the case of the Quran as not meaning "invalidate" or "abolish" totally.
I take it to mean the later ordinations of Allah override the earlier ones ultimately where it matters.
Thus the Medinian verses are not invalidated but where the matter is critical [e.g. "forgiveness" in this OP] the later verses override the earlier ones within the Quran itself.
If there is no abrogation rule, then the Quran will be full of contradictions.



Quote:
Abrogation in Islam recognizes that one rule might not always be suitable for every situation. Far from Allah changing His mind, abrogation demonstrates the wisdom of Allah in legislating rules for their appropriate time and context. For most rules in Islam, there exist circumstances that warrant an exception to the rule. The righteous predecessors would often use the word abrogation in this sense of specification, exception, or clarification.

Ibn Rajab writes:

وَقَدْ يَكُونُ مُرَادُهُمْ بِالنَّسْخِ الْبَيَانَ وَالْإِيضَاحَ فَإِنَّ السَّلَفَ كَانُوا يُطْلِقُونَ النَّسْخَ عَلَى مِثْلِ ذَلِكَ كَثِيرًا

Their intended meaning of the word ‘abrogation’ is explanation and clarification. Indeed, the righteous predecessors would often use the word abrogation in this way.

Source: Kalimat Al-Ikhlas 24

The technical meaning of abrogation differs in the scholarly literature and there is not an agreed upon definition for what exactly constitutes abrogation. For this reason, scholars greatly differed in the number of verses they considered to be abrogated, such as Ibn Hazim who considered as many as two hundred verses to be abrogated, As-Suyuti who considered twenty verses to be abrogated, or Shah Waliullah who considered only five verses to be truly abrogated.

Nevertheless, the concept is valid and essential for interpreting the Quran, even though scholars tend to disagree on its exact definition and details. The classic example of abrogation in the Quran is the gradual prohibition of alcohol.

Hence, from such experiences we can appreciate the wisdom of the Quran’s gradual approach and we see clearly that, although the ruling of some verses was replaced, their lessons were not annulled.

In summary, abrogation is an important principle for understanding the Quran. It is often misrepresented by anti-Muslim writers and even some Muslims as a complete negation or annulment of verses, although the reality is that it involves the ability to distinguish which verses are general, specific, or restricted in Islam.

When interpreting the Quran, we must be careful not to take isolated verses out of context. The phenomenon of abrogation requires us to compile all the verses and traditions on a given subject and to refer to their scholarly commentaries before issuing a judgment from the Quran and Sunnah.

Abrogation and specification in the Quran | Faith in Allah
An error often made by the anti-Islam sites is their insistence that the Qur'an is a stand alone scripture and that it teaches how to perform Islam.

The Sunnah is a very important part of Islam as that contains how the revelations were to be understood. At the time, of the revelations, Muhammad(saws) was present and able to explain what was being said and why. This was the Sunnah. As we do not have the physical presence of Muhammad(saws) to explain we have rely upon the writings of the companions that were present, to learn the Sunnah.

Quote:
The Quran and the Sunnah complement each other. Without the Sunnah, Islam is not complete, likewise without the Quran, Islam is not complete.

Actually, Sunnah is so important that without it one cannot fully understand the Quran and Islam, or be able to apply it to his life. Both of these sources guide us to the right path.

The Quran is the word of Allah, whereas the Sunnah is its practical interpretation. Sunnah also gives a full account of the life of the Prophet salallaahu alayhi wa sallam.

The Quran principally deals with basics. It is the Sunnah which gives the details and necessary explanations of Quranic injunctions. For instance, Allah Says in the Quran what means: "…Establish the prayer…” [2: 43] But it does not specify how the prayer has to be performed.
The Sunnah The second source of legislation
Islam is composed of 3 Branches of organization and each is a vital part of what Constitutes Islam. It is very similar to how the US government has been designed

Executive Branch--Qur'an
Legislative Branch--Sunnah
Judicial Branch---Shariah
The "Abrogations" in the Qur'an affect the Sunnah and the Shariah but do not change the Qur'an.

Fiqh was established during the lifetime of Muhammad(saws) and runs parellel with the revelation of the Qur'an

Quote:
4. Any claim of Naskh [abrogation or more correctly supercession] must be carefully examined. The entire Qur’an is definitively authentic [Qat`i Al-Thuboot]. Any claim of Nashk must be definitive, not based on mere opinion or speculation. It should be noted that earlier Muslims used the term “Naskh” to refer also to “Takhsees” or specifying and limiting the ruling than abrogating it. This issue is of paramount importance, since the Muslim heritage includes writings that went into unreasonable excesses in their claims of Naskh. While a few scholars claimed that hundreds of verses were abrogated, the great majority of scholars rejected these unsubstantiated claims. For example, Jalal Al-din Al-Suyooti narrowed down the number of “abrogated” verses to 19. Other scholars like Shah Waliyyullah Al-Dahlawi and Sobhi Al-Saleh even narrowed them down to lesser numbers6. The fact that there are legitimate disagreements about the number of abrogated verses in the Qur’an is itself an indication that some, if not most, of these claims are far from definitive, if not mistaken based on strong evidence

Guided by the above methodology, we move next to review the Qur’anic values and precepts, which represent the underpinning of Muslim/Non-Muslim Relationship.
MUSLIM/ NON-MUSLIM RELATIONS | Fiqh Council Of North America
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